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Kim F
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| Posted: June 04 2005 at 8:49am | IP Logged
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<<Raymond Moore used to get angry that homeschooling became another model of schism -with evangelicals/fundamentalists leading the way. His original vision was that homeschooling would be a community of diverse points of view, rallying around the educational model/vision >>
It would be good to clarify here that we arent referring to inclusive groups. I have no problem with a truly inclusive group and have been active in those in different cities over the yrs. Our military base group was like that and we sucessfully merged families who were Christian, Mormon, and atheist among others. But an inclusive group does not require a statement of faith that clearly excludes traditional Catholicism. I have a problem with either signing those falsely because our beliefs are *close enough* or getting *permission* with from the board to join, especially knowing that it doesnt generally go the other way. How often do you see evangelical/fundementalist families make compromises like that to join a totally Catholic group?
They DO lead the way as Moore said but our joining their groups does not make them inclusive. It makes for a Catholic family joining a group with a decidedly non-Catholic religious point of view. This just makes me a lot less comfortable than I need to be right now.
Kim
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juliecinci
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| Posted: June 04 2005 at 10:29am | IP Logged
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Quote:
| I have no problem with a truly inclusive group and have been active in those in different cities over the yrs. But an inclusive group does not require a statement of faith that clearly excludes traditional Catholicism. I have a problem with either signing those falsely because our beliefs are *close enough* or getting *permission* with from the board to join, especially knowing that it doesnt generally go the other way. How often do you see evangelical/fundementalist families make compromises like that to join a totally Catholic group? |
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Yes, I totally understand this. I have been victim of a statement of faith debacle... long story, but upshot is that when I started my degree at Xavier, a local evangelical friend tried to have me ousted from our homeschool support group... and succeeded. I do know of what you speak. It was a nightmare.
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| They DO lead the way as Moore |
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I meant they led the way in being exclusive and splintering the movement. According to Moore, the evangelical Protestant homeschool movement is responsible for the fracturing of what he intended to be a holistic movement. I agree with your critique.
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It makes (it hard) for a Catholic family joining a group with a decidedly non-Catholic religious point of view. This just makes me a lot less comfortable than I need to be right now.
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I wonder if I miscommunicated. I wasn't meaning that Catholics should join evangelical homeschool groups that are hostile to Catholicism or that require you to sign statements of faith that violate Catholic beliefs. I thought the discussion was about social groups.
For instance, in our area, we've had dance classes, art classes, a homeschool end of the year high school dance and dinner, homeschool band, teen nights for homeschoolers, homeschool camp, homeschool co-op... All of these are open to Christian homeschoolers, not just to those who sign the CHEO statement of faith.
In fact, our co-op wrote a statement of values instead of a statement of faith so that they would be more inclusive and not prevent Catholics or liturgical Christians from being able to join and participate.
So my point was that if a Protestant run group is inclusive, even if they are the ones who started the group, it's worth it to join as a Catholic, if you are looking for social outlets for your teens.
Not meaning to cause anxiety in anyone. Sorry!
__________________
Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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Leonie
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I wonder if this is more of an issue in the US? I have been a member of many homeschooling groups during our moves and none here in Australia, that I have known about and "joined", have required a statement of faith.
Leonie in Sydney - hoping she didn't step on any toes.
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Kim F
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| Posted: June 04 2005 at 8:02pm | IP Logged
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No toes stepped on! : ) It's definitely been an issue some places we have been. I think its a bigger issue with newer groups of homeschoolers who may not even know of Moore and Holt and their generation of homeschooling. We were interested in a classical co-op program here that had latin tutoring. Had that durn statement of faith though and they were not budging. I tried to sign the Nicene Creed as an alternative. The woman in charge said no way. I quote: "We can't just have people deciding what they will believe and what they won't." I was like hello? What exactly does Protestant come from again?
