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Willa
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| Posted: May 21 2005 at 9:54am | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
| I read a booklet called Ignatian Education in the Home(from Kolbe) and it really seemed to pull together various things that had impressed me - Montessori, Charlotte Mason, Dorothy Sayers, real books and not twaddle and a classical education. |
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Dear Janet,
Me too!! That booklet really gave me a perspective on education I hadn't had before. I use it as a foundation for tying in everything else just as you mention -- even my unschooling ventures fit under the umbrella of "self-activity" and "acquiring a taste for things of the mind". But most of all, that the goal of education is to form a Catholic "with the consent of all his faculties" -- mind, heart, spirit. Those words rang with me during a time when I was very confused about the goal of my homeschool and they stay with me as an overarching principle.
You brought out the role of the teacher and I do agree with your points and think that this is something that should be considered in a homeschool parent-child relationship just as we consider both mom and baby in a nursing relationship. When one of my kids is having a hard time in some area of life or study, I try to look at myself first -- as you say "Then I have to ask myself the same questions I ask myself about the children. Am I being lazy, have I spent time on less important things when God had this for me to do - or have I really done the best I could? Is this realistic for me considering my other duties, my fading vision or whatever? Am I expecting too much of myself? Is there another way to meet needs if I am truely incapable? "
Homeschooling has been an avenue of rich learning to me, and that's another point that is brought out in Ignatian education -- that the teacher himself should be improving throughout the years, periodically re-evaluating how he is doing things and reefreshing his own learning; and also that every teaching situation will be unique and new because it is a relationship between those particular student(s) and the teacher, who grows and changes over time.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Willa
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| Posted: May 21 2005 at 10:13am | IP Logged
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juliecinci wrote:
When I think of education as a well-rounded exposure to the many disciplines in a liberal arts education (math, science, literature, philosophy, history etc.), I find myself drawn to Charlotte Mason or even classical methods that use some kind of systematic approach to engagement with these areas.
But when I think of education as the ownership of material that I study because I must, because I am driven to, then I see it as a lifelong process of learning how to acquire what I want to know, need to know.
Julie |
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Julie,
You were not too pithy. That was beautiful and lucid.
Those are the two things I steer between too and I do get confused about which one trumps the other in a particular situation.
The second one is foundational because as we were saying earlier in the thread, the child's heart, mind and will is the gateway -- even Our Savior did not reach everyone -- some turned away. But the ones that did come to Him came because they made that free choice.
But in another way, the first one seems crucial because I want my kids to understand that "wisdom" is bigger than any of us are -- that the response should be humility and awe and a deep spirit of inquiry and attentiveness, not simply a kind of intellectual acquisitiveness.
And also, the second seems important in defining MY role as teacher/mentor/mom etc because I CAN'T assume or coerce my child's consent to learn. I can only invite, encourage, foster and guide -- as Jesus did. In other words, I have to stand back from my child and not try to "own" his strengths and weaknesses.
But the first is important in that it is what I CAN impart - as you mentioned, I am a gateway in a sense too-- because so much of a child's early relationship with the world is filtered through that of his family and particularly his mother. "The mother's heart is the child's schoolroom."
When I get perplexed about WHAT to do in a particular situation, it helps me to remember what you said:
"What I don't want to do is to assume they must get this rich "education" all while under my tutelage. It may just be that they don't develop a true interest in or appreciation for literature or art until they hit their thirties... like me. It still counts!"
Then I think: WHAT, in this situation, will help me equip my child for his future life as a learner? for the continual pursuit of excellence in his life?
I don't want him to reflexively turn away from a subject or skill because I pushed it so hard against his will, nor do I want him never to engage with a branch of learning because I never imparted to him the skills or desire to do so.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: May 24 2005 at 9:41am | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| I don't want to be disappointed if my children are average. I don't want to limit them to averageness, but I don't believe everyone on this earth is gifted with intellectual brilliance. And I don't believe that a certain educational method will take a child who is not gifted with intellectual brilliance and make them into one who is. So is it acceptable for a parent to be OK with a child who is not an intellectual superstar. Is it neglect to accept less than extraordinary performance? If our children are not performing to the standards of the most rigorous education are we failing them? Or are we just realistically recognizing that just like everywhere else the homeschooling community will be home to children with varying intellectual potential? |
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A lot of the answers to my questions are coming from unexpected places lately. I finally got my copy of Homeschooling with Gentleness and found in there an answer that makes so much sense to my question from above. It's a quote from St. Therese in Story of a Soul. I'm going to type it below for anyone who hasn't read it or who just hasn't thought about it in connection with anxiety about "producing" an excellently educated child.
"Jesus deigned to teach me this mystery. He set before me the book of nature; I understood how all the flowers He has created are beautiful, how the splendor of the rose and the whiteness of the Lily do not take away the perfume of the little violet or the delightful simplicity of the daisy. I understood that if all flowers wanted to be roses, nature would lose her springtime beauty, and the fields would no longer be decked out with little wild flowers.
And so it is in the world of souls, Jesus' garden. He willed to create great souls comparable to Lilies and roses, but He has created smaller ones and these must be content to be daisies or violets destined to give joy to God's glances when He looks down at His feet. Perfection consists in doing His will, in being what He wills us to be.
