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tovlo4801
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Kathryn UK wrote:
A Charlotte Mason education, as defined by CM herself, is nothing like unschooling (by any definition I can think of). Elements of a CM education can be taken and used very successfully as part of any type of homeschooling - ranging from highly structured classical education to highly flexible unschooling - but a structured CM education just isn't, and IMO can't be, unschooling.
I enjoyed Homeschooling With Gentleness, from my perspective as a dyed-in-the-wool non-unschooler. It gave me food for thought and helped me to be gentler in the way we homeschool, though it didn't convince me of the case for unschooling. |
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Kathryn,
I don't know if this quote was in response to my question about the distinctions between CM and unschooling, but I appreciate the perspective. I think I've been on a search for a particular way of looking at the education of my children that feels instinctively right to me. I've seen it in both the way unschooling has been presented here (perhaps not "true" unschooling) and also in what I'm reading about CM. I've dismissed the structure difference as minor when, of course, it's not. It's just not the key to what's attracting me to both. I just love how both philosophies seem to indicate that kids will learn if presented with engaging material and teachers should take a step back and let that learning develop to some extent naturally. Obviously there is likely a vast difference between the degree a CM educator and an unschooler would step back, but I really like that general perspective and I think I've seen it in both places.
I'm glad you included the comment about HWG helping you take a gentler approach to your homeschooling, because that's the thread I've picked up in both philosophies. That respect for the child, the teacher's humility about their limitations, and a gentler tone is exactly what deep down I was looking for.
I can see what you're saying about there being no reason this way of seeing education couldn't be applied with great success to any number of types of homeschooling. I have not yet really seen such a gentle perspective applied to the classical. I bought the Ignatian education book Willa and Janet have mentioned and maybe when I read that I will find this same perspective in the classical approach too?
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Leonie
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Willa and Kathryn,
I think it is the gentleness of Suzie Andres' approach to Catholic unschooling that appeals to me. And her gentleness in writing in her discussion on Catholic unschooling in HWG.
I think it can be all too easy to attempt to reduce education and parenting to a recipe - to do all the plans and do "everything right", as Willa says - but not actually do it , live it, day by day.
My dc do work, academic and household work, that I ask of them. One could say assign them. This, too, is part of their education. For me, being influenced by both Catholic unschooling and Catholic CM, spending time with my children is paramount and matters more than having detailed educational plans.
I don't have such plans.  But the dc and I do learn and I do have general plans and I do encourage the will to work and study. But I am trying to do this with gentleness, as Suzie describes, in all the little ways of my homeschool life.
Leonie in Sydney
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Kathryn UK
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tovlo4801 wrote:
Kathryn,
I don't know if this quote was in response to my question about the distinctions between CM and unschooling, but I appreciate the perspective. |
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I think it was  . I was in too much of a rush to go back through the thread to check who or what I was replying to!
tovlo4801 wrote:
| I think I've been on a search for a particular way of looking at the education of my children that feels instinctively right to me. I've seen it in both the way unschooling has been presented here (perhaps not "true" unschooling) and also in what I'm reading about CM. I've dismissed the structure difference as minor when, of course, it's not. It's just not the key to what's attracting me to both. I just love how both philosophies seem to indicate that kids will learn if presented with engaging material and teachers should take a step back and let that learning develop to some extent naturally. Obviously there is likely a vast difference between the degree a CM educator and an unschooler would step back, but I really like that general perspective and I think I've seen it in both places. |
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I think you are absolutely right, and I don't think there is a big difference in the way a CM educator and an unschooler would step back and observe the child. While the CM method is far more prescriptive than unschooling in terms of the teacher (or maybe facilitator would be a better word?) setting the agenda of what will be studied and how, the centrality of the child is the same in both. CM does have more of a plan, but the plan is intended to fit the child, not the other way around. Get the plan right, and living it is easy because it fits the child. Now that sounds horribly like the fool-proof recipe Leonie cautions against ... but the only way to get the plan right is to be tuned in to the child's needs. I think the CM method provides something of a shortcut because CM's genius was in her ability to observe children as persons and then generalise her observations into a truly humane method of education.