It goes both ways too. We have Catholic homeschool groups who wont allow non-Catholics in. There is a place for both kinds of groups. I just wouldnt feel comfortable being the only Catholic in an environment where doctrine would be discussed. I can't fathom for instance why my Catholic friends send their kids to evangelical coop classes for renaissance history lessons but then are too busy to attend the Catholic functions. Hence we have no teens there half the time. Venting! ; o
Kim
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ALmom
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Hi all,
Part of the problem here is that state laws require us to be a part of a school that is a ministry of a local church. Hs, as such, is not recognized in our state. What happens is that various cover schools are formed with the support of a local church - thus becoming a ministry of that church. There is no other way around it.
When Catholic hs in this area started hs, it was really tough because there was not a single parish that would even have thought of supporting us. Protestants, when they started out and couldn't find local church support, could just get a mail order divinity degree and start their own church. Catholics, obviously, aren't free to do that. All the early Catholic hs here couldn't think of a way to hs except through Protestant covers. The Protestants weren't necessarily trying to exclude Catholics, they simply were trying to come up with as broad a statement to be inclusive and just weren't aware of how their statement excluded Catholics. I'm not saying individuals in the groups were thrilled when Catholics were admitted, but the founders seemed to have been trying to be open.
However, we still were uncomfortable with that arrangement. Another family and I began talking about how there ought to be a way to do things. We found someone else in the state, but in another diocese who had come up with a rather clever strategy around lack of local support. Catholics are a universal church, and Catholic churches are present in our state, therefore we just needed to show that we were technically a group of lay people supporting fellow Catholics. We used documents from the Vatican to support our point of view, consulted HSLDA, who was willing to back us legally and we had a cover school but did not use Catholic in our name. Instead of a statement of faith, we simply required that one parent be a practicing Catholic. This is viewed by some as exclusive and some got upset and left, but this is the only Catholic prescence in a state that requires you to be a ministry of a local church. We split the support group from the actual school so that everything but legal covering could be enjoyed by anyone who chose to associate with us. IE - All Saints Parties, field trips, etc. were open to anyone.
We took the attitude that we wanted to be supportive of our parishes regardless of their support for us and did not consider ourselves a challenge to the local Catholic private school. We let our pastor know we were homeschooling and he became impressed by our children and never challenged us at Sacrament time and even began including homeschoolers when religious ed teachers were acknowledged. IE, he became supportive over time due to the good example of his hs parishioners. He is now deceased.
At some point there was some question about how easy our legal position would be to defend if challenged and some concern with legal challenges. HSLDA advised that we try to get a letter from a local pastor to strengthen our legal standing. We'd been around for 10 years or more by then and generally supported by the priests if not by the parish administration at large. Our adminsitrator approached the new pastor and found him willing to sign for us with the bishop's OK. The bishop (now retired) actually chose to put his signature on a document which made us a ministry of the diocese for which we have been very grateful.
That's the history here. Generally there have been plenty of activities that involve Catholic and Protestants together - sports, band,debate, etc. Most of these are protestant founded (we are a minority in our state so this is to be expected) and run but no one that I know of has a problem participating in these activities. Hs in this area are excluded from all ps functions so we cannot have our children play sports with the public schools. Hs united and created their own sports team and compete in private school leagues and even have a hs tournament. There are science classes open to any hs, it's just hard to get in because there are only one or two teachers for all the hs in the area. These are generally not advertised as they are filled from previous students. We just learned about it this year and have been hs for 12 years or more.
My dd has participated in some of this - softball for instance. It did require a statement of faith even though it was not with the school but the statement was made in such a way that it was so broad any Christian could have signed it, including Catholics. We considered band which would have been the same type thing, but she preferred orchestra so we did that instead. Orchestra is a community supported function drawing hs, public schoolers, and private schoolers. The orchestra just happened to be about 50% hs.
However, there are some functions that are open to members only of these same schools - drama, oratorical society, graduation events. Our Catholic hs cover doesn't have any exclusive functions from the school, it's a legal entity for protecting our right to hs. As Catholics we have attempted to come together for graduation events so that we could combine the Catholic hs in the area from all the different cover schools for some sort of acknowledgement of activities. All other activities have been open, as far as I know, to anyone.