I understood, too, that Our Lord's love is revealed as perfectly in the most simple soul who resists His grace in nothing as in the most excellent soul; in fact, since the nature of love is to humble oneself, if all souls resembled those of the holy Doctors who illumined the Church with the clarity of their teachings, it seems God would not descend so low when coming to their heart. But He created the child who knows only how to make his feeble cry heard; He has created the poor savage who has nothing but the natural law to guide him. It is to their hearts that God deigns to lower Himself. These are the wild flowers whose simplicity attracts Him. When coming down in this way, God manifests His infinite grandeur. Just as the sun shines simultaneously on the tall cedars and on each little flower as though it were alone on the earth, so Our Lord is occupied particularly with each soul as though there were no others like it. And just as in nature all the seasons are arranged in such a way as to make the humblest daisy bloom on a set day, in the same way, everything works out for the good of each soul."
A few particular things struck me from this quote.
1. "Perfection consists in doing His will, in being what He wills us to be."
2. "Our Lord's love is revealed as perfectly in the most simple soul who resists His grace in nothing as in the most excellent soul"
3. "And just as in nature all the seasons are arranged in such a way as to make the humblest daisy bloom on a set day, in the same way, everything works out for the good of each soul."
It seems to me there is a clue in this about the Truth of an excellent education. Perhaps the most important thing we can teach our children is to resist His grace in nothing. No matter how society judges the results of the education we provide our children, if we've taught them this, then we've given them the tools to grow in exactly the way God desires.
So then the question is how do we teach them to resist God's grace in nothing? 
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Willa
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Richelle,
Your quote was timely. I woke up thinking about this thread and some of my children. One child would fit somewhere along the climb to Parnassus that Simmons describes as the road to excellence. This child loves languages and math and does well at both.
Another child in my family does not fit along the continuum. He struggles with both languages and math. However, just dismissing him as second-rate would do disservice to his very real excellencies. He has gifts which are simply not well represented by traditional "classical" standards.
I am praying that my sympathy for my children echoes God's eye for His "flowers" -- that I will be partial to them as if education were created just for that child alone, but that it will be the partiality of the sun when it nourishes and illuminates that particular flower and makes it grow and develop and display its unique beauty.
I've ordered Homeschooling with Gentleness too for my "summer Catholic homeschool conference" -- since I haven't yet made it to a REAL conference, I always budget a bit of money for inspiring books!
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: May 24 2005 at 10:27am | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
| I've ordered Homeschooling with Gentleness too for my "summer Catholic homeschool conference" -- since I haven't yet made it to a REAL conference, I always budget a bit of money for inspiring books! |
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Dear Willa,
I have found this book to be a spiritual retreat as well as an educational conference. Suzie Andres really ministered to me. Let's open a thread on the unschooling board to discuss the book.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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ALmom
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Richelle,
Thank you so much for your post. It was just what we needed - a reminder of the big picture. St. Therese is very special to our family and we have read that many times but needed a reminder.
We have struggled in the last couple of years with our homeschooling. Our oldest and I have felt so much stress and we felt like we were losing our way and have been reassessing our homeschooling trying to get back on the path of our initial vision. I think, sommetimes it is easy to get drawn in by the world without even realizing it. We have been without much support for most of our 17 years of homeschooling (11 years with school age children) and over time, I think I felt the pressure of proving that homeschooling was OK. The world judges us based on standards that aren't always true - our children have to be perfect (absolutely well behaved in all settings, most knowledgeable in their faith, getting top notch standardized test scores, and we always had to be confident and joyous in our school choice and mom had to be an upbeat, enthusiastic teacher with loads of energy or we were told we were ruining our children and smothering them, etc.) But the reality is that we are normal families trying our best to follow God's call as we see it. Each of our children is a precious flower of God with their own unique gifts and callings. We need time to ponder God's call and if that means lightening the load for some of our children, and doing less academically, that is OK.
My husband and I had just discussed that need to step back and really remember what was most important - God, prayer time, and also the need to balance work with some time to recreate and let the rest fall where it may. So this was like a confirmation of where we had begun to redirect our school. We will have to trust God to open and close doors for our children according to his will. It is so hard with a high schooler, not to dance through all the world's hoops, even when what you really need may be different.
It is such a grace to be able to "chat" with others trying to follow the same path who are not afraid to say it is sometimes difficult. Again, thank you. Really thanks to all for this board, for the thoughtful discussions on what education and learning is all about and for allowing me to be a part.
Janet
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Willa
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| Posted: May 24 2005 at 5:19pm | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
My husband and I had just discussed that need to step back and really remember what was most important - God, prayer time, and also the need to balance work with some time to recreate and let the rest fall where it may. So this was like a confirmation of where we had begun to redirect our school. We will have to trust God to open and close doors for our children according to his will. It is so hard with a high schooler, not to dance through all the world's hoops, even when what you really need may be different. |
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I think one thing that makes it difficult for us homeschoolers in deciding how to educate our children "excellently" -- and surely we all want to do that in the sense that we want them to be the people God intends them to be -- is that (1) as you say, the world has its own ideas about what constitutes an "educational product" and (2) there are so many choices, and choice inevitably involves limitation. If I set down the classical education path with my children, immediately my road seems to diverge from those who are on the unschooling road, and vice versa. Or if I set down the homeschooling path, my path is different than those on the building school journey. We will occasionally glance over at those on the "other" path and worry a bit beccause our kids may be showing different "excellencies" and we are not sure if we're chasing a moonbeam into a swamp, or not.