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Elizabeth
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My apologies for neglecting this thread for such a while. Could we re-gnite the conversation by looking at Suzie's definition of unschooling? So often, I think, we get hung up on definition. She defines it this way:
Unschooling is a form of education in which the child is trusted to be the primary agent in learning what he needs to know to lead him to happiness.
She is careful to clarify that the child is not the primary agent in matters of moral education but that adding the word "academic" before education in the definition seemed to narrowing.
We have jumped ahead of this definition here because there are some references to the "primary agent" in prior posts. I think it bears repeating here, however that Suzie makes this distinction: While other approaches tend to focus on the teaching done by the parent, unschooling concentrates on the learning done by the student.
To me, the value of this quote isn't in the focus on who is the primary agent, it is the distinction between teaching and learning. My early experiences with education and even with educational philosophy were very focused on institutions and degrees. I think my parents defined success in their raising of children largely upon which colleges their children were accepted into and which degrees they attained. There was tremendous focus on academic success as the cuture popularly defines it. That focus leads naturally to an emphasis on teaching and teachers. But institutions and degrees are very man-made. The intrinsic drive to understand, the desire to learn, is God's gift and desire for us. To me, when one considers the "teaching model" versus the "learning model" we can distill education to its purest form. Let's not get so caught up in teaching that we squelch genuine learning, replacing it with what is inferior--the jumping through of institutional hoops, whether at home or in school.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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ladybugs
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"To me, when one considers the "teaching model" versus the "learning model" we can distill education to its purest form. Let's not get so caught up in teaching that we squelch genuine learning, replacing it with what is inferior--the jumping through of institutional hoops, whether at home or in school."
Oh, boy....I haven't been online much in the last couple of months and I must say I have forgotten how to quote! Anyway, I love what you wrote here, Elizabeth, and I think, quite simply, it is the difference between unschooling and other approaches.
I lent my Homeschooling with Gentleness book to a friend of mine, right after I got it back from Chari (thank you!) so I still haven't been able to read past the first few pages I dug into while driving to Oregon in March....but what struck me was how much the emphasis was on reading....three of the smartest people I know, were not high school graduates...but they were readers....
As my oldest child, Isabella, approaches 3rd grade, I have been really trying to discern what is the best approach. Do we keep doing what we're doing or is it now time to implement more structure? Because my children were born very close together, I shudder at the idea of intense structure only because each of my children are at different capabilities...and to focus on one with what certain curriculums suggest, I would then be RADICALLY unschooling the others....which for us, is not the preferred method of choice...we began "formally" unschooling (what an oxymoron), when Isabella turned 5. It really was ideal as I wasn't sleeping through the night and I was tired!
However, my daughter is VERY INTENSE! So, that is why I am feeling this quandry. Structure? How much?
So, here I ramble because the point of my email has changed from when I began it to where it has ended....
God bless,
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Willa
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Elizabeth wrote:
While other approaches tend to focus on the teaching done by the parent, unschooling concentrates on the learning done by the student.
....To me, when one considers the "teaching model" versus the "learning model" we can distill education to its purest form. Let's not get so caught up in teaching that we squelch genuine learning, replacing it with what is inferior--the jumping through of institutional hoops, whether at home or in school. |
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I have been thinking hard about this "teaching" vs "learning". I've posted many times making the point that "learning" is always and everywhere the goal of education and that "learning" is ultimately up to the student. It is a product of ability plus consent of the faculties (heart, mind, will, imagination etc).
But "teaching" and the role of the teacher has had HUGE respect throughout all the ages practically up to this century. Jesus was called "Rabbi" as a title of great respect; the Roman word Magister had a similar value. We as parents are considered first and primary "teachers" of our children, the Church is called our "Teacher" and both parents and Church are given their teaching authority straight from God.
Now when we discuss "teaching" in these past couple of centuries, it seems to me that something happened, possibly during the Enlightenment, to change how we think of "teaching" -- as oppositional to learning, a sort of power struggle?
