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alicegunther
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kjohnson wrote:
| So an Eastern Christian most often would call her the Theotokos because it is a matter of doctrine defined by the Church and protects the true teaching of Christ. Very rarely do you hear an Eastern Christian call her simply Mary. |
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I love it. Mary, Mother of God is my favorite Marian title (so much more than a mere "title," but I say this for lack of a better word), and it is beautiful to have a single, perfect word for this: Theotokos.
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kjohnson
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Jenn, all my daughters have the first name "Mary" but that really traces back to my own family tradition (Italian). In Orthodoxy children are given a Christian name (most often the name of a saint other than Mary) because the eastern tradition is to receive the Eucharist by name, "The servant of God [baptismal name] receives the Body and Blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life." So the naming is not just a part of tradition but is sacramentally essential.
I do know a few Orthodox Christians who are named for the Theotokos and celebrate their Name Day on the feast of the Dormition. All 3 of my girls celebrate their name days and receive the Eucharist by their middle name, not by the name of the Theotokos.
I don't know if that's a good explanation. There is no rule about it.
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kjohnson
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alicegunther wrote:
| I love it. Mary, Mother of God is my favorite Marian title (so much more than a mere "title," but I say this for lack of a better word), and it is beautiful to have a single, perfect word for this: Theotokos. |
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Alice, I remember you saying this in your blog post on January 1.
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Helen
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kjohnson wrote:
Jenn, the title Theotokos is the only title given to Mary in an Ecumenical Council. It was bestowed on Mary to fight the heresy of Nestorius who taught that Mary was only the mother of Christ (Christotokos) and not the Mother of His Divinity. This preserved the doctrine of the hypostatic union (that Jesus' human and divine natures are inseparable).
So an Eastern Christian most often would call her the Theotokos because it is a matter of doctrine defined by the Church and protects the true teaching of Christ. Very rarely do you hear an Eastern Christian call her simply Mary. |
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Katherine,
I just learned at my last formation meeting that St. Maximilian refers to Our Lady as the Immaculate as a way of using her "first" name. Since she is the Immaculate Conception, he calls her The Immaculate as almost a personal greeting to her.
(Being the eve of the Feast day of Our Lady of Lourdes, I bring this up in her honor) Our Lady referred to herself as The Immaculate Conception - not as Immacualtely conceived etc.
Since this is an easily identifiable doctrine of the Church (At least I'm assuming this is easily identifiably a doctrine since it was "defined" by Bl. Pius IX) would you consider Our Lady's name as the Immaculate Conception similar to the Theotokos? as though the whole church agrees with it? (As opposed to simply Lourdes which is private revleation.)
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kjohnson
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The Eastern Churches don't use the title Immaculate Conception and are not bound to the developments of the West past the Great Schism. As far as the the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, Pius IX used language that is completely foreign to the east in defining it. The East does not use the Augustinian framework of original sin being an inherited stain, so the dogma makes no sense to an Eastern Christian.
The Eastern expression of this truth of Mary's sinlessness and purity is that the Theotokos was conceived with the full indwelling of the Holy Spirit (full of grace). Her purity is not questioned in the East, but since the East doesn't believe the same thing about the nature of sin, this dogma is not an eastern dogma.
So to answer your question, if you're a Roman Catholic you could definitely claim that the title Immaculate Conception is an official dogmatic title of Mary. If you're an Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Christian, you would not find that the title held dogmatic weight.
I think I just opened a big can of worms. 
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aussieannie
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kjohnson wrote:
| The East does not use the Augustinian framework of original sin being an inherited stain, so the dogma makes no sense to an Eastern Christian. |
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Katherine, how do the East see original sin and therefore how does it in turn affect God's ability to free Mary beforehand from this stain?....just looking for expansion on the East's framework.
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aussieannie
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My husband has just piped in and said he thought that when he lived in the States he used to go to a Ukranian Byzantine Church, called The Immaculate Conception in Miami Florida. I did a search for him and it wasn't but there are Ukranian Church's with this title - is there a differing of opinions or different divisions in the Eastern world?
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kjohnson
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The Eastern Catholic churches have been highly latinized over the past century in America. In fact many eastern Catholics in the last century have made a mass exodus to Orthodoxy. John Paul's work on dealing with the relationship between the eastern and western churches was a call for the eastern churches to return to authentically eastern practices and theology and to remove from their practice and worship the western influences.
It is a slow practice and yes, the eastern Catholic churches are a very mixed bag right now. Many eastern churches still have very hybrid customs.
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kjohnson
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aussieannie wrote:
| Katherine, how do the East see original sin and therefore how does it in turn affect God's ability to free Mary beforehand from this stain?....just looking for expansion on the East's framework. |
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The East doesn't teach that there is a stain at all. So it's simply not an issue. The language of "stain" is Augustinian. He was a Latin father who never influenced the East.
