| Author | |
Natalia
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Louisiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1343
|
| Posted: June 07 2005 at 5:28pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
finished it. 
Natalia
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Marybeth
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 02 2005
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1277
|
| Posted: June 07 2005 at 6:08pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oh, I can't wait to hear what people have to say!!
I'm anxious to get my book. Amazon fell through (I always have trouble with them!  ) So, I bought a copy off Cathswap yesterday.
Marybeth
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Cheryl
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 20 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 978
|
| Posted: June 07 2005 at 8:20pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I received my book tonight, but I won't start reading it until tomorrow. Today's my 8th anniversary. I'm going to hang out with my husband now.
__________________
Cheryl
Wife to Bob ('97)
Mom to Matthew 13, Joseph 11, Sarah 10, Rachel 6, Hannah almost 4 and Mary 1
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: June 07 2005 at 8:26pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
My ordered copy finally was sent off Monday, so chances are it will be here tomorrow. Looking forward to it
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Courtney
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 796
|
| Posted: June 07 2005 at 9:21pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm starting mine tonight.
__________________
Courtney in Texas
Wife to Mike since 3/94 
Mom to Candace 10/97,Christopher 4/00 and Connor 11/11
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: June 09 2005 at 4:29am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Let's begin with the first chapter then...
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Cheryl
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 20 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 978
|
| Posted: June 09 2005 at 8:26am | IP Logged
|
|
|
OK. I read the first chapter last night and I want to write my thoughts before I move on to chapter 2. I just finished my first year of homeschooling and most of the year was like the author's experience with her son. We did a little bit of seat-work and lots of reading aloud. Then they played. Sometimes we did art and crafts and we did 1 3/4 lapbooks. I chose the topics we studied and the books we read. The author didn't get into details about that. It worked for kindergarten, and I could see it working for my ds 6 as he gets older, but I'm not sure if so little structure will work for all my children. Do you think unschooling is good for all children or just certain types of personalities? My ds 6 seems to wake up with an agenda. He stays busy most of the day working on projects he thinks of, etc.. Sometimes my ds 4 seems to need more attention. If he doesn't get it, he usually teases. When there's a conflict with kids playing, he's usually involved in it. Maybe it's because he's 4...we'll see. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
__________________
Cheryl
Wife to Bob ('97)
Mom to Matthew 13, Joseph 11, Sarah 10, Rachel 6, Hannah almost 4 and Mary 1
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: June 10 2005 at 8:10pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I finally got the book today and umm, I read the whole thing while exercising and watching the little ones play at the park  Now I'm going to start over and go more slowly and take notes.
One of my first thoughts was that I am more of an unschooler than I thought. She describes doing a minimum of math, teaching reading skills, and reading and playing lots, plus formation in the Catholic faith. Somehow that's our basic pattern too -- sometimes I step it up and sometimes we drop back even from that.
I guess I may be a closet unschooler.... I do make plans and try lots of different teaching materials, but the ones that don't work, I drop -- I was afraid that was a major sign of inconstancy in me, so I am really pondering her "message" and wondering if this "flexibility" of mine could actually in some ways be a positive thing.
I also was wondering if the picture changes a bit with several kids in the mix instead of just one. It's harder to maintain that kind of sensitivity to the child's readiness, etc, when you have a handful -- at least, is it harder? perhaps not, but it seems that way to me. I know I've said that before....
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: June 12 2005 at 8:46am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I agree with Willa. I am an unschooler according to Andres' definition. As a matter of fact, I had the pleasure of meeting Suzie Andres and after we had a long talk, she sent me an official card in the mail certifying my status as an unschooler  . I will tell you this, one of her graces is a wonderful sense of humor and I don't think that's an insignificant detail.It makes this lifestyle much more pleasant.
The resounding question appears to be whether this philosophy can be applied to large families. Since Willa has said she is an unschooler and I have said the same and we have 14 children altogether, I think it can  .
