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MicheleQ
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| Posted: May 10 2010 at 7:32pm | IP Logged
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Mrs.K wrote:
| We currently attend the TLM exclusively where it is obviously not an issue, but we recently went back to visit our former church. We were surprised and delighted to find they had replaced their old white server robes with cassocks and surplices for the boys. For the girls, they had full length black robes topped with long white scapulars. They looked beautiful and most reverent, and as my teenage son pointed out they looked like religious sisters. |
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Wow this is weird because I was just talking to a seminarian TODAY who was at that church recently (for the dedication) and he was telling me about the altar servers robes.
I was going to share about it and then you posted --how cool is that!
P.S. I was reading this message and thought "who is Mrs. K and where does she live . . . and then OH --duh!" 
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Michele Quigley
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Leocea
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I have to confess that I didn't know that some people don't allow girls to serve. I wasn't sure what the concern was when I was told. Our parish is so lacking in volunteers that girls are encouraged. My daughter serves, at almost 12. I can't imagine she is taking any boy's spot, when sometimes, the people on the schedule don't show up!!
I respect anyone's decision not to let their daughter serve and I see the benefit of a boy training for the priesthood. I guess I don't see why being at Mass, in the very presence of Christ, isn't enough!? I mean, the vocation comes from Him. He can certainly reach beyond the altar to touch their hearts. You either have a vocation or you don't.
I wonder why different parishes have such different rules. It is confusing to a convert, lol.
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Leocea, wife to Ken, mom to KC 22, Caitlin 17, Malea 13, Mary Catherine 10,Elina Rose,6,Andrew,3 and Lauren Celine,1. Angels 5/05, 5/08, 2/11 and Cameron 7/26/11.
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guitarnan
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Leocea, it is confusing to lifelong Catholics, too. In an ideal world, we would have boys serving at the altar alongside Father and the deacon.
In the real, U.S. Catholic world, the decision is made at the diocesan level. Given that decision in your diocese, you and your husband are free to impose restrictions on your children.
In my diocese, girls are allowed to serve.
In the next diocese south, geographically, girls may not serve.
I agree that it is a confusing situation. My dd has never asked about the priesthood, but her desire to serve at the altar comes from a heartfelt wish for involvement, so that she doesn't get distracted during Mass.
Perhaps this is one excellent example of episcopal decision-making? We are bound by our bishop's decision...and that's a good thing.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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LeeAnn
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| Posted: May 10 2010 at 10:51pm | IP Logged
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Leocea wrote:
| I respect anyone's decision not to let their daughter serve and I see the benefit of a boy training for the priesthood. I guess I don't see why being at Mass, in the very presence of Christ, isn't enough!? I mean, the vocation comes from Him. He can certainly reach beyond the altar to touch their hearts. You either have a vocation or you don't. |
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Ha, this could be a whole other thread! And in fact, one that's been discussed for days and days over at the CLAA forum. Is the religious life a calling for only some special few...or for anyone that is willing and able to answer the call? But I take your point, Leocea, that certainly not all who answer the call to religious life are those who have served at the altar as children. But I think also many men who have become priests have remarked that serving at the altar was a part of their childhoods.
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JodieLyn
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Alter serving is certainly a time when the kids do get to spend time with a priest and that can make an impact on what they think of the priesthood.. or vocations as a whole. I know they do talk to the kids serving here, both boys and girls about vocations.
And that is something a bit extra that the general population of kids at Mass may not get.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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crusermom
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Our parish (Anglican Use) does not allow girl alter servers, lectors, no EMs, etc. So, I don't have to worry about this whole issue - until the Army moves us again.
A priest explained to me that his personal thoughts on girl alter servers is that usually what happens is that once it is introduced, the boy volunteers drop off. It is not seen as a "guy" thing to do anymore. He was trying to get the high school boys to stick around - and he felt that was nearly impossible when the average server was a 12 yo girl.
Although God can certainly touch hearts anywhere, I think being an alter boy gives a "closer look" at what the role of the priest.
As for the girls being a distraction, I often think that the girls seem to do a pretty good job - and often seem less distracted and more focused than the boys of a similar age.
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Mary
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JennGM
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LeeAnn wrote:
Leocea wrote:
| I respect anyone's decision not to let their daughter serve and I see the benefit of a boy training for the priesthood. I guess I don't see why being at Mass, in the very presence of Christ, isn't enough!? I mean, the vocation comes from Him. He can certainly reach beyond the altar to touch their hearts. You either have a vocation or you don't. |
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Ha, this could be a whole other thread! And in fact, one that's been discussed for days and days over at the CLAA forum. Is the religious life a calling for only some special few...or for anyone that is willing and able to answer the call? But I take your point, Leocea, that certainly not all who answer the call to religious life are those who have served at the altar as children. But I think also many men who have become priests have remarked that serving at the altar was a part of their childhoods. |
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You are right, Leocea, a vocation to the priesthood or religious life is not for everyone. Not everyone has the call. But the call is usually gentle, soft, and can easily be lost if not nurtured. It needs nurturing. You can akin it to the parable of the sower, where the seed is the call, and it can fall on on the road, rocky soil, among thorns, or it can be sowed in the field and actually produce a strong vocation because it was in rich fertile background.