My tentative theory is that Locke and Rousseau muddied the waters a bit -- both, not believing in original sin, propounded different theories of education -- Locke postulated the "blank slate" theory that a child was born in a neutral state, which obviously meant that the teacher/instructor's role was VERY important because the teacher was the one who "wrote" on the blank slate and had the primary role in bringing the child to an educated state; while Rousseau believed that a child was educated from the inside out so to speak, so "teaching" was not helpful and could easily be very harmful as it hindered the free development of the child. Charlotte Mason was distinguishing herself from BOTH these thinkers in acknowledging the child as a complete but undeveloped person. The teacher does not MAKE the student but helps develop him.
This is over-simplified of course; but the point is that we in this century are still dealing with the muddled results of the essentially non-Christian educational theories which have been proposed in the last couple of centuries. Charlotte Mason still has something to say to us in that respect, which is I believe why so many homeschoolers are attracted to her methods, because they see the dangers of the Lockean and Roussean extremes.
In my early days of homeschooling, I was using Seton and before that my children attended a Catholic school -- I found that the workbooks and didactic methods squelched my children, especially my unconventional learner. Using multiple choice workbooks was like a funnel or filter for my kids' brains and temperaments -- no matter what they brought to the work, they had to let go of their individual perceptions and gifts and sort of force their minds into an exercise which could only produce one "right" answer. It was heart-breaking to me, and was the reason I became attracted to Charlotte Mason and to what I read about unschooling.
HOWEVER -- I feel like I threw out the baby with the bathwater and for a time didn't dare to utilize my teaching authority at ALL. I felt guilty whenever I did. Essentially, at that point, I was thinking in Roussean terms -- that anything I did was likely to be harmful, that the best I could do was to basically stay out of the way.
I guess my point is that while ineffective institutionalized teaching is not a good thing, that those adjectives aren't synonyms for "teaching" -- in other words, just because teaching can be done badly (which should humble us and make us vigilant), doesn't mean it should be given up altogether. In fact, in God's ecology, we CAN'T give it up -- we teach by not teaching, just as much as by over-teaching.
I do not know what Suzy Andres would say to that -- I think she is speaking against a "Lockean" form of teaching which gives way too much power to the teacher at the expense of the learner..... the "over-teaching" mentality. I think she is emphasizing the "un-teaching" form of teaching, where the person teaches by backing off. It is certainly one very effective form of teaching and a difficult one requiring self-mastery and virtue -- to "back off" -- CM calls it masterly inactivity.
But my point is, "un-teaching" is still Teaching, and that is how it should be, and must be. It still ought to be consciously an acknowledgement and acceptance of our roles, as Teacher -- maybe I'm making too big a point of this?
I think of Jesus -- as a Teacher, He drew out a humble, seeking attitude from His "students" or disciples -- He was a Servant, in that He geared His methods to His learners and was responsive to their questions and limitations. However, He didn't give them their heads or "follow" THEM -- He gave them a goal to aspire to -- He distinguished Wisdom from where they were at that point, and claimed to have something that they didn't have, yet.
I have found it easier to homeschool since I acknowledged that I, and the world, have something to give my kids that they do not have already -- that is what education IS. I feel it is an act of virtue for my kids to recognize that they are incomplete, still in the process of learning, just as I am, in fact. Of course, just as kings shouldn't be despots but rather servants, so teachers are servants of those who are learning. But also, teachers MUST have something that the students do not yet have or they can't be teachers.
Beyond that, there is a majesty to the term "Teacher" and something it implies about our responsibilities... BEING a teacher implies responsibility to the learners, and HAVING a teacher implies a responsibility to learn, which is the paradigm I feel is a bit in danger of being lost if "teaching" becomes too diametrically opposed to "learning". In the past, it was not so -- the "teacher" vs "learner" distinctions potentially enobled BOTH sides of the equation -- it was essentially a RELATIONSHIP.