So there's a tendency to put up some barriers in order to distinguish ourselves and compare ourselves favorably with others. A tendency which is admirably resisted on this board, which is the reason I like being here!
But I do think by avoiding defensiveness and cheap comparisons, we end up dealing with a bit of anxiety about our choices. It probably makes us more reflective, but it also can paralyze us (or at least it does sometimes me).
What I was REALLY going to say before I started wandering on the path (!) was: HOW do we know what's the best path for a given child or given family? Or do we not really know? When I give up the idea that one particular system of education is "best", then I find myself in an world of limitless possibilities for error, or so it sometimes seems. "Following God's way for our child" seems so noble, but with no specific guidelines it looks to me like an open door for relativism, wandering, trial and error, which to me produces anxiety and discouragement. Perhaps Andries deals with this in her book and actually, that's one of the reasons I ordered it -- I'd like a philosophical Catholic view of what unschooling looks like.
Right now I tend to make choices based on my over-riding commitment to Catholic educational thinking as it has been expressed through history, which brings me to a human-centered, individualized form of classical education directed to forming virtue and devotion. But I do like to hear how others think about these things and so it's a real benefit to be able to discuss these things with such a spectrum of homeschoolers who are commited to what's best for their child.
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Willa
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mom3aut1not
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My thoughts on an excellent education have changed over the years. I also think that there is a difference between an excellent education which we are bound to offer our children and being excellently educated which is ultimately the responsibility of our children. That is, we are bound to offer an excellent education to our children and to help them educate themselves. In the beginning most of the responsibility is ours. As they mature, they are more and more responsible for working hard and educating themselves. In the end the responsibility is all theirs.
Although nothing and no one are perfect this side of Heaven, obviously some educational methods are superior to others. Less obviously, is there a certain body of knowledge that everyone who is mentally capable should know? I say this is less obvious because in my experience unschoolers generally don't believe this. Public school teachers rarely do. I didn't when I started hsing. I do now. Given a body of knowledge we want our children to have and goals we wish them to attain, both academic and nonacademic, what is the best way to achieve these things?
The CM method is an excellent way -- and relatively painless - for our children to gain that knowledge and achieve those goals. It is also a way for us to give them a truly Catholic education. (I have wondered if she would have converted if she were alive today.) I don't just mean an education that is Catholic in content, but that helps our children develop both habits and relationships with God, other people, and with the Church, and to gain an education worthy of a child of God. Are there other ways to achieve this? Surely. Better ways? I don't think so.
Another thing to consider is that we have to consider what our long-term goals are. I know I am often intimidated by other people when it comes to hsing. I also know that hsers in general feel they have to show the skeptics around them how well their children are doing so their choice to homeschool is validated. Unfortunately that would mean (unless the children of a given family all excel in all things) that we are letting the school system determine our goals and content; most homeschoolers are trying to avoid this in the first place. Of course it doens't hurt if your children do excel -- but not all children can. I firmly believe a basic education above the standards of the school system is attainable by all children who are not mentally handicapped or otherwise severely disabled, but it is clear that not all chldren can achieve the same degree of academic excelllence. As for comparing the differing educations given by us and by a school, comparisons cannot be made until a chlid is older --possibly even in high school -- in my opinion. This is true because we do not have the same short-term, intermediate-term, or long-term goals. A child who is used to doing oral narrations may in the short term be at a disadvantage compared to a child who has been forced to write "What I Did Last Summer" every year for the last five years. In the long term, the child who is used to oral narrations will have the advantage -- even from a secular perspective.
Moreover, not all children will choose to do the best they can. Even if we train their wills and educate them in the best way possbile with optimal materials, some will use their free wills and resist. They will choose to learn only what they wish to. My oldest dd is an example. Despite having a grandfather with a PhD in math, a grandmother who did graduate level work in math at MIT, a mother who was in a PhD program in math, a father with a PhD in math, and some ability herself in math, she has resisted learning math for years. I tried all sorts of things -- everything from Saxon to innovative materials not typically found in schools, but she didn't want to learn it. What she did cover, she did not retain because she didn't want to. She is an adult now, and it is not my responsibility. I dragged the horse to water, but she wouldn't drink. Is she excellently educated? No. She has an excellent education in some areas, but not in others. She didn't want it. I am not trying to be depressing; however, it is necessary to know both what we can do and what we should do. We do not control their wills; they do.
Unfortunately, magic wands are in short supply. Believe me -- if I had one, I'd use it. Actually, I take that back. I wouldn't. God gave us the gift of being able to choose -- to participate in our own salvation. I wouldn't take that from my children even it is tempting at times......
In Christ,
Deborah
who wishes all her children loved to learn
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tovlo4801
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WJFR wrote:
We will occasionally glance over at those on the "other" path and worry a bit beccause our kids may be showing different "excellencies" and we are not sure if we're chasing a moonbeam into a swamp, or not.
