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tovlo4801
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WJFR wrote:
Natalia wrote:
I feel that the line between being a primary agent and a secondary agent is a fine one don't you think?
I guess that it is as SA says that the emphasis on the learning done by the student is not unique to unschooling but that unschooling takes this principle farther.
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So they would try one thing, watch the kids, try something else, and sometimes they did use "schoolish" methods and resources but then backed up when they saw that resistance or unreadiness or boredom in their kids. It was sort of a balancing act between their desire to impart to their children what THEY the parents thought to be essential for their happiness, and their desire to elicit consent and enthuasiasm and natural learning energies in their kids. |
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I gave away my copy of the book,  so forgive me, I'm commenting a little bit blind here. I think Natalia's raised a really good point. I agree that the line is very fine. Willa has kind of hit the distinction for me in her response. From what I've put together, the difference is in the willingness of the parents to be patient and low-pressure. This is so much NOT a natural trait for me. I remember when my oldest was a toddler and just learning to eat. I tried to explain to him silverware and how to use it. It just went right over his head and made absolutely no impression. My husband sat right next to my son and made a very visual show of drinking from his cup and using his silverware while talking with my son about other subjects. He never mentioned the silverware at all. By the end of the meal my son was trying to use his silverware. My husband has a gift for this that I have observed him being exceedingly successful with over the years. It requires patience. My son might not have picked up using silverware in that meal. My husband wouldn't have been fazed by that. He would have just done the whole thing another night, until it did catch on. He might have switched gears and tried a different approach if necessary. But he NEVER would have outright said to my son that he wanted him to use silverware now. I am very task oriented and frankly not very patient. I have been a successful disicplinarian, but not a terribly successful motivator in our parenting. Unschooling as described on this forum, just seems to put a name on what my husband has demonstrated so successfully to me in parenting over the years. It always seemed a little bit manipulative  to me, but it usually worked too!
It seems like the key to being a secondary agent is having a general goal and then quietly demonstrating and participating with your child. It also seems to demand patience and a willingness to reach the goal in a variety of ways. Leading by example, leaving it up to the child to pick up on the cues given him, and being willing to take a different road than you might have had in mind. That's my take on it anyway.
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Cheryl
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| From what I've put together, the difference is in the willingness of the parents to be patient and low-pressure. This is so much NOT a natural trait for me. I remember when my oldest was a toddler and just learning to eat. I tried to explain to him silverware and how to use it. |
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I think I'm very low pressure. I wonder if it could be considered taking the easier softer way. I think my oldest went from breast milk to macaroni & cheese at 10 months. Then he potty trained on his own 2 weeks after his 4th birthday. This year (when he was 5.5) he kept asking us to take the training wheels off of his bike. I'd say, "Maybe next weekend when Daddy can help you." Then when we took them off, he rode the first time on his own, just as the author described.
Even though I try not to push my kids, I spend a lot of time planning what subjects we'll study and what books we'll read. I do googles, I read booklists, I check what the library has, then I do price comparisons online... Reading this book I started thinking that maybe I should relax a bit. For example, maybe I won't know what we'll study next after we finish a certain topic. Maybe I should wait to see if the children are interested in anything in particular. The same day I was thinking these thoughts, my ds 6.5 told me he wants to go to public school next year.
I asked him why and I think his main reason was that he didn't want to wait for our neighbor to get out of school to play with him. He also said that he wanted homework and he wanted to be taught all day. I'm assuming that he is curious about school and that he feels different than the people he knows that go to school, but it made me question "am I doing the right thing?"
This was a few days ago. My husband and I both agree that homeschooling is best. My son is too young to make this decision for himself. I am uncertain as to what next year will look like. I suppose we all are. I was making lots of plans, but now I feel I should take a break from planning and just enjoy the day we are in. It's hard for me though, because I think when I feel fearful, planning makes me feel safe. I really should be turning to the only One who takes away my insecurity.
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Leonie
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I am not natural at unschooling. But learning to dance with my sons, so to speak, in an educational environment has meant that a lot of what we do looks unschooly.
Now, I am the one that as a youg mum, enrolled my first son at the library at six weeks of age! I read my six week old baby picture books and worked to teach him colours and the time and....
