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MacBeth
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| Posted: Jan 18 2007 at 4:03pm | IP Logged
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lamamaloca wrote:
This is my concern as my husband and I try to plan for the kids' schooling. My husband believes very strongly in a classical curriculum. I just don't see how focusing on things like Greek mythology or Ancient history is particularly beneficial to an elementary aged child. They can get that later if necessary, can't they?
Becky |
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Hey Becky! Welcome to the forum!
My thought on this is that putting off mythology and ancient history is the antithesis of Real Learning. I am sure others may disagree, and please, feel free to say so, but I believe that in order to make learning real for kids, there must be some introduction--not a full-fledged study, mind you, but an introduction--to mythology and history. When the kids get older, as they read more, I want them to make connections to what they already know. There are too many allusions to mythology and history everywhere in our society that our children, even the young ones, are at a disadvantage without knowing the basic stories of our culture.
I am reminded of Lewis' (paraphrased) description of Eustace: He had read all the wrong books. He did not know what a dragon was. Eustace was mythological deprived, and that put him at an intellectual and spiritual disadvantage. Had he read about dragons, he might have had the knowledge he needed to prevent himself from becoming one. 
I do think if history and mythology are separated and compartmentalized as studies only for older kids, we run the risk of making these studies a chore rather than a joy. There should be a natural flow from the basics to the more advanced studies, as in most subjects. That said, I don't think these studies need to be as comprehensive as they might be in high school. Introducing a few myths, or some history, to elementary children is not the same as having them study the life and times of Caligula  , or the Odyssey in its literal entirety.
But just as we want our children to know geometric shapes long before they study Euclid, so they should know some basics before they tackle ancient history and mythology in high school. At what age, and how much information, is up to the family.
It might be an interesting family project to count the mythological or historical allusions that appear during a week. Advertising, astronomy, literature, music, and more all expect some knowledge of mythology or history from the public.
Say, when I welcomed you to the "forum" that was one already!
Have to run...interesting discussion!
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MacBeth in NY
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JennGM
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| Posted: Jan 18 2007 at 4:33pm | IP Logged
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Macbeth, I love when you expound! It's wonderful, and I totally agree with you. I really don't belong in this discussion because my child isn't old enough! But here I am, sticking my nose in again!
I think we ate these myths up. I think it belongs in every education, but necessarily all at once. References are found everywhere -- cartoons. Although I studied them at a deeper level in high school, I was snatching up bits and pieces all around me. But we also read other forms of myths, fables, folktales and fairytales. Loved them. And adding the Greeks wasn't a stretch.
Ever read those Edward Dolch "Stores of ____" from all different countries? That was one of our favorite series, giving a taste of Hawaiian, French, Russian, et al folktales for young readers. I think we had volumes permanently checked out.
One of my favorite books when I was growing up (and my two sisters) was...don't laugh...a college textbook "Anthology of Children's Literature". It goes against everything in this forum! Few illustrations, lots of tiny print, thick volume. But it was excerpts from Children's literature books. My mother picked it up at some point and we read stories, fables, poems, riddles and more day after day. It was a permanent reading prop. I didn't realize it was a textbook until I took a Children's Lit class in college and there it was, a later edition.
And that was another source of those Greek myths...just a small smattering, but enough to whet our appetite and curiosity for more (our own Rabbit Trails followed).
And I'll again recommend Edith Hamilton's Mythology, though it is surprising to see the price! And some of her other titles are going for way too much!
I'll stop now.
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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 18 2007 at 7:25pm | IP Logged
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All right MacBeth, I'm gain for another round . Only joking - but I do love being challenged by your ideas. I sense that your children are well rounded and faithful young people - so what you say has certain weight. I know I'll be over in the science thread in the near future looking for ideas for my poor science fan with a mommy who is a science idiot. But this whole mythology thing is something I feel pretty strongly about - perhaps because I keep running into folks locally who want to say we are failing to educate our children if we don't immerse them in myth or we're losing our souls if we read any myths at all. I think both positions are extreme. (Just background info as that heavily colors my passion).