HOW do we know what's the best path for a given child or given family? Or do we not really know? When I give up the idea that one particular system of education is "best", then I find myself in an world of limitless possibilities for error, or so it sometimes seems. "Following God's way for our child" seems so noble, but with no specific guidelines it looks to me like an open door for relativism, wandering, trial and error, which to me produces anxiety and discouragement. |
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Wow Willa! I was just thinking along these lines this morning. I almost posted my thoughts (OK maybe more like questions) along these lines, but eventually decided to let it go because I just didn't know how to voice them. I'm going to try to share where my thoughts led me this morning. I apologize in advance for the lengthy, meandering post. I hope you can make sense of it.
I am so attracted to a certain vision of education, but I have doubts - running somewhere along the lines of your chasing moonbeams in a swamp description.  .
I'm so afraid of choosing to educate my child in a way that unintentionally goes against Church teaching. When we find our own path in the void of definitive Church teaching are we really just giving in to the temptations of our fallen nature? Yet I want to submit to authoritative teaching. Truth when fully understood always comes to feel right. But how can we submit when He has not definitively laid down the path for us?
I struggle because I thrive on clear answers and I don't see the Church giving us clarity on this issue for now. I admit that I have not done an exhaustive examination of Church teaching, but what I am aware of leads me to believe this is a pretty gray area. There is documentation that seems to lean toward or against certain methods, but it is certainly not the kind of answer that would make me feel the solidness of Truth in my choice or turn me in obedience from a heartfelt choice.
We've all made our choice to homeschool in a darkness of authoritative teaching to support that decision. The decision of a particular method with which to homeschool our children just leads to more darkness. Yet God has let us experience this darkness in our choice right now for some reason that for the moment is beyond our grasp.
This morning I was thinking about my wanting a definitive directive about what is acceptable Catholic educational methods. I just came back to the fact that the Church has not given us that definitive answer yet. Homeschooling itself is a gray area. So what if we're all wrong? What if we've all made a tragic error of judgement and put ourselves and our families eternal happiness at risk? Then I thought about gray areas of the past. My understanding is that many people in the past have found themselves sorting their way through undefined gray areas of the Church in their time. They went in many different directions and most of them probably believed deeply that they had the right answer. Some of them were wrong and some of them were brilliantly right. Were those who honestly believed they were doing the right thing, but ultimately were wrong, damned? I've got to believe in God's mercy. He has not given us any definitive answers about the Truth of education (at least not that I've figured out yet). That leaves us in that gray area. Each of us has to do our best to discern the right answer. I still honestly think the Truth about education is not relative or subjective, but somehow in it's objective Truth answers all the questions we're struggling with. I'm just incapable of uncovering this definitive Truth myself. I'm lacking in the wisdom and grace necessary. I do know that deep down I don't believe people who educate their children lovingly with Seton or CM are on the wrong path any more than I believe those who educate their children lovingly by an unschooling or classical method are. And I believe in God's mercy. I believe that if we are sincerely searching for the right answers and somehow end up on the wrong path His mercy will cover our errors. Does that make any theological sense?
I'm desperately trying to make sense of this all and it doesn't seem fair that God would leave us without definitive guidance and then judge us guilty if we in our ignorance head in the wrong direction. I've been praying about the education of my children and my heart just aches with longing to let them explore the world with love. I cringe at what seems like caging their gifts in a world of hoops to jump through. I began homeschooling with a desire to give my child a certain kind of education. I think in some degrees it's different from what person X here desires to provide for their kids. And I think what person X desires to provide for their kids is different from what person Y desires to provide. I truthfully believe that those different goals demand different paths.
Romans 12:4-8 "For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us exercise them: if prophecy, in proportion to the faith; if ministry, in ministering; if one is a teacher, in teaching; if one exhorts, in exhortation; if one contributes, in generosity; if one is over others, with diligence; if one does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
Wouldn't different gifts allow for different methods of developing those gifts?
Now that I've stumbled across a path I believe might allow me to properly develop my children's gifts, I would just ache to give it up. Yet in obedience I would. But God has yet to hit me over the head with a clear message that I'm headed in the wrong direction. In fact, despite my nagging anxiety, I feel closer to being on the right path than I ever have.
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ALmom
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Hi,
I am with whoever said there has got to be some objective truth in this education process. I wonder if that has to do more with basic principles and less with exact methodology or even exact content. Perhaps this is why I am attracted to the Ignatian Education in the Home - it seems to speak of basic principals but leaves you free to implement them in ways best suited to your own situation with a few guiding principles that seem to caution against what I have been uncomfortable with in various methodologies.
I find myself uncomfortable with certain aspects of unschooling - not the freedom to pursue interests and follow a trail. I really liked the emphasis on self-directed learning. After all that is what really sticks. But I disliked how it easily degenerated in our home to a certain lethargy and laziness among student and teacher. I would be pulled back on track by Ignatius who reminded me of the need to be disciplined, etc. I am not saying this as a criticism of unschoolers - others may have a lot more internal discipline than we did. I just know how our own "unschooling" faired.
I also know first hand how trying to do everything, being a slave to a textbook and the more traditional approach has resulted in burn-out and a certain dulling of the joy of learning, how it derailed us and instead of striving to do our best, our motive became "hurry up and get done" (this is both student and parent) and we memorized a bunch of silly stuff just to be done with the whole thing and without a whole lot of real learning. We couldn't wait until summer (only we became so bogged down in unreasonable quantities of work that we didn't have a summer for 2 years). Ignatius reminds us to do a few things very well and in the process develop those abilities of reasoning, communicating and deciding. He reminds us of the need for internal motivation and to do all to the best of our abilities for the glory of God. We remember that it is better to select a few things and learn them well than to try to peruse a sweep of history from biblical times to modern times in 1 year. Doing that you end up with a bunch of "facts" you aren't even sure are correct because there isn't evidence to support statements and no time to investigate further.