In the old rite, there was a first (or lowest) level of ordination was acolyte whose duties are similar to today's altar servers.
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LucyP
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mary theresa wrote:
Allowing girls to be altar servers is also, in a way, buying into the whole politically correct, women-must-be-equal-to-men mentality that is, as we know, so poisonous in our society.
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But aren't women equal to men, in the eyes of the Church? We may have different roles but we are equal.
Neither of my children is old enough to assist at the altar, but of the two I would imagine that DD would be more likely to do it than DS would be. And, if it was still allowed, we would likely encourage her to do so.
In our parish church, I have not seen any foolish behaviour except from one younger boy who tends to keep turning and smiling at his mother and trying to make the other servers giggle during the Gospel. The girls and the other boys all behave very reverently.
We also have a server who has a learning disability, and needs lots of help in fulfilling his role, being shepherded about and guided, and he will not have a vocation to the priesthood, but he still gains a great deal from his service and so do we all as we see him try so hard for God's glory with a look of such happiness on his face.
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CrunchyMom
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LucyP wrote:
| But aren't women equal to men, in the eyes of the Church? We may have different roles but we are equal. |
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Absolutey woman are equal! The politically correct idea is that equal means *same* and that women must become more like men in order to be "equal."
LucyP wrote:
Neither of my children is old enough to assist at the altar, but of the two I would imagine that DD would be more likely to do it than DS would be. |
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I think that this is actually why many see it as a problem to have girls where there isn't a need. Girls are more likely by nature to want to serve, and if a boy sees that girls will just do it, they will often let them and not do it.
It is almost as if boys *need* to be needed to step forward more so than girls and the role of altar server has been a long standing tradition for getting boys involved where they otherwise would not.
It is just one perspective, and obviously the Church makes allowances for the differing needs of different Churches. I don't think that the decision is in any way based on whether girls are capable. In some ways, I think that girls make better altar servers. They are often less fidgety, etc... But, in a way, it is because girls are more inclined towards this type of role that leads to reserving it for boys.
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Lindsay
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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guitarnan
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Women are very important in the eyes of the Church, for sure. We do have different roles and vocations.
I personally feel that each family has to discern whether allowing daughters to serve at the altar will work for their family and parish. Our pastor encourages all children to consider serving, but that doesn't mean that serving is appropriate for all children. Parents can certainly talk with their pastor to find out if the need for girls to serve is real and to ask about other issues that concern them.
I have not seen a decline in the number of boys serving when girls are permitted to serve - but we've only been members of five or six parishes (we're military) over the years, so things may be different in other places. And, in some parishes we've joined, there have been so few families (40, in one tiny parish) that the girls were really and truly needed.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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MicheleQ
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One of the problems I see with having a lot of servers (as our parish does) is that they serve so infrequently that they don't get enough mass time practice (they have periodic practices outside of mass but serving AT mass is the best practice) and Fr. gets frustrated because things aren't done right and the servers aren't sure what to do. It ends up being very distracting to "watch". At parishes we've been in where there weren't a lot of servers it meant the same kids had to serve often and for a time my boys were serving every Sunday. But that wasn't a bad thing --it meant they got really good at serving and Fr. knew who he could call for funerals, weddings and special masses. Now we mostly attend the Latin mass at another parish and there are only 2 teams of servers so my boys serve every other week without fail. It's good for them and it means they know well what they are doing --and there's a whole lot more to remember when serving the TLM! Plus it is much less distracting to the congregation because things run smoothly.
I also agree with what Jenn wrote above, vocations to the priesthood often need to be nurtured. In the current culture the call can be drowned out by many things and serving at the altar is indeed helpful.
And backing up what Lindsay said, as a mom of 25 years I can certainly attest to the fact that the boys will often not step up to do something if they see the girls will do it. Certainly the girls are capable and I would say even MORE capable than some of the boys --particularly at that age. But some of these boys NEED to be pushed out of their comfort zone a bit. My girls are capable of doing their chores AND the boys chores and doing them faster and better than the boys. And believe me, if I allowed it the boys would let them do it --but it's not going to happen. 