From the eastern perspective, God didn't need to free the Theotokos from anything, rather He gave her what our first parent's lost: the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
What we inherit from Adam and Eve is a human nature that is subject to death and therefore suffering. It's a matter of being subject and enslaved to death and the triumph of Jesus is that He took on our human nature, tasted death, filled it with Life and transformed that which kept us captive into a passage to eternal Life. (The language of reparation and satisfaction is from Anselm, and is not part of Eastern theology either.)
But there is no concept in the East of an inherited stain that merits punishment. Sin in the scriptures is the Greek word "amartia" which means "missing the mark." All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God (St. Paul). And God created the Theotokos with this glory. She is the model of the fullness of our salvation.
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MacBeth
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The Ukrainian cathedral in Philadelphia is called Immaculate Conception. From what I understand, the dogma requires "universal acceptance, " that is, acceptance by the entire Catholic church, as ex cathedra. But I understand that the language may be an issue--not the substance--for the eastern rite churches.
One source I checked said that certain eastern churches have "Latinized" their language, and are derided by other eastern rite Catholics for this change.
Interesting discussion.
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aussieannie
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Katherine, I'm off to Sunday Mass, but from quickly reading - are we still believing the same thing then just a different way of understanding it? From reading it, I tend to think so, but I could be missing something.
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aussieannie
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MacBeth wrote:
| But I understand that the language may be an issue--not the substance--for the eastern rite churches. |
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Thank you MacBeth! I think you have worded better what I was wondering - 'the substance' sounds the same.
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Lissa
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Catching up here after a busy week, and I just wanted to thank you all for your posts on this forum. This, like the welcome thread and the True Devotion thread, has been an awesome and edifying discussion. I can't begin to express how grateful I am for the blessings the Hidden Treasure has brought my way in the past two weeks.
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Helen
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May I suggest that we close this thread for now?
Katherine if you would like to begin a new thread about discussion of devotion to the Theotokos, you are most welcome. (Although, I realize you are about to have a baby and need all the rest you can get. Please don't take this as a suggestion, only as an invitation.)
I hope to introduce a new thread tonight, "seeds of devotion." I look forward your generous participation. 
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Helen
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Moderator's Note:
I am adding a final post to this thread to clarify a point of Eastern Rite Catholicism. Please take a look at this response, written by Father Angelo Mary Geiger, FI , General Delegate, U.S.A., to the question of whether or not Eastern Rite Catholics are bound to the teachings of the Pope:
*******
The answer to your question as to whether all Catholics are bound by the teaching of the pope, the answer is yes. In fact this is what distinguishes Eastern Rite Uniate Catholics from Orthodox.
Catholic means universal. The Orthodox Church does not believe in the teaching office of the Roman Pontiff as the visible head of the Church on earth. Orthodoxy will grant a primacy of honor to the Roman See to some measure, but that in itself is by no means enough to constitute union with the Roman Catholic Church.
The belief in the Immaculate Conception as defined by Pius XI is part of the Tradition and infallible teaching of the Catholic Church (East and West) and is necessary for full communion with the Roman Catholic Church.
Roman Catholicism does not repudiate Eastern formulations that are different
from the Western tradition as long as they are complimentary and not
contradictory.
Hence the CCC on the Immaculate Conception (notice last paragraph):
The Immaculate Conception
490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God
with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the
moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace".133 In
fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her
faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that
she
be wholly borne by God's grace.
491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware
that
Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment
of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate
Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her
conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and
by
virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race,
preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135
492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is
"enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly
from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason
of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any
other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in
the
heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of
the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137
493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God
"the
All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of
sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new
creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every
personal sin her whole life long.
*VATICAN II PRAISED EASTERN TRADITIONS*
*Pope John Paul II*
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------
*/General Audience 9 August 1995/*
5. According to the Council, "the Churches of the East, while keeping
in
mind the necessary unity of the whole Church, have the power to govern
themselves according to their own disciplines" (/Unitatis
redintegratio/, n. 17). There is also a legitimate diversity in handing
on the one doctrine received from the Apostles. The various theological
formulas of the East and the West are frequently complementary rather
than conflicting. The Council also notes that the authentic theological
traditions of the Orientals are "admirably rooted in Holy Scripture"
(/Unitatis redintegratio/, n. 17).
Therefore, we must grow in our knowledge of what the Council taught and
recommended about respecting the practices, customs and spiritual
traditions of the Eastern Churches. We must strive for relations of
sincere charity and fruitful collaboration with them, in full fidelity
to the truth. We can only share and repeat our wish that "friendly
collaboration with them may increase in a spirit of love, without
bickering or rivalry" (/Unitatis redintegratio/, n. 18). Yes, may the
Lord truly grant this as a gift of his love to the Church of our time!
{/quote]
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4Real Forums : Hidden Treasure
Topic: Many questions (
Topic Closed)