Breastfeeding taught me to wait for the child's response and to blend the baby's needs with my needs and the needs of the family.
Unschooling, in a Catholic CM sense :-), has been a bit like that for me.
Leonie in Sydney
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Willa
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Suzy Andres points out that "unschooling" is in a sense a negative term. It focuses on what we DON'T do and so it leaves in shadow what unschoolers DO. She mentions that perhaps this is inevitable in a general description of unschooling because something that one mom does naturally might be "schooly" and forced to another mom.
I think I can get a bit more comfortable with the vagueness of the "unschooling" term if I think of it in that way.
I've been thinking a bit more about this primary and secondary agency stuff. Upon thought, I realize that I happen to believe that a kid HAS to be the primary agent in his own learning. It's just a fact... so any system that conceives of the child as secondary agent is simply doomed to fail, because it isn't based on reality. In that way, my Ignatian manual goes even further than Suzy Andres herself does, because it says the child, his will and intellect, is THE active agent.
The reason we can sometimes get away with thinking of the child as secondary agent, even though it's not true, is because we just focus on our efforts and activities as teacher, we see the kid learning, and we think it's a corroboration of our theory. This is I think what John Holt is talking about when he says that when he planned and taught and executed, he thought HE was the one causing the children to learn. He came to see that the children were learning, yes, but his efforts were sometimes actually hindering the process and at best, were only fostering the child's primary agency in his learning.
Now where I think that unschooling differs from other systems that acknowledge the child as primary agent in learning -- I'd include CM and classical Ignatian education in these systems -- is that unschooling de-emphasizes a bit ANY role of the teacher. It is more conscious of the harm done by over-teaching. But within the unschooling philosophy, there is a spectrum, it seems. Suzy Andres appears to rely on "habits, environment, and living ideas" just as CM would say, but obviously her day to day home education is much less formal than "pure" CM.
Ignatian classical education, in my understanding, emphasizes the role of the teacher EVEN while acknowledging that it IS the secondary role, because the pedagogical suggestions are written to the teacher and in fact, we can only change ourselves, we can't actually compel anyone, not even our children, to change themselves -- we can exhort, encourage, suffer for them, pray for them, and train their bodies to go trhough the motions (which sometimes has an effect on their spirits)-- but only they themselves with God can consent with their own wills and hearts and minds.
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Willa
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Oh, and I was going to say also that in unschooling, de-emphasizing the role of the teacher allows the teacher to observe and respect the child's active agency. It often happens that when we are doing, doing we forget to observe and contemplate. That's the lesson of Martha and Mary and it does apply somewhat to education, I believe.
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Genevieve
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WJFR wrote:
Suzy Andres appears to rely on "habits, environment, and living ideas" just as CM would say, but obviously her day to day home education is much less formal than "pure" CM.
Oh, and I was going to say also that in unschooling, de-emphasizing the role of the teacher allows the teacher to observe and respect the child's active agency.
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I haven't read the book but have read a few of Holt's books. I did want to comment how interesting it how different philosophies have overlapped to different degrees. The second quote of Willa reminded me much of the Montessori's idea of a prepared teacher.
Strewing is something unschoolers actively do, and yet I can't help but think other educational philosophers have persued this technique. CM talks about forming mastering inactivity while the child form relations with his books. Montessori has her Great Lessons, stories and questions which are meant to awaken the wonder within the child. Sparks of inspiration and then a stepping back by the "teacher".
It is curious to me that despite this common thread, the application of the philosophy takens on different forms. Would these same philosophers come up with the same method or even materials if they worked with my children? Perhaps the balance between structure, routine and freedom has much to do with the personality and comfort level of CM, Montessori and Holt.
Am I off in thought and in topic?
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tovlo4801
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Genevieve,
I don't know if you're off topic, but I love the thought! It seems right on to me. I have not read Holt or Montessori, but I'm just loving what I'm reading in CM and thinking that so much of it is what I saw and liked in unschooling. I'm probably naturally focusing on what I need for my family in both philosophies so that is where much of the overlap is, I suppose. But it is interesting how much these different philosophies do seem to overlap. The differences probably have a lot to do with the specific influences that each of them was dealing with in their time. I'm struck as I read CM how frequently she recalls the effects of the Great War. This obviously affected the way she viewed effective education. As I understand it, Holt was struggling against a different sort of educational system and that also had to affect how he saw effective education. Each of their unique circumstances (and as you said, personalities) probably caused slightly different shifts on a similar theme.
