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kjohnson
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Janette, you articulated something that I failed to say in my last post. It is a matter of the impression that these terms give others or how they sit within our own hearts.
For those who are drawn to the total consecration and find comfort in these images, I do not doubt that their love for the Mother of God is beautiful. It's just not my own spirituality. I am coming from a very different tradition within the Church. But that is the beauty of the Church, we don't have to come to know our Mother only by one avenue (in this case by studying the spirituality of a 17th century French saint). And as far as this saints choice of words, the saints always used terminology that their current readers would most connect to and de Montfort was persecuted by the Jansenists and his language reflects that.
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Katherine
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Helen
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kjohnson wrote:
| I agree with Elizabeth regarding the idea that slavery and objectification always imply a complete lack of love. ... The original Greek work for repent (metanoia) means to turn around. We have to always turn around to follow God. There is never a point where we just deflate ourselves and let another person animate us. ... |
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We don’t need anything fancy to talk about consecration to Mary. Consecration means wanting to be a child of Mary just as Jesus was.
We know as mothers that there are many different ways for children to behave. There are the less agreeable behaviors (unruly, selfish, willful, jealous, young and not understanding) and then there are times when our children behave angelic (obedient, willing to help, attending to our words, taking our advice even wearing our shoes and scarves). It is delightful and charming when a young child follows the lead of his mother.
Consecration to Our Lady as her slave and property simply means the desire be her sweet, docile child exactly following the example of the Lord. These words are a recognition of our weakened condition in need of her presence. These words recognize our need for humility by recognizing the difficulty of an adult to behave in a childlike manner.
How did Our Lord put it?
To enter the kingdom of God, you must become like a little child.
I don't have more time now, I will get back to the idea of "a 17th century French saint."
One of the reasons for reading True Devotion together is for a common understanding of what exactly "slave and property" mean. I hope you will consider reading a little bit with us. 
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kjohnson
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I'm not trying to use fancy talk. I'm really a pretty simple person. I'm just expressing to you my faith which is based on the early church's understanding of repentance. The simplicity of turning to God.
I think it's OK to be unable to connect the image of a docile child with the title of a slave or object. That is just not how the Theotokos has shown herself to me. And this imagery is simply part of a particular devotion.
The only thing I meant by bringing up the 17th century French saint comment is that this is not a matter of doctrine. There is no reason to have to convince one another of being right or wrong. It's a small "t" tradition within the Universal Church. I certainly did not mean to imply that this devotion is not authentic to Roman Catholicism. It definitely is part of the western tradition and has become a very popular way of relating to Mary since the 17th century. But it's not the only path to understanding our Mother.
I have read True Devotion twice and before we found the Eastern Church I was enrolled as a member in the Confraternity. But as I've grown in my faith, I've come to understand my relationship with the Theotokos in a very different way. A very ancient way.
I apologize if this has seemed offensive to you or to anyone else. It was never my attempt to tear down where you have found peace, but to express my own faith. I thought the purpose of the Hidden Treasure forum was for us to share our own relationship with our common Mother. I'm sorry if my comments were counter-productive to what you are wanting to achieve in this forum. I've never wanted to be a cause of division, but only wanted to contribute in sharing the many facets of our faith.
There's no reason to get back to me on anything. We should probably just let it go. I would hate for this to turn into a heated debate. That would run counter to trying to share our love for the Mother of God. She doesn't want that. 
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Katherine
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cathhomeschool
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I don't perceive you as trying to tear anyone down, Katherine. I think that I personally lie somewhere in the middle here as far as east and west. I have very little experience with Eastern devotions, but love what I have seen and experienced. I love the Roman traditions too. I look forward to exploring both traditions further as I grow in faith. We are all heading towards the same end on this journey, we just don't always walk on the same path or get to the end at the same time!
kjohnson wrote:
| I thought the purpose of the Hidden Treasure forum was for us to share our own relationship with our common Mother. I'm sorry if my comments were counter-productive to what you are wanting to achieve in this forum. |
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The purpose here is to share our experiences. Sometimes what we share will resonate with someone, sometimes it will be a "new" idea or way of looking at the same thing. It is all valid and welcomed here. As with all the other forums at 4Real, we strive to build a community here in which we can all learn from each other in an atmosphere of mutual respect and charity. I think that differences of opinion are expected and even welcomed (I think  ), so long as we are respectful of each other. Nothing I've said here is "new." I'm just restating it because I want to make sure that everyone feels welcomed and knows that their ideas are respected. I don't want anyone to feel too intimidated to post their experiences. Helen and Alice are very loving people, and I can't imagine either of them brushing anyone off or disregarding their ideas. They have both been very kind to me in my questioning and my baby steps.