Really, I think there may be a confusion on emphasis here. We do do history (and it certainly incorporates ancient history to some degree) and our children do read some mythological things before high school - but they don't have to have focused years on exclusively ancient materials, nor do they have to have tons of myth reading, nor is it a problem if I wisely prune the degree to which we are immersed. I am doing a year of study on the Ancients with my highschooler - do I really have to do an entire year on Ancient Greece and another year on Ancient Rome? I'm not saying that there are no arguements for doing more intense studies for some - but I am uncomfortable with so much time immersed in the actual ancient, pagan cultures - and would prefer to have slightly different emphasis. I do not think my 8 yo needs to read about a man eating monster or Oedipus. We filter - and try to focus and discern what of all that is out there is most important and beneficial to our children at each level. I think one of the problems of the Renaissance was that people became so enamored with Ancient that they forgot to discern - some of the ancient lit is better than others, more in line with truth and less twisted. Just because it came from an Ancient time and place does not make it worthy or appropriate. Kolbe has students reading a lot of Greek plays with very, very adult content - now I don't have a problem with Kolbe offering the material and appreciate that they do help the parent by tagging that this is more adult - I would have a problem if they made me use it with my children. I don't have a problem with other people looking at it as a teaching tool - I am equally confident that I am correct in discerning that this would not be what my dd needs at this time. So we require that she read the Iliad, the Aenied and substitute some other works for the plays. We challenge her a bit/ or stretch her but are well within REAL learning to exercise prudence in what we choose to have on the required reading list and what we choose to leave off. The reality is that none of us can read the entire body of good literature that is now available even in a full lifetime. Granted, a lot of the ancient lit has been filtered for us already but who among us takes a book list and doesn't discern anew for our own circumstances, no matter how reliable the booklist source. Hopefully we achieve a balance.
During the Renaissance, it was partially infatuation with pagan ideas (people reading what they were not yet ready for - unable or unwilling to really filter truth from falsehood in the material, perhaps some academic pride) that created chaos and disruption and partially bad living and example on the part of believers. I think we go around and around with some of the same problems - and we all need to strive for a correct appreciation. There is some wonderful Catholic lit. that no one will ever point out to my children, if I don't (in great old Bible belt they won't even be heard of). If I do every recommended ancient myth and book, we won't have time for some of this other material. I suspect my dc will have many opportunities to read Ancient works and we can even find these in libraries. Of course I do want to be the first to introduce her to some of these ancient authors but no one else will pull out the great Catholic authors for her. We still want to focus on what is good, holy and beautiful - so I'm not advocating ditching all mythology but advocating using some prudence in what we read, when we read it and not just jump on a bandwagon that says we must saturate our children in ancient material from the time they are K on up. That is what turns me off in the classical approach. I have no problem incorporating some materials in what we do - as it is natural and appropriate for the individual child. I do not think a child who reads myths at 12 or 13 is handicapped in comparison to a child that reads them when they are 8 no more than I think a child who is 8 is handicapped because they are not yet writing great sentences or even reading well yet. For many children a gentle and careful exposure is the better approach and we shouldn't be made to feel guilty that we haven't bought all the children's versions, etc. and aren't doing entire years on the study of Ancient Greece in 3rd and 4th grade. A lot of the tales that came with RC history were ones I thought my dc would enjoy - but they were not appropriate at this time for these children. I don't feel guilty about that or about setting them aside till they are older!
I do not hand my children a lot of myths to read - but they have read Tolkien, they have read some parts of stories of the Iliad, the 11 yo will be reading The Librarian that Measured the Earth. We have conversations and our conversations might be sprinkled with a reference to Midas - and then we talk about the story. If a fire is lit, I might pick up an appropriate book for them to read. If not they have been exposed to the story. If we are doing art study, something is bound to come up, and we will be exposed through that avenue. They certainly know that ancient peoples believed in many gods and that many of the days of the weeks are named after old gods (and gee isn't it odd, but seems lots of people now are going back to pagan gods). My science fan (almost 10) reads some of the science of the ancient world - and there is some myth in that as well. They've read plenty about dragons etc. - but I like the symbols more clear and less confused at first. (I agreed a lot with A Landscape with Dragons).