Then there is the CM approach and I love using real books of quality, but without a plan, our household just didn't end up knowing where we were headed and we ended up with a hodge podge of delightful but disjointed things. Ignatius reminds me of order and direction, having a plan. I needed help formulating end goals and Ignatius summarized major end goals that made sense to me. And I have sometimes needed someone to show me a path to try and implement these goals. It's OK to take someone else's lesson plan and tweak it for yourself. Sometimes, just the security of this freed me to read more worthy books, gave the children time for discovery after covering some of the basic skills in a short and sweet - but more traditional manner.
The classical approach has a number of appealing ideas - real books, digging deeply into the great minds of the past. But I've always been uncomfortable with large doses of Greece and Rome in the early years. Ignatius reminds me of discerning worthy books (and a reminder that someone else has already discerned the worthy books from the past like Greek and Roman literature and gleaned the best and most fitting for Christina readers). The booklet cautioned against the pagan or unchristian world - view found in a lot of modern literature. But underlying that is a principle of selecting worthy books with a point not in contradiction with the Christian message. I feel free to look at the great Catholic minds some of whom Ignatius would not have known as they came after him - like Chesterton and Belloc and Hopkins. I can balance out our years with major works from the classical era with some really great Catholic literature. I am also reminded that as children mature, and begin to discern they certainly benefit from reading Augustine and a great Greek or Roman author and comparing the world views. They certainly benefit from seeing how Catholics took what was good from these - Augustine, Dante, etc.
Our children must be equiped to know, love and serve the Lord. We must form the mind to "think, reason, express and convince" We have to strive to do everything to the best of our abilities as part of our own self-giving to God.
The only thing that scares the dickens out of me is that no matter which approach, the teacher/mentor must have a well-formed and disciplined mind and I don't.
I tend to be insecure, waffle between ideas(can't you tell - we've tried some part of everything), am tempted to try to accomplish the reading of every worthy book, peruse deeply into all areas of history (impossible)and fail to do something because it isn't quite what we had in mind and not drawing in enough enthusiasm(we did this with our poor 1st dd. I never got around to science in the early grades other than nature walks because I just couldn't get her enthused and the textbooks were either deadly dull, full of either secular or protestant agendas and experiments were haphazard because she hated science, I felt inept and we always had a toddler to interrupt. Then we got to hs and she had to have a science course. We got the crazy notion that physics would help her apply Algebra and because we had rejected science books up to that point because they weren't perfect, we decided to stick with it - finally dropping it 3/4 of the way through the year when what should have been obvious to me from the start, became obvious - we wouldn't be able to cope with learning math and physics requiring that math at the same time especially when science principles and vocabulary were foreign to her. Since it was so far into the year, we didn't do science at all, knew we had to do something the following year esp. since her goals require 3 sciences (2 with labs). We settled on whatever would work to get her the credits she needs  I think I'm diverging, but my point is that the frustration is due to my own faults and weaknesses and I hate to see my children suffer while I try to learn all I failed to learn with all my years of formal education. I become stymied if I spend too much time looking at my failures and inadequacies. I see the goals, am striving for them but I do need some sort of guide to handhold me while I learn. I have to accept my own limitations while striving to do better. I may need a history textbook to help me overcome my tendency not to select a focus at least for a while. Someone else may need to avoid textbooks like the plague in order not to succumb to their tendency to become a slave to the book. It is in how we use the materials we have. There have to be certain objective guiding principles, then a lot of prudential judgement in the how to side of things.
In all of this there has to be room for a great deal of diversity depending on the particular areas of strengths and weaknesses of individual students and teachers. I wonder if this is akin to the varieties of prayer, the various paths to holiness. St. Therese's quote reminded me of that - She looked to St. Therese of Avila and knew she didn't have the strength or temperment to do as St. Therese of Avila did. But she discovered her path of the Little Way. There are a multitude of Saints and we all cannot be equally devoted to them all - we find special saints for us. There are myriad forms of prayer. When I first rediscovered my Catholic faith, I had all these various devotionals with a thousand different ways to pray - novenas, rosary, meditation, scripture, way of the cross, various sacramentals, various ejaculations to be prayed throughout the day, contemplative prayer, verbal prayer, a thousand prayers composed by numerous saints, the Mass, blessings for everything from houses to cars, etc, spiritual reading (and we couldn't read it all in a lifetime), even the Benedictine motto of making your work your prayer and so on. There is a rich treasury.
At different times and places, a given individual will favor different ones or combinations of ones. But a Catholic is not free to choose the way of Buddha for instance - so there is a guide, but lots of variety in that one truth. How rich our faith is and based on this, I suspect there is a richness in how to educate as well.
Just some thoughts.
Janet
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julia s.