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Helen
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Dear Katherine,
I just want to say, I'm sorry.
Your devotion to Our Lady is most welcome here and an important part of our growing in our love for her. Please feel free to speak your mind and love for Our Lady. I look forward to learning more about the ancient traditions in the Church with more of your posts to this thread or any new ones you would like to begin.
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kjohnson wrote:
| For those who are drawn to the total consecration and find comfort in these images, I do not doubt that their love for the Mother of God is beautiful. It's just not my own spirituality. I am coming from a very different tradition within the Church. |
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Do you mind--I hope I'm not being nosey--- explaining your own spirituality and from what tradition you come?
Katherine, I have been so interested in this discussion! This is really peaking my interest now because I have personal experience---(when my daughter did a Come and See at an order named the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary--the approved traditional MICM) with relatives who feel strongly that being a Slave to the Immaculate (or a Slave to Jesus) is a completely repulsive thought to them....connotates an abusive relationship and is not healthy...harmful to the mental/emotional/spiritual life.
Thank you!
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~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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kjohnson
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Helen wrote:
Dear Katherine,
I just want to say, I'm sorry. |
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Thank you, Helen. Please don't give it another thought.
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Katherine
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kjohnson
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Nina, you are definitely not being nosey. I am coming from the Eastern Tradition of the Church which is preserved in the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches.
I've been writing a series of posts on my Eastern blog about the Virgin Mary in the Eastern Tradition. You can read them in the archives under the category The Theotokos.
I hope this is helpful. Let me know if you have any questions. And I'll let someone who holds the consecration dear to their heart answer your question about the thoughts of your relatives.
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Katherine
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cathhomeschool wrote:
| Helen and Alice are very loving people, and I can't imagine either of them brushing anyone off or disregarding their ideas. They have both been very kind to me in my questioning and my baby steps. |
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Thank you so much, Janette, and you are right--we welcome everyone most heartily!
When Hidden Treasure was first conceived it was meant to be about growing *together* in faith and friendship through devotion and love for Mary--a Marian Friendship board. This sounded like a beautiful idea, and yet it was one that was difficult to pin down. How to begin? How do we start to form a bond of friendship as daughters and lovers of Mary?
As Helen and I discussed our vision for the board over the phone, it occurred to us that 4Real "worked" because, although we are all very different in our approach to education, we share the common experience of a single book--Real Learning by Elizabeth Foss. Most of us have read this book or are interested in the lifestyle set forth within its pages. This gives us a starting off point for so many other things--the hundreds upon hundreds of threads and ideas here at 4Real.
We decided that it might make sense to begin this new forum with the common ground of a book (not a mandatory read, but an optional one). In a search for a jumping off point, I suggested True Devotion to Mary because it is a readily available and revered work of Marian Devotion, and Pope John Paul II took his motto "Totus Tuus" from the writings of St. Louis de Montfort. (Helen kindly went along with me on the selection--I mention this to show it was not meant as something limiting.) When we accidentally began the book study on--of all things--the birthday of St. Louis de Montfort, I thought it was a beautiful thing, almost like a little blessing from heaven. Still, the book study was never meant to restrict avenues of devotion to St. Louis de Montfort's work alone.
So, I guess what I am saying is that everyone should feel welcome and loved here, just as if Our Lady were inviting us to her home in Nazareth. As Helen wrote in the opening "Hidden Treasure" thread, "we should bring the practices we have begun in our own lives and share them with each other." I can only imagine how much beauty and love we can bring to Our Lady's table!
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cathhomeschool
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alicegunther wrote:
| So, I guess what I am saying is that everyone should feel welcome and loved here, just as if Our Lady were inviting us to her home in Nazareth. As Helen wrote in the opening "Hidden Treasure" thread, "we should bring the practices we have begun in our own lives and share them with each other." I can only imagine how much beauty and love we can bring to Our Lady's table! |
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Thank you, Alice (and Helen)! 
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Helen wrote:
| I look forward to learning more about the ancient traditions in the Church with more of your posts to this thread or any new ones you would like to begin. |
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I agree! I cannot help but to think of Pope John Paul's words, "East and West are the two lungs by which the Church breathes." Aren't they glorious words? They have helped me greatly in understanding the fullness of the church and also it's beautiful diversities within the the one body.
Katherine, I have visited your Orientale Lumen and this caught my eye and heart, "The Theotokos is venerated in the East as the Holy of Holies and the Ark of the New Covenant. " The Ark of the New Covenant - whilst it is in our litany to Our Lady, I never really thought about it all (?? don't know why) I did not really find out more about it's meaning until reading some of Scott Hahn's work recently.