I still think the Ancient materials can be confusing and troubling to the younger child and we should exercise the same prudence with our exposing our children to these as we do to any other literature or material with more adult (in the case of myths often petty and immature adult, granted) content. Sometimes I think people get enamored with - but it is classical lit or ... and forget that we still must discern. As an adult, I can see the humor, the ethos of pagan without a messiah - my children may not yet be mature enough to handle this. The innocence of childhood is a precious thing and I do not want to rob my children of this by force feeding material too early. Just because someone cautions about this aspect does not mean we don't appreciate myths.(MacBeth, I don't think you assume this - and probably not any on this board but I sure have run into people that will immediately think we are prudish because we are exercising discernment. I also know people sometimes act shocked when we read some myths as it is often very frowned on among the evangelical crowd - I really am trying to argue for some balance). I do think there is a point in being aware of the adult content of the mythology and we should be careful when young children are concerned - and hopefully recognize that different people will draw different conclusions about the same works for their children and sometimes even for different children in the same family. Some of my children handle the blood and guts of the Iliad much better than other ones - one of my children despises it to this day. Some of mine are more literalists - all good or all bad types whereas others appreciate nuances earlier than others. I do think we should all carefully discern. I set the D'Aulieare book in my closet for a while when my dc were younger. It just seemed too much. It is out on the shelf again but not on an assigned reading list. I guess I got a bit tired of all the things folks were telling me had to be done for an educated child and most of these lists incorporated very heavily anti-Catholic publishers or were very, very heavy on mythology and ancient study. I, personally, felt that it was out of balance. We will read some myths - but we will read what seems appropriate for our own children at the appropriate time - and not feel guilty about what we leave off. Our learning is just as real.
Perhaps some of my approach is colored by the fact that most of my children are not reading all that well at younger ages (all have had vision problems) - but when they do read, they have a certain maturity and exposure nonetheless. My most avid reader, couldn't even read until she was 10. I will not be paniced by anyone who tells me you have to do something early in order to benefit the child or be fair to them. Each child is unique and I think each parent should not be afraid to discern regardless of the latest homeschooling bandwagon (many do come and go over the years - whether it is No myth or immerse in myth or absolutely no workbooks allowed or workbooks are the blessing of large families or do history sequentially or time line or unit study..or learn your history from novels..). I think all these things have some place - but we must have balance in our household - that is a reality of real life. I do not want my chidren to just memorize - but there are things worth having in memory, etc., etc.
Janet
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Jan 18 2007 at 9:27pm | IP Logged
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Janet, I want to get back to you on this in the morning...I am not sure we disagree, but that we might misunderstand how each uses curriculum, an entirely different issue  .
I do want to relate an interesting conversation I had with Trip this evening. I asked him what he thought about studying Greek mythology, and especially to think back on his younger years and remember his thoughts. He answered, "One of the things that always fascinated me was the difference and similarity between Greek creation myths and the Judeo-Christian creation. When the Greeks needed to explain away sin and hardship, they told the story of Pandora's box. That's very different from Eden and the Serpent. But in the Prometheus myth, their story of creation, man was made from the earth, just as our theology tells us--we are dust. It's as if they knew some things, but had forgotten others, and used their myths to fill in the missing parts."
So I asked how he felt about the horrible stories.
"Well, they aren't true, so they were just good stories."
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ALmom
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| Posted: Jan 19 2007 at 11:04pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth,
I think we really don't disagree on the myth part (maybe our emphasis in the home will be slightly different and the ages at which some things are introduced, but I do think we agree that without a background, it is hard to pick up the Iliad and like it - just when do you develop that background). I'm interested in hearing your response. I know what you describe as your son's reaction is what I would expect from a child who is ready for the material. I also am not terribly concerned about similiarities to Biblical truths - again provided the child is ready for that. I would read the Bible (children's version) first, though. I don't think I'd be inclined to read them in a muddle all together. And not before my children had a clear grasp between truth and fiction.
I have more trouble with the s* innuendos. The gore and violence are things my boys can handle just fine the way it is presented in Greek myth. (We don't go into David's infidelity and murder with our younger ones either though - they certainly learn that at some point when they are actually reading an adult Bible) but they love the battle scenes and the slaying of Goliath - even to the cutting the head off. I don't want to open up the whole can of worms with the s* with my littles, so I choose myths carefully. Now most of mine probably would not have reacted to a man eating monster but it probably isn't something I would have pulled out to say - wow, guys you just have to read this, nor do I call attention to the head rolling off Goliath (generally aren't pictures like that thankfully)though I wont' feel like I have to skip a sentence that says David reached over and used Goliaths sword to chop the head off.