The particular group we are contemplating associating with is founded by someone who started their own church and publishes his church's statement of faith which is more specific than others. It definitely attacks the sacramental system. But the other schools require members to sign the statement of faith. This school is open to anyone, including non-Christians and does not require anyone to sign the statement of faith. However, we do sign to "honor" it while what we sign also clearly states that this in no way implies that this is the personal faith of the one signing. The word honor makes me uneasy, but the administrator and founders have given me written clarification that this means we are not trying to stir up trouble against their faith, that we would refrain from introducing things contrary to their statement of faith except in appropriate type events and that he does expect people to defend their own faith when challenged. I do think that this group is really trying to create a truely rich environment for character development, with more emphasis on the dress code and no-dating rules. Even here I see a great deal of discretion and tolerance.
We live in the Bible belt, so I am aware of the variety of attitudes and beliefs among Protestants and much that is very good. As Catholics in the deep south, we wouldn't even be able to isolate ourselves from Protestants if we tried(and I don't think that is healthy), so that is not the concern here. I do share the concern of members of the board who spoke about dangers in signing statements of faith. Cooperating and joining associations are two different things. In our state it is a fine line to determine which is which.
The particular group we are contemplating does not require us to sign a statement of faith and is open to non-Christians, so this does make it somewhat different than other hs associations started by Protestants.
What is most attractive to us is the atmosphere at functions that is intent on fostering a real character development in all members, encouraging a welcoming attitude, service to each other and family to family interaction. They do not plan age-segregated activities but want the older and younger members to learn to honor each other. They do not sponsor classes, that I know of, and as associates we'd be mostly involved in oratorical society, banquet, graduation, field day and other whole family type activities. My concern is being fully honest with myself and this group about my strongly held Catholic convictions. Because of our state laws, there must be some sort of sense that the hs is a ministry of a local church or it would not be a legal entity. As associates, we would not be a part of the legal school but we would be signing on to receive the benefits of their church outreach. Are we hair - splitting in order to try and join. There isn't a statement of faith, but there still is something we sign that says we read the statement of faith of the church (which could be viewed as anti-Catholic) and agree to honor it at all school functions. While the founder has assured me, in writing, that this is not a gag rule and our family would be free to defend our faith in any situation where it would come up - but do they really think it won't come up? Not all members of the school will be equally comfortable with a Catholic presence and perhaps they will have read what we sign without the founders clarification and our actions may cause scandal.
I also am aware of the reality of anti-Catholicism and the strong evangelical bent of many Protestants. It can sometimes be interpreted that you are not so in love with your own if you join with someone else, so there is that angle as well. When our previous parish was first established as a mission parish, attempts were made to block it because it was Catholic and Catholics were unwelcome at hardware store, etc. Not all Protestants are like this - the former Catholics are usually the worst. I also know the pull that can be achieved from the positive moral example, zeal and genuine charity that is there. I came home in 6th grade to tell my mom I was going to become Baptist and I had somehow come to think Catholics were not Christians. I was poorly educated in my faith, subject to the worst of the experimentation in Catholic catechesis and liturgy and impressed by the very positive example of a number of evangelicals - none of whom ever said a word against Catholicism. Granted - our children are catechized better than I was and faith is not so easily stolen but there is something subtle that goes on when the exposure in Catholic circles is sometimes scandalous, and you are exposed to the best in Protestantism. This is especially true of the youngest.