Katherine, how greatly revered is Mary by this title in the Byzantine rite? Is it like calling Mary, 'Mother of Perpetual Help' or referring to her in that manner?
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aussieannie
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Katherine, I just gone back over some of the postings on page 1 and somehow I missed your posting after mine, I do hope I didn't get 'things rolling' with the discussion of free will.
In fact now that I am reading your posting, I agree that the two verses probably have very little in common and you have explained yourself well - thank you.
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I'd like to say that the discussion so far, is making ME want to understand more deeply what I do believe in. (like peeling of layers) This whole board is fruitful, fruitful! To discuss it together, no matter what our convictions is great, because everyone is giving things great thought.
The slave is issue has certainly got me thinking.....and that has got to be good! I found this at Catholic Culture:
Catholic Culture wrote:
| As the Fathers never tired of retelling, Eve had ruined us by disobedience. Now, at the beginning of the restoration, all is obedience. Mary looked to the depths of her soul. She, the blessed among women, the one full of grace, the only one conceived immaculate, the Mother of God-what is her reaction? "Behold the handmaid of the Lord!" The word handmaid is but a poor translation of the original Greek word doule. For to us the word handmaid means merely a hired servant. But doule meant a slave girl. Here is an obedient humility to balance the proud disobedience of Eve. Mary had just been raised to the peak of all creation, yet she replies by calling herself a slave girl: "Be it done to me according to thy word." Heaven itself waited in obedience for this obedience. For, as St. Thomas Aquinas tells us, "At the Annunciation, the Virgin was asked to give her consent in the name of the whole human race." The world had been created by the fiat of the Word of God. Now the beginning of the recreation in grace is ushered in by the fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum of the one who calls herself the slave of the Lord. |
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This is interesting, I've only just found it and my thoughts are swirling but I would like feedback and thoughts from others - to me it is a real eye-opener! - since True Devotion is about imitating Mary, could THIS be the original referral for the idea of spiritual slaves? (on the re-reading of the True Devotion, I am still only in chapter 1 and not sure if it is mentioned at any stage.)
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kjohnson
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aussieannie wrote:
Katherine, how greatly revered is Mary by this title in the Byzantine rite? Is it like calling Mary, 'Mother of Perpetual Help' or referring to her in that manner?
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Many of the titles used in the RC Litany come from the eastern Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, composed by St. Romanos the Melodist in the 6th century. Eastern Christians pray the Akathist in both private devotion and as a service, particularly during Great Lent.
The title and Icon of "Our Lady of Perpetual Help" is also rooted in the East. It comes from the Icon of Theotokos-Formidable Protection.
The tradition surrounding our love for the Mother of God is preserved in the East in her iconography, hymnology and the many services. The Divine Liturgy praises her at least 6 times and the East spends 2 weeks preparing for the Dormition (Assumption) by fasting and praying in church the Paraklesis service, which is the root of much of this symbolic language describing the truth of the role of the Theotokos in salvation history.
Her Icon is also written behind every altar in the apse of eastern churches. It is the Icon of the Platytera, or "she whose womb contained He whom the universe could not contain." That is very much like the idea of the foreshadowing of the Ark of the Covenant.
This response is very scattered. Sorry. There is just so much that I can't touch on all of it.
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Katherine
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kjohnson
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aussieannie wrote:
Katherine, I just gone back over some of the postings on page 1 and somehow I missed your posting after mine, I do hope I didn't get 'things rolling' with the discussion of free will.
In fact now that I am reading your posting, I agree that the two verses probably have very little in common and you have explained yourself well - thank you. |
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Don't worry about it. There is no problem, but thank you.
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Katherine
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kjohnson
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aussieannie wrote:
The slave is issue has certainly got me thinking.....and that has got to be good! I found this at Catholic Culture:
Catholic Culture wrote:
| As the Fathers never tired of retelling, Eve had ruined us by disobedience. Now, at the beginning of the restoration, all is obedience. Mary looked to the depths of her soul. She, the blessed among women, the one full of grace, the only one conceived immaculate, the Mother of God-what is her reaction? "Behold the handmaid of the Lord!" The word handmaid is but a poor translation of the original Greek word doule. For to us the word handmaid means merely a hired servant. But doule meant a slave girl. Here is an obedient humility to balance the proud disobedience of Eve. Mary had just been raised to the peak of all creation, yet she replies by calling herself a slave girl: "Be it done to me according to thy word." Heaven itself waited in obedience for this obedience. For, as St. Thomas Aquinas tells us, "At the Annunciation, the Virgin was asked to give her consent in the name of the whole human race." The world had been created by the fiat of the Word of God. Now the beginning of the recreation in grace is ushered in by the fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum of the one who calls herself the slave of the Lord. |
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This is interesting, I've only just found it and my thoughts are swirling but I would like feedback and thoughts from others - to me it is a real eye-opener! - since True Devotion is about imitating Mary, could THIS be the original referral for the idea of spiritual slaves? (on the re-reading of the True Devotion, I am still only in chapter 1 and not sure if it is mentioned at any stage.)