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Romans 12:4-8 "For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us exercise them: if prophecy, in proportion to the faith; if ministry, in ministering; if one is a teacher, in teaching; if one exhorts, in exhortation; if one contributes, in generosity; if one is over others, with diligence; if one does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
Thanks for this reminder Richelle. I had to back out of the conversation for a few days and take care of needs closer to home, but I've been reading the posts and continue to find hints of the answer. I think that person is made up of more than just one main gift, but many talents. However, like in this quote there seems to be an overiding personality trait that makes a person tick, so to speak. My oldest son is always given to flights of fancy. In his own world and rejects most of the facts around him unless those facts beat him in the head enough (not literally). He makes his life immensely difficult by having to always have proof and sticking to his guns even when they are water pistols. But he is also a very strong child. Stronger then I think I've given him credit for in the past. He brings on his sorrow because he knows he can withstand the burden. So I think it is my responsibility as his mother to not try and lighten it. But to keep giving him the stuff of life to wrestle with. Originally, when I saw how much he struggled I wanted to make it easier for him, but now I see that is not his or God's way for him and I should prepare him for his future by providing a dense curriculum full of God's wisdom. (I guess God did answer my call after all, but I didn't understand His answer). But that is what is right for him. My youngest son is physically strong, but he is easily wounded emotionally. He likes being the sweet and generous one in the family. I think God blessed him with the profound ability to make people smile. And I should take his desire for generosity seriously and not worry if he is or isn't a intellectual powerhouse (of course both children are still young and there is much to learn about him in the coming years).
God does provide all his flowers with what they need, but with free choice we can choose to wither and die or turn from the light or someone can come along and try to rip up out from our roots. In our teaching our children we have to prepare them for the trials in life too. Or we will have given them a beautiful mosaic without the proper grout to hold it together.
I think the church does provide a structure to teach our children. Through the sacrements, the catecism, the habit of mass, the songs and scriptures, the lives of saints. Maybe because it seems so basic we take it for granted, but it's just as powerful as if God handed us the curriculum personally. In a way he did.
There is also the structure of the family and every family rhythmn is different. Some are pulling in every ounce of time and resources that they can find and others stay steady with a few resources. Both are valid as long as your being true to your family rhythmn and notice when that rhythmn might change. Women are acutely aware of ebbs and flows in life. We were taught these things on such an organic level (and will be retaught again and again). So we are the watchers of our family rhythmns. Men have other talents, but I really believe that women have the feel of their family more so than men (although men are fast learners).
The more I think about it I don't think the problem is our children when we go to educate excellently, but with ourselves. We get in the way of our own God-given knowledge of what is best for our children and our family with our doubts. There is one definitive truth, but the truth says look to what God gave you. Work with that and do your best. Look at the truths of the church for those that apply more solidly and firmly, but even so every one of God's flowers will bloom differently.
I have to go. My enthusiastic children need my attention.
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julia
married to love of her life
with ds12 ds8 ds3 and ds1
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Willa
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tovlo4801 wrote:
We've all made our choice to homeschool in a darkness of authoritative teaching to support that decision. The decision of a particular method with which to homeschool our children just leads to more darkness. Yet God has let us experience this darkness in our choice right now for some reason that for the moment is beyond our grasp.
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I know what you mean, Richelle--
I know some people say that there is a darkness of authoritative teaching to support homeschool. I don't quite find their reasoning convincing, however. The fact is that parents HAVE the primary authority to educate their children. They have the responsibility and therefore the power and privilege to see that their kids are properly formed. We get lots of graces through the sacrament of Matrimony to guide our efforts.
The Church's role is to help the parents in that task. The Catholic principle of subsidiarity means basically that larger organizations have the responsibility to do for the smaller organic ones what the smaller ones can't do for themselves.
It is for US, the parents, to decide what we can't do for ourselves. Yes, we are fallible human beings. But the fact is that WE have those specific matrimonial graces to raise OUR kids and no one else, not even a holy priest or a holy Catholic school, has those specific graces. Their role is essentially secondary and cooperative in THIS particular duty/responsibility for raising OUR own kids.
Similarly, no homeschool group or correspondence school or other authority can tell us the ONE right way. They can offer to help and we can accept their offer -- there is nothing at all wrong about that. But we can't just sign our duty over to someone else.
I hope this makes sense and doesn't sound like I am stepping up again on one of the mini-Irish-Spring soapboxes Paddy likes to build towers with around here
I feel very strongly about this and whenever someone is trying to say "this is the ONLY way to homeschool Catholically" and then appeals to something like my fear or anxiety rather than my reason and primary role as educator -- THEN I know that following that guidance will lead me to homeschool servilely, not according to Grace.
I love your choice of the word "darkness" because I am reading St John of the Cross right now and he talks about darkness as a way to come closer to God -- there is a kind of darkness or rather "hiddenness" sometimes in my best moments of homeschool. And there is a "darkness" sometimes in following what we know is best without much support from the world. "Wilderness" is another way I sometimes think of it -- like the Israelites wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, God purifying them through this time, and Our Lord retreating to the desert for 40 days to fast and pray.
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Willa
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Willa
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WJFR wrote:
not even a holy priest or a holy Catholic school, has those specific graces. Their role is essentially secondary and cooperative in THIS particular duty/responsibility for raising OUR own kids.