Is it more difficult? Well yes, I'm sure it is. And I think Suzie would concur. But, so would be instituting any philosophy of home education. I have friends who assure me that senidng my children to school would be more difficult as well--they'd be in four different schools, with countless teachers to consult and countless deadlines to meet. The mom with only two children (Suzie Andres has a toddler, too) will certainly not have the logistics that we do. But isn't that the case with everything? My laundry is more time consuming and logistically complicated than that of someone with two children. Everything takes more effort. I wouldn't trade it for anything though. Even the laundry (did I mention that my washer was broken this week and I lugged my laundry all over town for days? Made a big impression on me, apparently. Everything I write has a laundry ribbon running through it )
Perhaps a better question would be, is this a good method (or non-method) of education for a large family? I think it is. I think that there is inherent flexibility which allows the mother to tailor the education to the child, rather than using a cookie-cutter plan for expedience's sake.
It does require careful time and attention and it brings to mind Bridget's recent post about needing to slow down.I think someone has already pointed out in that thread that this book is a good remedy or at least a good reminder that slowing down is necessary. It has become so, so clear to me lately that, particularly for mothers of large families, our marriages, children, and homes are *all* we can do. That's it.
I will tell you that the blessing of real conversations with Suzie have most impressed this upon me. A couple of months ago, God in His goodness recognized that I was a dire case and the book alone would not suffice. So he arranged to have Suzie call me out of the blue. When I got the message, I thought for sure it was the "unschooling police" out to get me! Turned out it was the first of several life-altering conversations.
I wanted you all to have the benefit of some of that ongoing wisdom and I invited Suzie to visit here, but Suzie lives this philosophy so completely that she doesn't have internet access at home  . There is some peace to be had in that decision too...but I'm not going there .
Enough rambling. Yes, it will take more effort to be tuned into our children so to educate them well, according to the principles in HOmeschooling with Gentleness and it will take even more effort if we have many children. But my strong sense is that is exactly what we're called to do.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: June 12 2005 at 10:28am | IP Logged
|
|
|
THis is from chapter 2, but this section really jumped out and hit me on my second read-through:
"Finally, let us consider that the end of unschooling is the end of all education: that is, the acquisition of knowledge and skills. Because unschooling, like all homeschooling, is for the child's sake, the knowledge and skills proposed are not accidental; they are those which the child needs to become truly happy.
"This, then, is what we mean by unschooling. What differentiates it from schooling is that in unschooling the knowledge and skills which make up the education are for the child's sake, and are learned for the sake of his happiness. Schools could also have this end, but too often they don't. The further distinction which separates unschooling from other methods of homeschooling is the emphasis on trusting the child to be the primary agent of his education. While other approaches tend to focus on the teaching done by the parent, unschooling concentrates on the learning done by the student. Again, this emphasis is not wholly unique to unschooling..... I think, however, that unschooling takes this principles farther than the other methods do."
Well, to unpack that, for me, might take pages. First of all:
Unschooling is about acquiring knowledge and skills -- like all forms of education, whether building "schooling" or homeschool.
The knowledge and the skills to be acquired are not accidental, but those essential to make the child become truly happy -- this largely distinguishes homeschooling from other kinds of schooling, because usually the building schools have other motives than just leading to the child's happiness.
Unschooling differs from other forms of education in that it trusts the child to be the primary agent in his own education THis is the unique part which marks unschooling off from other forms of homeschooling, though she says that other kinds of homeschooling may include this as an element, just not to the degree that unschooling does.
Cheryl asked whether some children were more suited to unschooling than others. It does seem that some children are more natural learners than others. But if a spirit of inquiry and studiousness are virtuous things (and the ancients and the Church have generally agreed that they are) then just as we work on a not-naturally-patient child to train him in patience, so we MIGHT equally work to develop a child in his ability to learn by himself. I'm not saying this is what Suzy would say, but what I think COULD be an answer. She says that the child is not expected to form himself in the Catholic faith or in character.... that part needs some guidance. And she also says that unschooling doesn't mean the parents don't have a role, but that their role is secondary. I'd like to know more about how that works out in day to day life.