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It's interesting that you bring this up because this has been on my mind. Last Sunday, in the Eastern churches was the pre-Lenten Sunday of the Prodigal Son. In the parable Jesus describes the return of the prodigal and tells us that he asked his father if he could come back as merely a "doule" or hired servant. The Father ignored his request and ordered that he be brought a robe, shoes and ring. The shoes in particular are a symbol of freedom and the ring a symbol of sonship.
Then if you think of the Mother of God and her response to the Archangel Gabriel, "behold the handmaiden or hired servant" the Lord responds by crowning her in the same way. She is now the Queen of Heaven, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, the Daughter of the King and the Mother of the Son.
I think the use of "doule" points to the humility necessary to approach God, yet God never responds by accepting us as hired servants, He makes us His sons and daughters and sharers in the Kingdom.
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Katherine
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alicegunther
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kjohnson wrote:
It's interesting that you bring this up because this has been on my mind. Last Sunday, in the Eastern churches was the pre-Lenten Sunday of the Prodigal Son. In the parable Jesus describes the return of the prodigal and tells us that he asked his father if he could come back as merely a "doule" or hired servant. The Father ignored his request and ordered that he be brought a robe, shoes and ring. The shoes in particular are a symbol of freedom and the ring a symbol of sonship.
Then if you think of the Mother of God and her response to the Archangel Gabriel, "behold the handmaiden or hired servant" the Lord responds by crowning her in the same way. She is now the Queen of Heaven, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, the Daughter of the King and the Mother of the Son.
I think the use of "doule" points to the humility necessary to approach God, yet God never responds by accepting us as hired servants, He makes us His sons and daughters and sharers in the Kingdom. |
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Annie and Katherine, I love this. You are both helping me to understand on a whole new level, and for this I am grateful--very, very grateful.
Katherine, I think your last words about our approach and God's response are just beautiful and may begin to give me new insight into what this is all about.
We are already discussing the book here, and I do think a discussion will be so helpful and allow us to delve deeply into things that are difficult to understand. This is exactly the kind of sharing and conversation I pray will unfold on the True Devotion book discussion thread.
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Love, Alice
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JennGM
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aussieannie wrote:
Katherine, how greatly revered is Mary by this title in the Byzantine rite? Is it like calling Mary, 'Mother of Perpetual Help' or referring to her in that manner?
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I'm taggging along on Anne's question. Katherine, in your posts you don't say "Mary" but "Theotokos" and this has always confused me. Is it more than just calling Mary by a devotion, like "Our Lady of Perpetual Help" but a reverential, official title, like "Lord"? I'm trying to come up with an example in Western Rite and am falling short.
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kjohnson
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Jenn, the title Theotokos is the only title given to Mary in an Ecumenical Council. It was bestowed on Mary to fight the heresy of Nestorius who taught that Mary was only the mother of Christ (Christotokos) and not the Mother of His Divinity. This preserved the doctrine of the hypostatic union (that Jesus' human and divine natures are inseparable).
So an Eastern Christian most often would call her the Theotokos because it is a matter of doctrine defined by the Church and protects the true teaching of Christ. Very rarely do you hear an Eastern Christian call her simply Mary.
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Katherine
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kjohnson wrote:
Jenn, the title Theotokos is the only title given to Mary in an Ecumenical Council. It was bestowed on Mary to fight the heresy of Nestorius who taught that Mary was only the mother of Christ (Christotokos) and not the Mother of His Divinity. This preserved the doctrine of the hypostatic union (that Jesus' human and divine natures are inseparable).
So an Eastern Christian most often would call her the Theotokos because it is a matter of doctrine defined by the Church and protects the true teaching of Christ. Very rarely do you hear an Eastern Christian call her simply Mary. |
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It is quite beautiful. "Mary" just doesn't fill up the reverence for her role as Mother of God. Is the name "Mary" used in naming children, or is it reserved? Just curious.
We use Mary so often, but it's a form of flattery and devotion to use her name. And the difference of customs, I still find it uncomfortable when some ethnicities use the name "Jesus" for any child. I'm not used to it. But perhaps other people find it uncomfortable to use the name of Mary.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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4Real Forums : Hidden Treasure
Topic: Many questions (
Topic Closed)