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Now please be aware I'm not talking here about my children as "children of God" and my brothers and sisters in the Church. In that respect they and I owe obedience to our parish priest and beyond that to our Bishop and beyond that to the Church Universal. We parents are definitely not little gods or popes in our own family. We can't bestow the sacraments on our children; we can't make laws that contradict Church laws.
But our PARTICULAR educational/formational duty as expressed in the Catechism is ours alone.... to be delegated as we need to (and we all use books, classes, outside teachers to support us to some extent or another -- varying from situation to situation...)
CCC doctrine-- Role of Parents
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Willa
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mom3aut1not
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Willa,
You are so right! Homeschooling is a particular way for us to fulfill our duties as parents in the education of our children. Even if our children go to a great school, it is still *our* responsibility to oversee their education. No curriculum vnedor, no tutor, and no author of a best-selling book has the responsibility; we do.
A mom I know with 17 kids had the older kids in parochial school, then in a private Catholic school, and later decided to homeschool. Each option was and is work -- lots of work if you are a conscientious parent. When they were in school, she had to make sure the school was not doing anything bad (and I can tell you stores I have heard) and also that her children were doing their work. The private school had problems and needed lots of assistance. Homeschooling such a large family is really hard.
Raising children is work. Educating them is part of that work.
Anyway, I was happy to read your posts.
In Christ,
Deborah
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ALmom
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The Church's role is to help the parents in that task. The Catholic principle of subsidiarity means basically that larger organizations have the responsibility to do for the smaller organic ones what the smaller ones can't do for themselves.
It is for US, the parents, to decide what we can't do for ourselves. Yes, we are fallible human beings. But the fact is that WE have those specific matrimonial graces to raise OUR kids and no one else, not even a holy priest or a holy Catholic school, has those specific graces. Their role is essentially secondary and cooperative in THIS particular duty/responsibility for raising OUR own kids.
Similarly, no homeschool group or correspondence school or other authority can tell us the ONE right way. They can offer to help and we can accept their offer -- there is nothing at all wrong about that. But we can't just sign our duty over to someone else.
I hope this makes sense and doesn't sound like I am stepping up again on one of the mini-Irish-Spring soapboxes Paddy likes to build towers with around here
I feel very strongly about this and whenever someone is trying to say "this is the ONLY way to homeschool Catholically" and then appeals to something like my fear or anxiety rather than my reason and primary role as educator -- THEN I know that following that guidance will lead me to homeschool servilely, not according to Grace.
I love your "soapbox" which isn't a soapbox at all but a passionately expressed truth (imo) that I've finally realized after a few years of going nuts. We started out so differently and got de-railed by what you speak of .
I went wrong when I just got worn out and forgot to own whatever we used. Hopefully we are finding our way back. It took us a while to know what support we really needed - lesson plans - but the freedom to use them any old way we wanted, diverge if needed and chunk them as well and not feel like we had to do everything. I needed support in looking over papers - but not someone who was going to control the grading or the comments or even be afraid to talk too much about the book for fear they might give away the "answer" on what the theme was. I needed someone to talk to about what I saw as strengths and weaknesses - and if things seemed too heavy, a good ear and a few suggestions about how to taylor something. Someone who would hold my hand a little and remind me to ask what it was we really were wanting out of this exercise, was it achieving that goal or had it become a silly piece of busy work for us. What a blessing this message board has been!!! I love all the passionately expressed ideas - and hope when I get overly passionate about something it is understood in the context of our struggles to find a way for our family. I was just telling my dh that this kind of thing is the one thing I really miss since homeschooling - discussing ideas, great books, thinking out-loud. I am looking back on some of the book suggestions and hope to be able to purchase one or two. Thanks for being willing to let a stranger join your discussion!
I often tend to try to do everything - and thus accomplish nothing except to overtax us all. During the end of the year reflection of how things had been going and amidst many, many tears, we realized that we had become servile to programs, to the world's expectations and even sometimes to the schooling methodolgoy that worked so well for homeschoolers we admired (but became disasterous in our household). I think sometimes it was trying to find a way to really learn with all the realities of lots of little ones, 4 with vision problems, etc. Stepping back, we realized that the most important thing for us to do was PRAY and that was sometimes getting pushed into certain routine corners.
Now we are re -owning whatever hodge podge we end up with - but it has to be something that really helps our children learn on all levels and get to heaven. We want our priorities right side up again. We will do less, but do it well. And if nothing else, we must guarantee that there are quiet moments of prayer for all of us.
I'm not sure if I quoted correctly but you guys will recognize the first part as a quote -right!
Thanks,
Janet
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Willa
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mom3aut1not wrote:
A mom I know with 17 kids had the older kids in parochial school, then in a private Catholic school, and later decided to homeschool. Each option was and is work -- lots of work if you are a conscientious parent. Raising children is work. Educating them is part of that work.
Anyway, I was happy to read your posts.
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I was happy to read yours, Deborah. My kids were in parochial school for several years and it WAS a lot of work. Raising kids conscientiously is a lot of work.
I have thought a lot about what you said in your other post about taking the long view, and not seeing the results until later in life or sometimes, possibly, not at all. I've started several posts on that topic, basically to the effect that according to Cardinal Newman and others, "taking the long view" is the very essence of education and what all should be ultimately directed towards. I can't seem to say it better than that right now, but anyway, I do think it's one thing that makes even a trial and error homeschool "work" in comparison with the most efficient building school.