I don't know exactly what one might do, but in the case of the 4yo who gets at loose ends and teases, you might plan to do projects with the child so he could have together-time, and/or make a list or shelf of activities which the child could choose from when he was at loose ends. I have a son like that, who is 12 now. He causes lots of trouble when he is bored.... he likes to be doing and going.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: June 12 2005 at 10:33am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth, I liked the laundry analogy. Now laundry for a big family, as cooking and scheduling, take a lot of logistics and tricks of the trade (well, not a lot but some things that seem a bit "artificial" and WOULD be if you were just doing laundry for man and wife).
Supposing that we are unschooling our crew, what kind of logistics can we use to ensure that no kid falls through and doesn't acquire that knowledge and skills needed to make him truly happy? (to use the book's words?)
Would those logistics sometimes LOOK a bit like more formal homeschooling, even if the heart was different? Sort of like my laundry system might LOOK a bit like a hospital's laundry system, even if it was organically based and not instititional? (though that's not a completely valid analogy, since a hospital's laundry is for the health and cleanliness of the environment just like mine is).
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kathryn UK
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 27 2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 924
|
| Posted: June 12 2005 at 3:16pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
WJFR wrote:
| "This, then, is what we mean by unschooling. What differentiates it from schooling is that in unschooling the knowledge and skills which make up the education are for the child's sake, and are learned for the sake of his happiness. Schools could also have this end, but too often they don't. |
|
|
Charlotte Mason's schools did . That phrase "for the children's sake" popping up again!
WJFR wrote:
| Cheryl asked whether some children were more suited to unschooling than others. It does seem that some children are more natural learners than others. |
|
|
I'm convinced some children are not suited to unschooling. I have one of them  . Some children have a real need for structure and external input that I think goes beyond anything that can reasonably described as unschooling. My dd considers more than twenty minutes reading in a day unreasonable, and often wouldn't do that if I didn't insist on it. She has no innate curiosity about anything that isn't practical, and rabbit trails are a non-starter. With structure she learns and progresses; without it she drifts. That isn't to say that structure and unschooling are mutually exclusive. A good friend of mine is died-in-the-wool unschooler who has a highly structured child who wants to "do school". Watching her "unschool school" is an education in itself  . However, while her dd and mine have a lot in common in terms of personality - and even share a birthday! - her dd is far more interested in learning than mine, and is an enthusiastic reader. While my friend can add "school" into unschooling to satisfy her dd's need for structure, we have to work the other way, adding some unschooling flexibility into a more school-type structure.
I do find definitions difficult here. Structure and unschooling is a continuum, and while I would say we definitely don't unschool, what we do certainly doesn't resemble the style of education you find in a school building. Also, the Suzie Andres version of "unschooling" would be considered positively coercive by many home educators here in the UK, where unschooling often means something rather more like unparenting.
__________________
Kathryn
Dh Michael, Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06)  (11/07)
The Bookworm
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Leonie
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2831
|
| Posted: June 12 2005 at 7:23pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
What I gained from Suzie's book was the importance of the spiritual side of homeschooling.
Focusing on a child's needs through prayer. Living a life with time for prayer. These things encourage reflection and this reflection helps with our children's education.
I remember re-reading Nancy Wallace's Better Than School ( another unschooling book) when I had four dc and was expecting my fifth. I wondered how to provide for such a rich education with more children than Nancy Wallace's two. I decided that I needed time each day when my dc would know that I was available to be with them, not distracted by the phone or housework. For me, at that time and for several years, that time was morning, after breakfast and chores and laundry.
So, I wonder if it matters less how large our families are, or how structured we may or may not look, if these matter less than the fact of taking time for pray and to be with our dc.
The routine and slowing down thing.
Leonie in Sydney
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Marybeth
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 02 2005
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1277
|
| Posted: June 12 2005 at 7:31pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I know for me with one ds that I have spent way too much time these past few years volunteering out of the home. My ds needs more time with me. I'm intrigued by unschooling b/c it really seems in our house this is how the rabbit trails will start. I planned a lapbook needless to say it never got off the ground. If I wait for ds interest to lead than maybe my own feelings of frustration and failure will be less.