We would remain a member of our own Catholic hs and continue to be active in the support group activities here - continuing to try and foster more. Unfortunately, for us, the Catholic hs in the area are more interested in age segregated activities and that is harder for us to do. At functions all the teens congregate in one section, while the little ones run wild. This really frazzles me and drives me nuts. Perhaps this is my own problem, but I want my children to maintain appropriate indoor behaviour at indoor functions, to learn to sit still and refrain from being a distraction at a short formal event. I also expect my older to respect their younger siblings, and help them and appreciate the effort a young one exerts to allow them a more formal event. I expect all my children to be conscious of not creating undo messes for someone else to clean up - so if one of our toddlers spills something, I expect whichever of us sees it first to help clean up, to help the toddler with plates etc. so we do not make excessive messes. It is all an extension of the same thing we try to teach in the family. I know some of the differences experienced at Catholic hs functions is that most of the families attending have a large number of young children, with only a handful of older ones whereas the Protestant groups have larger overall numbers and a more even balance of older and younger, so I am not criticizing parents here. We're all doing the very best we can under sometimes difficult circumstances.
With a large family, it doesn't make sense to do a lot of social, age segregated things as that would mean me spending my life in the car. None of our children are close enough in age to really do these age-segregated events together (occassionally one or two might be in the same age range) so this would mean 6 seperate activities. We discovered how crazy that became even with recreational sports. We have two sons who, skill level and size wise, could safely play a sport together but they would never be in the same age bracket for recreational sports as one is 8 and the other 11. It destroyed all family life, the summer we did that with 3 of ours playing rec ball with the city.
The ages of our children are 17, 13, 11, 8, 5, and 2. It's not that we don't allow our children to participate in age segregated activities for areas of strong personal interest or go out with friends to individual things. We do, however, have to be selective here, or we'd never see each other. I just don't see a point in going to a field trip geared to just one age group. And I don't see having a social get together for just the toddlers. I am also not keen on trying to encourage age segregation.
I do want to see our 17 and 13 yo cheerfully assist 5 and 2 yo while still being able to visit - and mom and dad doing the same. If we go to a pot-luck, I cannot deal with all the teens running to a corner to converse while moms and dads go off chatting and the toddlers run around making a mess. We have been with other families where their teens are likewise expected to help out and they visit and take turns helping toddlers and introduce their toddler sibblings to their teen friends. This is so much healthier and is what I see at the functions sponsored by the group we are thinking about associating with. Perhaps it just has to do with the age mixes of the families there. Their field day involves the whole family with all the dads and some of the older teen young men giving instruction on technique. They do divide the group up for safety purposes, but everyone scrimmages at the same time and place followed by a family picnic. So once per month you have soccer instruction, scrimmage and meal - for everyone in the family. There are usually at least 3 different type physical activities and everyone seems happy to move between ages. For whatever reason, this does not happen at our Catholic hs functions (open to anyone but protestants almost never choose to attend except an occassional friend of a member) which tend to group more by age.
Perhaps this explains some of our agony in trying to make this decision. Some things we can do family to family - and our friends include Protestants and Catholics. But we also see a positive way to introduce our sons to rudimentary sports rules. They are not going to play higher level sports if no one teaches technique to them. We found rec ball did not do much in this regards unless you started your children at 5. By 8, they were considered washouts if they hadn't been playing for a number of years and none of the coaches wanted them - they ended up relegated to a team and ignored other than the minimal 3 innings they had to play.
We also see benefits for the more formal type graduation our older wants, plus the healthy interaction between older and younger. She won't be the only one having to help siblings, assist with clean up etc. and won't end up left out of conversations because she is helping with a toddler. The situation at our Catholic hs is that most of the teens involved are the youngest in a family so there are no toddlers left to help with and families with toddlers tend to have lots of little children and very few older ones. So I'm not saying our families aren't trying for the same thing, it just is a matter of dynamics involved with those there. It is very hard for us to attend too many field trips - we arranged quite a few early on and became very concerned with safety issues - like the cotton gin we went to and little children were running all over and trucks coming in. I found field trips more beneficial when we just toured a museum by ourselves or with one other family or you just didn't end up with enough supervision.
I'm still re-reading and contemplating all that everyone has said and continue to pray for guidance for our family.
Janet
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: teens and socialization