In the home environment, the roles are even more explicitly relationship-oriented and reciprocal -- JPII said that children teach and sanctifiy their parents as well as vice versa, but still, the parents are the authorities because God gave them that duty and responsibility. I feel I am learning from my children every day -- and Scripture says that we must learn from little children, and try to become like them in their simplicity. Part of the reason homeschooling is wonderful is because it allows us to recognize that the teacher is learning always, and often learning from his children.
If unschooling is in a way a return to the older, more organic and relation-oriented and less tyrannic methods of teaching, then I'm on that page too. In some ways, I do think that was at least the original meaning of the term "unschooling" -- it just meant learning and teaching without modern, processed "schooling" methods which are proven to be destructive to the human spirit. Many of you on this board seem to use "unschooling" in this meaning of the term -- giving up that artificial, controlling, forcing your child's mind into a funnel type of teaching.
But for a while at least, I confused it with thinking that the "teacher" -- ME, and more generally our cultural heritage-- had no role at all -- and that muddied the waters considerably, for me. My middle kids, who had the most extensive experience with this form of unschooling, are opposed to unschooling now because they (especially dd) feel it let them drift at a time when they needed guidance and mentoring. They experienced it as a form of lovelessness "the father who loves his son, disciplines him".
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Leonie
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...but what struck me was how much the emphasis was on reading....three of the smartest people I know, were not high school graduates...but they were readers....
As my oldest child, Isabella, approaches 3rd grade, I have been really trying to discern what is the best approach. Do we keep doing what we're doing or is it now time to implement more structure? However, my daughter is VERY INTENSE! So, that is why I am feeling this quandry. Structure? How much?
Maria,
Good to see you here!
I took a huge chuink out of your post because I think it is full of worthwhile considerations and I thought it might be good to start a new thread, discussing your concerns. Join us in the new thread!
Leonie in Sydney
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ladybugs
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Hi Willa,
Wow! Great post!
I think you make great points in what you write and really make one think about the role of teacher and its definitons and applications.
I want to chew on this more...but I can really appreciate what you've written!
Good night and God Bless,
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Love and God Bless,
Maria P
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Willa
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Maria, thanks !!--
I felt a bit guilty after I sent it.... SO often I write so I can think, and I was obviously thinking LONG and a bit muddled -- ! I was hoping it did not sound like I was attacking unschooling, because I was not at all.
I've been discerning during the summer -- "Homeschooling with Gentleness" really spoke to me and I have been trying to ponder a "Little Way" of teaching.... less based on handing kids "teaching" materials, and more based on just finding a path to what is good for the family and the kids.
You made a great point about reading -- I have been thinking the same thing.
But I don't see how I can just ditch the idea of the "teacher" and so my ramblings were trying to find a way that "unschooling" can tie into the historical and even religious understanding of the word..
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Willa
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Elizabeth
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WJFR wrote:
But I don't see how I can just ditch the idea of the "teacher" and so my ramblings were trying to find a way that "unschooling" can tie into the historical and even religious understanding of the word..
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You are right, of course. We can't ditch the role of teacher. Sigh...I'm not finding these discussions easy ones to fit it around my other duties in a day. I didn't mean to imply we should ditch teaching. I only meant that I think great harm was done to me personally--and the way I was viewing the world, even--because undue emphasis was place upon objective standards of academic attainment: degrees, acceptance into schools or programs, curriculum vitae...all things that one can look at it and hold in her hand and say, "I learned. I am a scholar." But I don't really think that's accurate at all. A degree doesn't necessarily mean an education. But now I'm rambling and not making much sense, I'm afraid...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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ladybugs
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But I don't see how I can just ditch the idea of the "teacher" and so my ramblings were trying to find a way that "unschooling" can tie into the historical and even religious understanding of the word..
Good Morning, Willa!
I definitely believe that the idea of teacher does have a role in unschooling! I think it's more of a facilitator and one who inspires. I think of how Jesus was so gentle and loving in his teachings and how that is what I strive for - my ideal! I think we have as a culture grown distant from the idea of what a teacher should be...if we look historically, there used to be absolutes that a culture agreed on....those absolutes, morally speaking, have been replaced by peer pressure, in-crowd status and material things...and by system mandates. For crowd-control purposes, creativity has been squashed. Now that's not the fault of the teacher, today, it's the fault of the system....and I also, when I talk about the teacher, I am referring to when I get in the way of my children's learning...perhaps that is where others were coming from to???