I know praying the rosary daily has been a calming influence on our days. We have been trying to attend Mass at least once weekly which helps also. Hopefully my cutting back on activities and really focusing on my family will lead to mreo famly fun activities and lots of learning!!
Marybeth
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: June 12 2005 at 8:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Kathryn, Suzy consciously used the term because Susan Schaeffer Macaulay's book was one of the main influences on her early homeschooling, and especially CM's view of the children as persons. She moved from Mary Kay Clark's book, to SSM "For the Children's Sake" to John Holt and Growing without Schooling, and Raymond and Dorothy Moore. It was funny because I started at the other end -- Holt and Moore and Nancy Wallace, then Seton, then CM. Then to classical!
I have a couple of children who ask for structure and sequence in their learning. So it makes me wonder if an unschooler would still consider herself one if she gave this to her children when they asked (whether in words, or in drifting without it).
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Natalia
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Louisiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1343
|
| Posted: June 12 2005 at 10:17pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
"Because unschooling, like all homeschooling, is for the child's sake, the knowledge and skills proposed are not accidental; they are those which the child needs to become truly happy. "
I noticed that she said "those which the child needs to become Truly happy. " She didn't say those which the child needs to become successful or to be able to make it in the world or to be a well adjusted adults or... Truly happy... I thought that was interesting. We could ask what is it that makes us truly happy? how do we understand happiness? The answer to those questions might help us on deciding our goals. What knowledge and skills do you think that a child needs to be truly happy?
Quoting Penny G. she says: " Do not take too much upon yourselves, but leave time and scope for the workings of nature and of a higher Power that Nature herself"
I still think that this is what keeps me from jumping on the unschooling "wagon". What does this actually looks like?
When she talks about the parents teaching less, what does that look like? I have never "lecture". i read aloud and I answer questions if the kids have them. I don't even have very many discussions of what we read - when using SL I always ignored the study questions. Is that what she is talking about? But on the other hand, I have been the one deciding what subjects we are going to cover, what books we are going to use, what lapbooks we are going to make. Sometimes those books or lapbooks have built on a current interest of one of my children but otherwise it has been my idea. Trying lapbooks was my idea. Is this taking the role of a primary agent? I feel that the line between being a primary agent and a secondary agent is a fine one don't you think?
I guess that it is as SA says that the emphasis on the learning done by the student is not unique to unschooling but that unschooling takes this principle farther.
Natalia
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: June 13 2005 at 6:56am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm getting ahead in the book, but here is an online version of Ronald Knox's The Creed in Slow Motion. Just in case anyone else is interested!
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: June 13 2005 at 7:07am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Natalia wrote:
I feel that the line between being a primary agent and a secondary agent is a fine one don't you think?
I guess that it is as SA says that the emphasis on the learning done by the student is not unique to unschooling but that unschooling takes this principle farther.
|
|
|
I am asking myself the same questions as you ask, Natalia, and hope others will answer. I too think it's sort of hard to tell, but she does mention a parent can initiate things. And I suppose parents DO initiate things all the time by the way they live their lives. If I have a sewing hobby the chances are good one or more of the kids will pick up sewing. If I love going outside and naturally talk to my kids about the names of the plants and insects, they will pick up that knowledge with joy and remember it all their lives (unless I lecture and make it schooly).
Also, as you say, it seems to be somewhat a continuum -- Suzy quotes Patrick Farenga as saying that unschooling is letting kids learn naturally to the extent the parents can bear it (or something like that). When I read back issues of Growing without Schooling, the early ones especially, the parents were VERY interested in their kids learning and education. They didn't want to turn out illiterates who couldn't add change. The difference was that they wanted their children to make the act of the will THEMSELVES to learn and that they didn't want their kids to see learning as something that only happens in a classroom type situation. So they would try one thing, watch the kids, try something else, and sometimes they did use "schoolish" methods and resources but then backed up when they saw that resistance or unreadiness or boredom in their kids. It was sort of a balancing act between their desire to impart to their children what THEY the parents thought to be essential for their happiness, and their desire to elicit consent and enthuasiasm and natural learning energies in their kids.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: June 13 2005 at 8:22am | IP Logged
|
|
|
WJFR wrote:
[. I too think it's sort of hard to tell, but she does mention a parent can initiate things. And I suppose parents DO initiate things all the time by the way they live their lives. If I have a sewing hobby the chances are good one or more of the kids will pick up sewing. If I love going outside and naturally talk to my kids about the names of the plants and insects, they will pick up that knowledge with joy and remember it all their lives (unless I lecture and make it schooly).