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tovlo4801
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I have a question. I'm just beginning to read CM, and it's been a while since I read HWG, but I'm wondering what the differences between the way Suzie (sp) describes her unschooling homeschool looking and the way a typical CM homeschool would look are? I have really only hit the philosophy of CM and haven't got into many specifics in implementation yet, but the first obvious difference I see is the lack of specific structure of subjects. Beyond that, I'm not sure where the differences are. She seems to rely on good books to provide the food for the mind and then step back out the way as the teacher. This seems to be what CM suggests (at least as far as I've gotten in her writing). What are the other differences? Or are there any?
I guess I'm just wondering if a relaxed CM style makes sense as a good compromise for someone who is very attracted to certain aspects of unschooling, but can't let go of some sort of structure.
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Natalia
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| , but I'm wondering what the differences between the way Suzie (sp) describes her unschooling homeschool looking and the way a typical CM homeschool would look are? . |
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I am not an expert on CM but it seems to me a CM homeschool would include all the subjects with short lessons. CM seems to propose lessons in the morning and nature and play in the afternoon. In Suzie's approach she doesn't seem to have lessons at all unless requested by the child (except for math). She doesn't seem to require anything of the child regarding his reading; CM would require narration, either oral or written. Even though I bet that a lot of spontaneous narration takes place in an unschooling home. Also, CM talks about a broad curriculum so I don't think she will wait for the child to show interest before introducing a subject.
Got to go now,
Natalia
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Mary G
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OK, maybe I'm in the minority here, but I just don't think Suzie Andres makes a very good argument for unschooling -- she seems to dance around the issue, with lots of self-deprecation, and says this is what worked for her one son.
OK, I have hs'd my 2 little ones for about 2 years, and have always clung to the fact that hs'ing is doing what fits for your family. We have done a combo of CM (primarily), unit studies, and maybe some unschooling.
I don't see where unschooling is any better than flexible CM -- I think you need some structure, especially if you have more than one to hs, and some direction from the parents. This is NOT unschooling as defined by most folks.
I think Suzie's book could have been edited down to a CHAPTER in a book of Catholic hs'ers who unschool. Had her example been added to others -- those with multiple kids, and those who successfully got their kids into life (rather than just past 7th grade) -- I think this would have leant much more credence to the argument for Catholic unschooling.
I don't think she has enough "meat" in what she says to warrant an entire book, and she certainly DOESN'T make the argument that Catholics can unschool. Her arguments in the chapter where she discusses whether Catholics can unschool or not based on Church teachings is based on her definition of unschooling and it just "happens" to fit.
I have to say that -- regardless of what a great person Suzie and her husband are -- her book left me disappointed and a bit chagrined that I had bought it, sight unseen. It just seemed that she was trying to validate what she has done with her son by writing this book.
Is there anyone else that feels this way?
I am constantly going back and forth with the best way to teach my children. The funny thing is that I KEEP coming back to what CM taught, but with a Catholic slant. Maybe this is my "comfort zone" -- I know I haven't been able to talk other Catholic HS'ers into doing CM because it's so "hard" -- but I firmly believe that putting the child first, in a structured BUT very child-centered environment, is what we should be doing. It's what's worked for a couple of years for my kids, and I think will continue to work.
Blessings to all (and NO OFFENSE MEANT)
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Elizabeth
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I was so spiritually renewed by the contents of this book that I have bought several more to loan. It ranks up there with my top three. And right now, I can't really think of what the other two are .
And I wrote a book of my own  .
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JSchaaf
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I'm with you, Mary G. I bought it, read it, put it away for a few months, read it again and sold it. Can't specifically say (since I don't have the book anymore) what I didn't like, it just didn't speak to me.