My children do not read in the early years without some very active encouragement (vision problems make it a strain for them so it has to really grab them to make it something they will continue, and reading aloud is harder to be sensitive to the readiness, so you pick things you know they will like, that you also know will not cause harm. As they begin to become readers - then things get picked up and read a little more naturally in our household, though not to the same extent that I read about on these boards until the vision problem is fully corrected - so my dc are not picking and reading like crazy until about 10 or older with some. We always read aloud and require some reading - mostly through active enticement - but I make sure that I feel certain that whatever we entice them too will keep them interested and not cause problems.
I'd love a list source of myths that would give caveats - be aware of... so that we could more easily pick and choose stories without waiting for me to get around to rereading them. I also would like recommendations for particular editions.
From other posts you have made, you do seem very sensitive to readiness of the child and if something is terribly upsetting then you have suggested waiting awhile. Perhaps my frustration with my own experiences made me a little strongly worded (ie overreacting) and perhaps overcautious considering the openness of this group to all different ways of doing things. I know people sometimes assume that I don't like or want my dc to read myths when I mention caution about some of them and do not realize that we are simply discerning here like everywhere else. I tend to be more cautious than not and probably don't read as many as other folks - but I do think they are important for many of the reasons stated. I find I am equally cautious about many other kinds of books recommended - Greek, Roman or modern. I don't think there is a set age at which you must begin - and I think parents should feel free to follow the promptings that come with the grace of Matrimony to discern when and if a certain child should read a certain work. The younger they are, the more directly this tends to happen. There is also the discovery that many things go over a child's head if they are not ready for it and it is more genteely worded and their attention isn't drawn to it - so this is another consideration in the mix. I know I never caught any of this kind of thing in Shakespeare and thought my prof was making stuff up.
I really would love to hear how you discern which things you put out and what you might consider good ages to consider reading different myths and why. I suspect I am more on the later is better side of the equation but don't mind hearing some of the signs of readiness you looked for - or perhaps it is just a matter of general exposure (NYC is bound to be quite a bit different than AL). I really want my children's natural latent period respected so that is why I lean the way I do. (We can deal with all kinds of three headed monsters and wild critters - even gruesome (to a degree) battles - but not the wife stealing, concubines, etc.
Janet
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JennyMaine
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| Posted: Jan 22 2007 at 5:36am | IP Logged
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I had one year of Ancient history in High School and took Classical Mythology in College. I loved studying Greek and Roman mythology then! It's nothing I feel my kids need to get deeply into until they are much older. Just my opinion! When I see a depiction of a famous myth in art or one is referenced in conversation, I offer a simple explanation to the kids. I follow it up with a comment like, "Our souls were made to worship God. . .when we don't know His truths, we make things up to satisfy that longing to know and to worship."
Hate to be anti-Charlotte here, but we just don't go there. There is so much good Christian literature out there, and I want to steep them in it and leave them to brew awhile! Particularly in my area of Maine, the wiccan religion is on the rise, with shops opening locally that cater to pagan religions, etc. Gothic is still in up here! Knowing the tenderness of a child's soul at this age, I don't want to put anything before them that will tempt them to admire pagan myths. Not with pagan religions experiencing a revival.
The story which always creeped me out the most was Medea. I remember distinctly watching the movie "The Lion in Winter" when I was in Jr. high. During the movie, King Henry says to Eleanor of Aquitaine, "You are Medea to the teeth." Of course, I just had to go look it up because I didn't understand the reference. Ewwwww. . .gross. But there's been many a day when I can so relate to Atlas! Some days I feel like I'm also carrying the weight of the world! (5 minute break? Ya think? OK, let me set this sphere down. . .)
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--JennyMaine, Mom to Catherine (17) and Sam (15) "The countenance is a reflection of the soul. You should always have a calm and serene countenance." -- Therese of Lisieux
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Willa
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| Posted: Jan 22 2007 at 10:46am | IP Logged
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Such an interesting discussion.
I would say that it is Christian to admire the pagans, their myths and their explorations towards the truth. This has been a trend in Christianity since earliest days.