|
|
|
This is absolutely true! Suzie and her husband both went to TAC. They both went to get Phds in philosophy at Notre Dame and her husband is a philosophy professor. All of that is certainly present in their home--it has to be; it's who they are.
People ask me all the time what it is I feed my kids or do or teach that makes them all such good athletes at a remarkably young age. I've often thought about the answer to that.Some of it is genetics, certainly. But they live in an athletic environment. The first four were born when my husband worked in an athletic department in a major university. Now, he works for professional athletic teams. Our friends are athletes and administrators of athletics. It's in the air they breathe! And they love sport, in part, because we love sport. But they bring themselves to the experience as well. Neither of us ever played soccer. DH played baseball in college. Our children are serious soccer and basketball players and none of them plays baseball anymore (though Nicholas says he will). Environment is a powerful teacher.
Laundry analogies, sports comparisons...
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Natalia
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Louisiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1343
|
| Posted: June 13 2005 at 10:19am | IP Logged
|
|
|
WJFR wrote:
| When I read back issues of Growing without Schooling, the early ones especially, the parents were VERY interested in their kids learning and education. They didn't want to turn out illiterates who couldn't add change. The difference was that they wanted their children to make the act of the will THEMSELVES to learn and that they didn't want their kids to see learning as something that only happens in a classroom type situation. So they would try one thing, watch the kids, try something else, and sometimes they did use "schoolish" methods and resources but then backed up when they saw that resistance or unreadiness or boredom in their kids. It was sort of a balancing act between their desire to impart to their children what THEY the parents thought to be essential for their happiness, and their desire to elicit consent and enthuasiasm and natural learning energies in their kids. |
|
|
I could identify with something like that. But quoting Farenga, Andres says: "Learning to read or do quadratic equations are not 'natural' processes, but unschoolers nonetheless learn them when it makes sense to them to do so, not because they have reached a certain age or are compelled to do so by arbitrary authority".
I think that waiting to teach them certain skills like reading and do math or go to the bathroom ( I am dealing with potty training right now) until they show signs of readiness makes sense to me. But, I still think that there is a certain body of knowledge that I would like my kids to be familiar with. Maybe I am returning to the concept of Cultural Literacy here but, I think there is a core of knowledge that I want to pass on to my kids. I am thinking not only about the Faith but the classics, a certain knowledge of the universe and how it works,etc. I can not see myself waiting for my kids to show interest to know those things. What if my time with them passes? Well, I could see an unschooler saying that if they need that knowledge they will eventually learn it because they woul've spent their "school years" learning to learn therefore they will know where to look for that information. (Can you tell I am thinking aloud here? - I hope it doesn't sound too much like stream of consciousness writing here)
Farenga talks about using school tools on an "on demand" basis as need and interest arises. "This is the way we learn before going to school and the way we learn when we leave school and enter the world of work", he says. I can see that in my own learning and reading. But learning that way makes me feel disorganized. It makes me feel that I have a lot of superficial knowledge about a lot of things but no deep knowledge of anything. I wouldn't want my kids to be so haphazard in the way the learn. I think there is a place for learning to learn in an orderly fashion. I don't know if I have an accurate image but to me the learning done in an unschooling environment seems chaotic- in a good sense. I just don't feel comfortable with that but of course an unschooler might say that the one that has to feel comfortable is the student right?
Natalia
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Book Club
Topic: Homeschooling with Gentleness