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Willa
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mom3aut1not
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Willa,
The mother of my friend (herself with 16 kids) gave me several pearls of wisdom. Among them are
When you are getting up in the night with an infant, turn the clock to the wall. You won't get more sleep, but you won't get angry about "the baby kept me up from 3:30am to 5:25 am!" (My oldest chld had severe colic and barely slept at all.)
As long as a child is potty-trained in time for kindergarten (later amended for homeschooling families to "for college"), you're all right.
Even a "good kid" will try something once.
And most importantly,
Raising children is a long-term process. It takes years, not weeks or months. For example, training children to be helpful or neat or whatever will take a long time. Don't discouraged if they act immaturely or don't seem to learn from a lesson or two or three.....
I am glad you liked my post. I was afraid some people might find it discouraging, but most of the people I know with older kids struggle with the issue of responsibility. (I know that I thought I knew exactly how to raise chidren so they would be perfect when my kids were small. I would do X, Y, and Z, and my children would be erudite saints. Ok, I was an idiot).)
I do think it is important to keep our finitude in mind; if our kids are good, they have chosen the Christ. It is to *their* credit more than ours. It is only to our credit only to the extent that we did what we could to raise our children in Christ. Acknowledging that there is only so much we can do and that persons with free will will sometimes choose wrongly -- both in education and elsewhere -- is necessary for us as parents of grown and almost children to accept. I am grieved by some of my oldest daughter's opinions and speech, but she is not an android, and I can't program her nor should I try. I should try to treat her as God treats us all. God gave us the choice to love freely or not and invites us always. I need to keep this in mind.
I am happy that she goes to confession and Mass and does pray. I can see that some of our formation has worked, but I think God is not done with her yet. I can also see how our poor example in some things and our mistakes have definitely affected her. God have mercy on me, a sinner.
In Christ,
Deborah
feeling sad and inadequate
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tovlo4801
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WJFR wrote:
I hope this makes sense and doesn't sound like I am stepping up again on one of the mini-Irish-Spring soapboxes Paddy likes to build towers with around here
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It needed to be said, and I'm glad you said it. 
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tovlo4801
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mom3aut1not wrote:
| Although nothing and no one are perfect this side of Heaven, obviously some educational methods are superior to others. Less obviously, is there a certain body of knowledge that everyone who is mentally capable should know? I say this is less obvious because in my experience unschoolers generally don't believe this. Public school teachers rarely do. I didn't when I started hsing. I do now. |
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Deborah,
Which educational methods are superior and which are inferior?
What is the body of knowledge that you now believe should be known by all children mentally capable of grasping it?
These statements get at the issues I've been wrestling with. As I've spun these things around in my mind, I've slowly come to opposite conclusions. I'm curious to hear more details on your thoughts.
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Natalia
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I read this complete thread today and it has given me a lot to think about. Like Richelle I also went to the dictionary and this is what I found:
Excellent- being of the highest or finest quality exceptionally good, superb.
To excell- to be better than, to surpass, to outdo; to surpass others, to be better or do better that others.
I guess that by this definition an excellent education is one "of the highest quality, exceptionally good, superb" . I don't know if I can provide an "excellent education" for my children. But I want to provide them with an education that would allow them to excell in whatever they choose to do. I want them to excell, not to outdo others or to surpass them, but because I think that being good at what you do is a good witness. I want my kids to be contributors to the building of the Kingdom.
I feel that I am at a crossroad. A couple of years ago I was sure that I wanted a Classical Education for my children. So I started to follow some of the suggestions from the WTM. Then I came accross CM and then I wanted to school that way or a combination of both. Then I read about unschooling and some things about it appealed to me. Then someone talks about literature based curriculum and I want that too!
I have a lot of thinking to do before we begin again in the fall. So to start my thought process I started thinking about what are my goals for my kids and what framework I can use to achieve those goals. It is not as if I have never thought of this things. But as I live and learn, grow and change so do my goals change.
Looking for a framework to guide me as I make decisions for next year I came across this website Trinity Schools. I like what they have to say in the section about their vision of education. I think this a framework I could make work for us even if I don't hs in pure Classical way.
I like what they say about their mission and I think it is a mission I can make my own
"Our mission is to educate students for thoughtful and purposeful adult lives which will contribute to the good of humanity and to the body of Christ. This education involves forming minds in fundamental intellectual habits and skills, teaching basic ordered knowledge, and fostering a love for the true, the good and the beautiful."
This next sentences seem to agree with the concensus you all were talking about: " ... we labor so that any student who wishes to learn will receive a superior education."
So here again is the factor of the student owning the learning process.
I do think that there are parameters to judge wheter an education is an excellent education. The question in my mind is how important is an excellent education. Should I pursue excellence at any expense or should I strive to do the best I can do? I think so. I think people are capable or succeeding even if their education wasn't excellent. The best I can do is to instill in them a love of learning and a curiosity about the world around them.
Jacques Delor in Education the Treasure Within talks about the four pilars of Education:
-To learn to know
-To learn to do
-To learn to live in community
-To learn to be
If we take this four pilars and place them in the context of our Faith I think that we have a good chance to produce good citizens of the Kingdom here on Earth and beyond.
Natalia
PS I hope this makes some sense I am tired.
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: excellence in education - what is it?