In regards to my own situation with how we school, what I realized is how I need to talk more with my dh, Isabella, Juliana...about the goals they want to achieve and find out what they're interested in....I've been feeling alot of pressure recently because Juliana and Sophia both want to learn how to read. Well, Isabella taught herself and I read, read, read constantly to her. The younger girls and Joe Max were always included in the readings but Isabella would sit next to me and follow along. Joe Max would nap and Juliana and Sophia would listen.
Now, I have no nappers (except me, by default), and whenever we read, everyone wants to be next to me and there's only so much room on a king-sized bed....so I'm trying to strategize and figure out a new way of doing things...perhaps each night, I'll have to take each of the children alone in the other room for 30 minutes or so and make that their time....
Well, better get going...
Great to "chat" with you....I feel like a minnow swimming with the big fish though, because even though we're going on our technical 4th year of homeschooling, I still feel a novice....
Love and God Bless,
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Love and God Bless,
Maria P
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Willa
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Elizabeth, I understood what you were saying, I think  -- I was so glad to see you pick up the discussion again. I did not think you were trying to ditch the "teaching" role altogether, but to dismiss the artificial trappings of teaching. Please don't let me discourage you from continuing to guide the discussion --!
Perhaps you and some others I know are "natural" teachers so ditching the external, artificial stuff frees you up to use your personal teaching gifts better -- but at one point in my life, I personally ditched TOO much and became paralyzed and ineffective.
I don't want that to happen again, so I am trying to make a paradigm of "gentle homeschooling" that includes MY role as mentor, guide, fellow explorer and this is surprisingly hard for me to do. So I'm rambling and inflicting it all on you
I'd love to hear thoughts on what you all see as YOUR role in this form of unschooling. For instance, this is just one example, how do you prepare for a year of unschooling? Last year I planned out lessons and books, this year I'm wondering what I should do instead, if indeed it SHOULD be different?
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Willa
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Willa
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Maria, we must have posted at exactly the same time  -- thanks, I am going to read your post now and then I need to get off the computer! I am on my 12th year homeschooling but really, feel a bit like a novice still since every year and every combination of kids and ages is always so different! It's so weird not planning anything for Liam this year except stuff to bring to college and how we are going to get to see him during the year!
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Meredith
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ladybugs wrote:
I definitely believe that the idea of teacher does have a role in unschooling! I think it's more of a facilitator and one who inspires. I think of how Jesus was so gentle and loving in his teachings and how that is what I strive for - my ideal! I think we have as a culture grown distant from the idea of what a teacher should be...if we look historically, there used to be absolutes that a culture agreed on....those absolutes, morally speaking, have been replaced by peer pressure, in-crowd status and material things...and by system mandates. For crowd-control purposes, creativity has been squashed. Now that's not the fault of the teacher, today, it's the fault of the system....and I also, when I talk about the teacher, I am referring to when I get in the way of my children's learning...perhaps that is where others were coming from to???
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Hi Maria! That was so well said!
I am really enjoying this discussion and I do not even remotely consider myself an *unschooler*, but that's because what *I* thought the definition of unschooling is vastly different than what this current coversation is leading towards, so maybe I am just a teeny bit of an unschooler. At any rate, great discussion and looking forward to hearing more. Perhaps I need to read the Homeschooling with Gentleness book 
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Leonie
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Meredith,
It is a good book and well worth a read.
I also like Christian Unschooling; Homeschooling Our Children Unschooling Ourselves by Alison McKee and The Unschooling Handbook by Mary Griffith.
Leonie in Sydney
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Meredith
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Great Leonie, thanks so much for the recommendations. I tend to be a little more CM pure but like to think of her "masterly inactivity" concept as a bit like an unschooling idea, just a shot in the dark here  I'll check out some of these titles at my libray and will keep lurking
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Mary G
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I'm going to chime in again, now that it sounds like everyone has pretty much read the book.