Now, on the other hand, I purchased this book by some woman named Elizabeth Foss... I think it's called Real Learning or something like that-that one's a keeper! It's a book that has a permanent spot at my bedside. I wonder if any one else has heard of it? 
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tovlo4801
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Mary G. wrote:
| OK, maybe I'm in the minority here, but I just don't think Suzie Andres makes a very good argument for unschooling -- she seems to dance around the issue, |
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Mary G. wrote:
| and she certainly DOESN'T make the argument that Catholics can unschool. |
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Mary,
You are not completely alone, though I don't feel quite so strongly as you express . I also really didn't feel that she made her case. I actually came away from reading the book with some serious concerns about unschooling that I did not have when I went into the book. She laid out the arguments against Catholics unschooling and I never felt that she gave a convincing defense to contradict those arguments against unschooling. As attracted as I am to certain aspects of unschooling, I was left contemplating whether unschooling was truly a viable option for a Catholic. My hope from this discussion was that someone would be able to help me work through those concerns. I was patiently waiting for the conversation to get there. Thanks for jumping right to it!
The arguments regarding whether a Catholic could unschool is where most of my concern was, but I agree that the picture she painted of what unschooling looked like for her was very slim. She spent some time explaining what it DIDN'T look like, but then didn't explain clearly enough for me why the examples she gave were not really unschooling.
Overall, I still really liked the book. It reinforced many things that I'd been leaning towards in homeschooling. I really believe a more relaxed perspective is healthy. I also really believe that unschooling can be the right path for some children and families. It keeps being asked whether it can work for everyone (different family sizes and temperments) and I'm beginning to come to conclusion that it might not be for everyone. Some parents just don't feel comfortable without some structure (me...) and some kids really wouldn't thrive without sequential presentation of material (my youngest...), but for the parents and children that are well suited to it, I still think it has the potential to be an excellent way to approach education. I think that if I had a different temperment and my oldest was my only child, it might be the best approach possible for this son. This is not my situation, so I need to look for the wisdom that can be found in the unschooling philosophy and then look to other systems that can provide the structure that I need and the sequential presentation of material that my youngest needs. (Right now that looks like it might be some sort of CM, but we'll see.)
I also really liked the spirituality of the book. The perspective it gave me was so needed!
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Cheryl
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I fell asleep today in the beginning of chapter 5. So far I'm a little disappointed in the book, but I'm only halfway through it. I guess I expected to get a visual of what unschooling looks like in the home, but it been more like a research paper. I do like how logical the author is.
I just had to add that I agree with this comment:
JSchaaf wrote:
I purchased this book by some woman named Elizabeth Foss... I think it's called Real Learning or something like that-that one's a keeper! |
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I pick up that book regularly. I don't think I've ever been really burnt out, but I especially LOVE reading that chapter hoping to prevent it.
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Leonie
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I'm with Elizabeth on this one - maybe we are secret sisters. 
I found the spirituality in the book to be appealing. The meditation and reflection.
Its alomst "the little way of education". Given Suzie's devotion to St Therese, I'd almost say that the book is not meant to be a complete guide but a "little book" on the "little way" of education.
Leonie in Sydney
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Elizabeth
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 That's it precisely, Leonie! The book is on the The Little Way" on education. And it drew me very compellingly towards the Little Way.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Kathryn UK
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I keep wanting to contribute to this conversation but read and then don't have time to reply. Now I have two minutes 
A Charlotte Mason education, as defined by CM herself, is nothing like unschooling (by any definition I can think of). Elements of a CM education can be taken and used very successfully as part of any type of homeschooling - ranging from highly structured classical education to highly flexible unschooling - but a structured CM education just isn't, and IMO can't be, unschooling.
I enjoyed Homeschooling With Gentleness, from my perspective as a dyed-in-the-wool non-unschooler. It gave me food for thought and helped me to be gentler in the way we homeschool, though it didn't convince me of the case for unschooling.
Hope to say more later!
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Willa
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I really liked the tone of the book. It was "dialectic" and thoughtful -- it didn't try to persuade so much as examine and work through unschooling in the light of our Catholic faith. I believe the Church needs diversity -- not speaking politically correctly, just talking about St Paul and one person being an "eye" one a "foot" and so on in the communion of saints -- and that includes diversity in education. So I think her attempt was to baptize some form of unschooling and disassociate it from its secularistic manifestations, so that Catholics could at least consider it as a viable alternative.