St Basil's Address on Greek Literature
So I'd make a distinction between protecting your children from things that horrify them -- FINE in my book, part of our job of being a parent -- and critiquing the use of the old myths as possibly harmful to one's faith. I think it would be quite possible to argue, given the Church's traditional use of myth and Greek literature, that a properly formed faith is actually benefited by familiarity with the stories and insights of the pagans.
Again, just to make it clear -- if one's duty as a parent calls one to avoid Greek myths because of one's own individual child -- his faith or imagination is shaken -- then that is our job. SO I'm not saying everyone has to use the Greeks in their homeschool. I'm just saying that in certain ways, Greek literature is part of a fine Catholic education. Not strictly necessary, but not a problematic thing that has crept in the back door, either.
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Willa
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Jan 22 2007 at 11:32am | IP Logged
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Well, I never said just which morning I'd get back to this, right? 
I feel like I'm caught between the Scylla of keeping strong material from young readers, and the Charybdis of fear of making our children in to pagans.
As homeschooling moms, we have to be very aware of what our kids can handle. We, as primary educators of our children, need to know what our kids need to know for safety's sake, and know when to tell them...whatever it is they need to know. We don't want to scare younger children with stories of strangers, yet there will be a time when we will need to have that discussion. We don't want to tell them about se* too soon, but we need to tell them just as much as they need to know so that they are not surprised . I believe that what works for these sensitive issues also works for educational issues, too. I don't mean that education is like a bad thing, but there are certain ideas that we must know in order to better our understanding of the world around us.
Janet, here's what I mean about us missing something. and maybe this goes back to the original conversation that Elizabeth started. We don't do "units" at our house; we read books. We do not immerse ourselves in every Greek myth, do an exhaustive study, and then move on. Rather, we dabble, spending as much time on the myths as the kids need or want. Yes, I am very sensitive to their fears and comfort levels. I would never have them read Lysistrata or Oedipus as young children! .
I do let them read The Odyssey because it is a ripping good tale. The issue of adultery is a problem, but since Circe is an enchantress, it's easy to brush it off to some extent. Besides, the overall theme is the faithfulness of Odysseus' wife (and dog ), even under threat. The problem of monstrous creatures doing monstrous things is just not a big deal with my kids, for whatever reason. It's interesting...some kids are very shy, some kids are very outgoing. Some kids are able to tell the difference between reality and myth very early. Some kids are not. It is, as you say, Janet, up to the parent to determine what a child can handle at what age. We are in total agreement here.
OTOH , Consider this friend of mine. She is always telling me that her kids are so sensitive. She keeps them from anything that might be slightly scary (they are young teens now), and it is her right to do that. But she has missed the fact that behind her back, these kids are mean and threatening to other kids. Now I am not saying that this applies to anyone here. In fact, I think the point is that we homeschoolers are very "in tune" with our kids, and we are not just saying that our kids are sensitive (or insensitive, as in my case  ). But I think we also risk the possibility of misinterpreting what kids can handle through our sensitivities and anxieties. Please, feel free to disagree with me on this one. Perhaps my friend's case is so unusual that it does not factor into this discussion. But it bugs me that she is not as aware as she thinks she is  .
Jenny wrote:
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| There is so much good Christian literature out there, and I want to steep them in it and leave them to brew awhile! |
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I guess my point is that what we call Christian literature is itself so steeped in mythological images, our understanding of even Christian lit is limited without a good knowledge of mythology. I understand what you mean when you say that if this imagery comes up, you explain it, but I contend that this is not enough. There will come a time when you miss something, or cannot explain it is its fullness. And maybe that's not a big deal.
Jenny, I'm going to pick on you for a minute. Please don't be offended. I am not disagreeing with your points at all, but am trying to make a few subtle points myself, and you provide an interesting quote:
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| But there's been many a day when I can so relate to Atlas! Some days I feel like I'm also carrying the weight of the world! |
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(I know what you mean!! )
Here's a good example of the point I mentioned above...it is a common misinterpretation of the Atlas story, one that is understandable, as it has been perpetuated in art and literature, that Atlas is holding up the earth. Rather, it is the sky, often depicted as "the celestial sphere" which Atlas holds. I am not pointing this out to show that you don't know it all (none of us does, especially not me ), but to show how easily details can be missed if we don't know the whole story. And again, maybe it does not matter in the grand scheme of things.
