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Genevieve
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| Posted: Feb 15 2007 at 9:45pm | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
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| Knowledge is not sensation, nor is it to be derived through sensation; we feed upon the thoughts of other minds; and thought applied to thought generates thought and we become more thoughtful. |
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This seems to be her objection to methods of education that rely too heavily on "sensory" things. She thinks these things -- such rhythmic dancing, sensory work, creative self-expression, are valuable, but not sufficient in themselves. |
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Willa, or anyone else, could you elaborate more on knowledge is not sensation? You mention rhythimic dancing and creative self-expression. How is this different from narration with a twist? A lot of narrations my 4 year old gives me is through painting and forming clay. It shows me what expreiences and books have touched his heart. Perhaps I am confused with Montessori sensorial work. Then again, Montessori talks how a child learns through sensorial experiences during the early years. It is through sensorial knowledge that the child can form abstract ideas.
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Genevieve
The Good Within
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Willa
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Genevieve wrote:
| Willa, or anyone else, could you elaborate more on knowledge is not sensation? You mention rhythimic dancing and creative self-expression. How is this different from narration with a twist? A lot of narrations my 4 year old gives me is through painting and forming clay. It shows me what expreiences and books have touched his heart. Perhaps I am confused with Montessori sensorial work. Then again, Montessori talks how a child learns through sensorial experiences during the early years. It is through sensorial knowledge that the child can form abstract ideas. |
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I think the time CM was writing was when there were a bunch of spin-offs of Montessori's and Rudolf Steiner's thoughts on children. It was a time of transition of educational thought and the educational experimentation mingled with the philosophy of the time, which had tendencies towards Modernism.
CM thought handiwork and hands-on and disciplined movement were very good things and planned these into the school schedule.
However, she was trying to point out that these things in themselves aren't enough. Not that they aren't good, but that they aren't knowledge.
I think from reading the Pope's encyclical written around the same time, and from some writings from Chesterton and others, that there must have been a misunderstanding about knowledge in the air at that time. There is a Latin word "ducere" which means to draw and also to lead or guide and the word "education" is based on that Latin. So I think some thinkers on education thought that education was just a matter of "drawing out" what was already inside the child.
Charlotte Mason's position is a bit different, but sometimes confused with this one. She thought children were born complete persons, but that the "food" of the mind was Ideas and that led to knowledge. So rhythmic movements and arts and crafts might put the body (and consequently the mind, since they are so integrally related) in better form to receive and assimilate ideas, but they weren't Ideas and only ideas lead to knowledge.
Of course, your example of using materials and movement to EXPRESS ideas is quite a bit different because as you say, it's a form of narration. She did have children put on little skits or write poetry or make relief maps in the sand, things like that as a form of narration. She also had them draw their own illustrations of books they were reading. So you are very much on the right track!
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Willa
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Willa
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PS I'm not saying that MOntessori or Steiner were modernistic, just in case that was not clear. I don't exactly know how CM felt about Montessori or Waldorf. I just wanted to point out that some of the educational excesses of CM's times pointed back to false theories of what the human being was like.
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Willa
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Lissa
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MicheleQ wrote:
Well, um, gee I'm feeling a bit self conscious here. I was hoping I'd come back and find a good conversation going but now I'm wondering if everyone whose read this just thinks I am full of it. 
Doesn't anyone have anything else to say?? |
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Michele, here it is a week and a half later, and I am only just now getting to read the thread! I'll read the rest before I add my comments, but for now just wanted to say I loved what you & Willa wrote, and you are most certainly NOT full of it!
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Lissa
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Mary G wrote:
Michele -- how could I think you're full of it?
I just re-read chapter 1 tonight and agree with most (if not all  )of what you say. This chapter (and in fact this book) really sold me on CM's philosophy of education. I'm just not sure why she never went the "whole way" and suggested folks homeschool as who is more apt to see the whole child, the potential of the child and his/her person-ness.
I like her distinction between a well-written text and a "rhetorical passage written in journalese" -- basically, altho she doesn't use the term here -- living books vs twaddle.
I really like her closing line at the end of Chap 1:
The teacher who allows his students the freedom of the city of books is at liberty to be their guide, philosopher and friend; and is no longer the mere instrument of forcible intellectual feeding.
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Mary, I love that quote too! I even blogged about it yesterday!! I was musingmusing about how very much CM's ideas shaped me as a mother (not just a homeschooler but the whole picture).
Willa wrote:
| I think from reading the Pope's encyclical written around the same time, and from some writings from Chesterton and others, that there must have been a misunderstanding about knowledge in the air at that time. There is a Latin word "ducere" which means to draw and also to lead or guide and the word "education" is based on that Latin. So I think some thinkers on education thought that education was just a matter of "drawing out" what was already inside the child |
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Willa, I think that's a very good description of Steiner's beliefs...so much of what he recommended had to do with presenting material which was supposed to parallel the child's physical and spiritual developmental stage. Old Testament stories at age nine to parallel the rebelliousness of the "nine-year change;" ancient Rome at age 12 when children are supposed to be logical and pragmatic; and so forth. And the teacher is only to present the material in a somewhat raw form and let it "speak" to the inner workings of the child. This viewpoint suggests a kind of esoteric, innate spiritual knowledge (connected of course to Steiner's belief in reincarnation and karma) which it is the teacher's job to, as you say, draw out; and so yes, I would agree that CM is countering those ideas with her understanding of knowledge as something that grows out of study, observation, and thought (and also maturity), and which is the result of chewing on well-articulated Ideas and pondering relationships and connections.
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: Feb 20 2007 at 8:49am | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote:
MicheleQ wrote:
Well, um, gee I'm feeling a bit self conscious here. I was hoping I'd come back and find a good conversation going but now I'm wondering if everyone whose read this just thinks I am full of it.
Doesn't anyone have anything else to say?? |
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Michele, here it is a week and a half later, and I am only just now getting to read the thread! I'll read the rest before I add my comments, but for now just wanted to say I loved what you & Willa wrote, and you are most certainly NOT full of it! |
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Oh Lissa how embarrassing!  Forgive me everyone for my petulance. I shouldn't have written that...and here it is all this time later and I haven't responded to everyone's wonderful comments either! No time - life's pretty busy right now.
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
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4Real Forums : Book Club
Topic: CM vol 6 --ch 1 Self-Education