I also thought that she purposely avoided multiplying words, ideas, concepts because the underlying theme of the book was the "littleness" of her task as Catholic mom. "Little" in the sense of St Therese -- faithfulness and humility and diligence in the little things, but always seeking to bring those things in accord with God's Will. This is far from easy but it is simple, and so I think she avoids being complex and complicated because she wants to rest in that "heart" of what our task is as educators. The key to her intentions, I think, is in the quote from St Therese -- that oh, Therese is glad she hasn't read all those books! because Therese feels all that wisdom, good as it is, might distract her from what is really very simple. To the children and the childlike is given the key to the kingdom of heaven. Similarly, I think Suzy is saying that too much intellectualism, wheel-spinning, agonizing over "systems" and "methods" might detract from our actual task with our children. I certainly can use that message and am pondering it this summer.
I certainly didn't have all my questions about unschooling answered, or objections stilled, by reading the book. One objection which has been with me for a long time, which wasn't mentioned in the book, is that I WANT my children to do academic work out of duty. I want them to subordinate their intellect and heart to their will. To me that means sometimes studying something that the parents think is best for them to study, even if they don't like it, even when they don't see the point. That's trust and humility and I think it should be fostered in every sphere of life.
I'm sure Suzy would have a response for this and I'm sure she has considered it, but it doesn't show up in her book and I never see it anywhere in unschooling. The answer I hear in unschooling circles is "children learn better when doing things because THEY want to" and whether or not that's true (I would argue that it IS true), I don't think "want to" is a good criterion.
Perhaps Suzy DOES elicit the "I will" response and uses unschooling -- attention to the child, working with his individual gifts -- as a way to foster that discipline "gently". There is absolutely nothing that says that one can't be almost scandalously gentle in forming a child. God goes WAY beyond the extra mile in bringing us to Him -- may He be praised, because otherwise, we would all be lost souls! The Eucharistic presence is sheerly a humble, quiet invitation and perhaps that is what Suzy calls unschooling!
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Willa
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Willa
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One other thing -- I think this Catholic form of "unschooling" might foster a kind of humility. I am conscious of being "product-oriented" and prefering to do "big" things over small ones. For example, I would rather research or lesson plan than actually teach my kids. Why? Because with researching I can work on something that is interesting, gives me a large view, and is dependent upon ME for completion. Whereas with teaching, my lesson plans are suddenly contingent upon another person, my child, and how he learns as a result of what I prepared.
Another example: I'd prefer to research than teach, but I prefer to "teach" rather than just hang out with my kids or form their characters by natural participation in day to day life. Why is that? because "teaching" has a product -- a certain result expected in the student and to some extent I can force him to produce a math sheet or a paper. While forming my child in character or building my relationship with him is open-ended, and often results in nothing immediately visible, and "humbles" me because our relationship is person to person, not the thinner and more structured "teacher to student."
For the same reason, though I far prefer reading to doing the housework, sometimes I will "escape" from my kids into housework because it is concrete, and has an immediate though not long-lasting resulting, and there is always something to "do" that can give me some kind of validation.
I think I sometimes see intense frustration on the part of well meaning homeschool moms, including myself, because they think "doing X plus Y plus Z" will add up to an obedient, capable, achieving child. But that doesn't take into account that what's REALLY important in the economy of salvation is not so easily measurable. The key is Love and that's unachievable without grace, and some techniques can help but don't add up to the whole picture.
Anyway, I'm talking mostly to myself here....
hope it doesn't sound like preaching.
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Willa
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jdostalik
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WJFR wrote:
| One other thing -- I think this Catholic form of "unschooling" might foster a kind of humility. |
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I'll go one step further and say that homeschooling, itself, fosters humility...Argh...that sin of PRIDE!!!!!
I just ordered a copy of this book for me and a dear friend to read together... and am awaiting its arrival...Enjoying this conversation immensely...
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4Real Forums : Book Club
Topic: Homeschooling with Gentleness