I just think this book would have been better as a chapter in a book highlighting Catholic Unschoolers. To me, Suzie Andres seemed to be validating what she sort of does -- it was repetitive, and (especially for a TAC grad), lacking in a logical, well-thougth out argument for unschooling.
It lamost seems as if her dh wants her to unschool and she is trying to convince herself.
I also have a problem with her using she and her son as an example, when it doesn't sound like she's been unschooling very long and only with one child.
Further, it seems that more than unschooling, she is actually doing maybe a bit of Montessori, a bit of Charlotte Mason and a bit of classical -- actually very much like me with my younger kids.
BTW, I just re-read Elizabeth's book (for the 3rd or 4th time) and each time I come away with more and more information! The CM books and a few others (i.e., Susan Macaulay's book) are also like Elizabeth's. I wouldn't rank "Homeschooling with Gentleness" in this category at all.
If anyone wants to buy my copy -- let me know! 
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Genevieve
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Willa,
I love your post, especially how you brought it back to Jesus Christ and how he taught. God gave us free will and He also gave us this desire to fulfil our vocation and to strive for this ideal with great humility. I think this does relate back to our role as mothers and teachers. I do know more than my son in some areas. However, it is a mistake to think that just because I put forth an idea/lesson, the child would retain it. That is up to the child. This is especially hard when I think I know better about what is important at that particular moment of time when the child's deepest desire is to master something else. If anything now, I am a teacher when my child wants me to be a teacher. I am a facilator of information when he so chooses. And in so-called "down" periods, I am an observer and a gentle strewer. In this last part, I'm finding that there is a fine line between his interests and what I consider to be a wide range of ideas. Some might even considered it, dare I say, a curriculum?
Just thinking out loud.
__________________
Genevieve
The Good Within
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Leonie
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| Posted: Aug 03 2005 at 6:03pm | IP Logged
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Thaks for your viewpoint, Mary.
Its interesting because I found HWG to be "just rught" . A little book aimed at telling one family's tale of a little way of education. I didn't take it to be a guidebook and I don't think Suzie meant it as a "how to" book, either.
Instead, I read it as one family's story, told in order to share one viewpoint of homeschooling and to encourage others to ponder their own journey.
The "littleness" of the book is what appealed to me - it is not a volume of ideas but a personal, philosophical discussion. As such, it sits with For the Children's Sake, for me. Or with other personal acoounts of hoemschooling - Nancy Wallace's Better Than School is another that springs to mind.
It *is fascinating to see another viewpoint, Mary, and I can appreciate that you feel the book is not for you.
Leonie in Sydney
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Willa
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ladybugs wrote:
| Now, I have no nappers (except me, by default), and whenever we read, everyone wants to be next to me and there's only so much room on a king-sized bed....so I'm trying to strategize and figure out a new way of doing things... |
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LOL, that sounds SO familiar Maria and makes me miss my early days of homeschooling when I had four kids 9 and under. Where to put them all? One on each side, one nursing.... sometimes one lay on the back of the sofa and looked over my shoulder so he too could see the pictures and connect physically with the reading/cuddling situation! They used to squabble about where to sit... that just doesn't happen anymore these days!
I thought your points about our culture were really good -- I am reading a book about the after-effects of Vatican II and how some of the American clerical system seemed to "use" VII as a pretext for modernist ideas and goals.... and for some reason, it "connected" to me with this discussion.
JPII called our culture "consumeristic" and in many ways, homeschooling pulls us back towards a poorer, littler, simpler way of relating to our kids than is common nowadays in our country...it fosters attention to the individual personhood of the child. For me, Homeschooling with Gentleness reminded me of that. Whether homeschoolers are school-at-home, unschooling or somewhere in between, I don't think that "style" or what we DO is the essence, the heart, of homeschooling. At least, when I personally focus too much on the extraneous stuff, I start worrying and second-guessing and feeling like I'm getting behind in a race.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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4Real Forums : Book Club
Topic: Homeschooling with Gentleness