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Michele Quigley
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: May 11 2010 at 10:03am | IP Logged
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MicheleQ wrote:
| And backing up what Lindsay said, as a mom of 25 years I can certainly attest to the fact that the boys will often not step up to do something if they see the girls will do it. Certainly the girls are capable and I would say even MORE capable than some of the boys --particularly at that age. But some of these boys NEED to be pushed out of their comfort zone a bit. My girls are capable of doing their chores AND the boys chores and doing them faster and better than the boys. And believe me, if I allowed it the boys would let them do it --but it's not going to happen. |
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I should clarify that is isn't that the boys aren't capable of doing as much as the girls --they certainly are-- but they just aren't as motivated.
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Michele Quigley
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stacykay
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In our diocese, I think the majority of the churches allow girls to altar serve. Our's is one that doesn't. We certainly don't lack for servers, though. My ds only gets assigned to two Masses every 3 month schedule as there are so many who want to serve. We have 4 Masses each weekend (one Sat. and three on Sun.) with four altar boys at each Mass. There have been opportunities to "pick up" Masses for Christmas/Easter, etc., or when someone is sick.
Ds has said he likes being "so close" to our priests during Mass. It has definitely led him to think about the priesthood.
And that is just our experience in our little corner of the church. 
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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guitarnan
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| Posted: May 11 2010 at 9:08pm | IP Logged
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Stacy, that's just lovely!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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kingvozzo
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Thanks for the further discussion of this! I appreciate it!
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Noreen
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mamalove
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we also attend the TLM, have a very small parish, and have 6-7 boys up on the altar at every Sunday high Mass, so it is not an issue with us.
If I remember correctly, girl servers came about because so many dioceses were being disobedient and having girls serve, so it was OK'd to quell the disobedience. Then the disclamer was added "only when necessary" that girls can serve.
But in many instances that is not the case these days, it has become about "equality" and "fairness"
Last summer we had Totus Tuus at our local parish. My son and another boy were willing to serve daily Mass. But one day they were told to go back downstairs because "Brianna hadn't had a turn yet"
so there you have it. These supposedly solid Catholic college kids who were leading this don't even know the basic rules.
Also, its one thing to have a bigger altar boy correct you on something, but it is quite another to have some girl your age tell you that you are doing something wrong in regards to serving at the altar.
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JodieLyn
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We do need to be careful here. While one situation in one location may be considered abuse.. another situation that we don't know about may NOT be an abuse. Painting with too broad a brush only causes hurt feelings on both sides.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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guitarnan
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I can't comment on how the rule change came about (lack of knowledge). In our parish, it's not about equality and fairness, it's about availability. We're a large parish, but we don't have all that many altar servers. Filling out the schedule is a challenge for our coordinator.
And I would agree that it is preferable to have male altar servers, but it doesn't always follow logically that 1) there are enough boys to serve, particularly in small parishes (I was a member of a 45-family parish and learned a great deal from that experience); or that 2) if girls are permitted to serve, that they are less able to help new servers "learn the ropes," so to speak. Our parish's goal is to have three servers per Mass and we are lucky if we get two. If one is a "new guy," he'll naturally look to Father and to the other altar server for help, male or female.
In those parishes where girls are allowed to serve at the altar, it falls to us parents to explain the differences between serving and preparing for a priestly vocation, and to provide our children with examples of vocations to the religious life. We must also explain to our daughters that altar serving is not a path to the priesthood for them. (I have to say, my dd was very pragmatic about this. Her desire to serve was rooted in her wish to be fully present at Mass, without distraction. It's hard to argue with that.)
Mamalove, I am sorry that your experiences with altar serving haven't been entirely positive. I know practices vary from place to place, and it can be frustrating to deal with specific situations. I look at our altar boys every Sunday and hope that some of them will open themselves to God's call (and one of them from our co-op has...he heads to minor seminary this fall). That's the ultimate objective. Along the way, pathways may vary, depending on what the local bishop decides. We parents can work to nurture proper vocations and pray for an abundance of boys who want to serve at the altar...what a blessing that would be for every parish!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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JodieLyn
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I was looking around on this topic and at EWTN I found this very nice Q/A discussion about girls serving at the altar by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.
One interesting point that was made that I'm pretty sure hasn't been brought up here at all is..
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Thus the formal ministries of the Church are open only to males, while altar servers, readers and extraordinary ministers of Communion, whose function is to substitute for the lack of proper ministers, may be delegated to Catholics of either sex.
Even when these functions are carried out frequently, or even daily, they will always be essentially delegated and substitutive. In this context the canonical decision to open service at the altar to girls was logical since every other delegated ministry had already been opened up.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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guitarnan
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Thanks for that quote, Jodie. I had not thought of this in that way at all.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Are your daughters Altarboys?