As for kids becoming pagan because they read pagan myths...since most kids in the western world read these myths, and since the number of Zeus worshippers is very small (I hear there is a group currently in court in Greece for the right to use some temple  ), I hesitate to say that these fears are unfounded, but the wiccan issue is more insidious, and seems to be based on a more "northern" mythology. When we study Celtic myth or Norse myths, I would emphasize the difference between what so-called "wiccans" do now versus the actual practices (as we know them) of pre-Christian peoples. Your concerns about the wiccan community in Maine is well-founded, but I think the Greek myth connection is a red herring.
In the end, none of what I have to say negates anyone's right to reserve myths until the kids are older. Nor does it preclude anyone from using a kinder, gentler version of any story, or leaving a story (or entire mythology) out altogether. I hope that I have not offended anyone. I have tried to simply explained my "opinion" on the matter . Only you know what's right for your kids, what they can handle, and how they will react to certain imagery. I hope my "opinion" is food for thought, and not interpreted as set in stone. I do love a good debate!
But...Suppose the kids are on Teen Jeopardy some day, and the category is "Greek Mythology" !
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MacBeth in NY
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AnaB
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| Posted: Jan 22 2007 at 12:47pm | IP Logged
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Hey Elizabeth,
I haven't finished reading all the responses, but to me, bottom line is what is the Holy Spirit leading you and your family to do in this situation? End of story.
I think the most imporant developmental task for the elementary years is to give them a good foundation in their faith. We are to "make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; etc" 2 Peter 1:5. Faith comes first, goodness (I understand this as character) and then knowledge. If you sense a child is not spiritually ready for some "knowledge" then it's your responsibility to heed that word of caution from the Lord.
I am not completely Classical or completely CM, so we tailor our children's education to each child with lots of prayer and a little of alot of things. We've made God the Principle of our school and I realize that not heeding His promptings leads me to feeling burdened and in bondage from carrying a yoke He never meant for me to carry. He knows the purpose He has for each child and what it will take to equip each one for it.
How many of us had a truly classical education? I don't feel I was impeded or hindered in any way. Now, the education I desire for my children is so much more rich than what I was given, but I'm just trying to put it all in perspective: your child will not be harmed by waiting to tackle Greek myths until later.
I have found that in our home, I have had to pull back from allowing too much myths, fables, Star Wars, false gods, etc... from some my children because I saw they were becoming more consumed with those things than with the things of the Lord. The things of the world are like potato chips to me and can fill them up to where they no longer thirst for the things of God. Even waiting a year has made a huge difference with one of my children. He's able to handle some of these things in a much more balanced way. He can look at some of these things and separate himself from it a little rather than becoming completely consumed. That requires maturity and certain developmental milestones.
Well, I've gone on too much. Sorry about that. As much as I find so many things and subjects interesting, I have had to learn (and continue to learn) discernment to know what is right for each of my children and for me. I'm not a slave to a scope and sequence. Not everything has to be included in our days. It has helped me to write down my "principle of 6" in homeschooling so that I'm not being torn back and forth by everything I hear and see that others are doing. I can't do it all. My children don't want to do it all. So, we prayerfully consider each choice and each child.
I'm preaching to the choir, I know. Your book, Elizabeth was so empowering because of this very message. Life's too short to be spending time reading stuff that doesn't fit the need or time. That's my inflated two cent, but who am i? Take this all with prayer and a grain of salt.
Keep us posted!
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His By Grace, AnaB blessed WIFE to Jeff and mama to 4 blessings!
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Theresa
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I've been reading here and have to admit ya'all are way over my head. We just started a light intro today as we started studying the Aegean civilization. We read briefly about Minotaur and Theseus and then played a fun maze game. I know as the week goes on we will be learning more and we start reading the Children's Homer - The adventures of Odysseus and the Tale of Troy in a few weeks. I'm looking forward to this story... but I have to be honest in that I hate all the icky things. It's hard for me to think about these things when the Bible so clearly tells us to think on the things that are pure, lovely and of good report.
It's not that I am trying to keep my children from learning about this... I am just as uneducated about the myths as they are (why don't I remember these from school????) and I dont want to get into something and then feel like I shouldn't.
This is definitely a reason to seek the wisdom of God as to what and how far one should go and I'm so thankful for the Holy Spirits direction and guidance in my life.
Do all of you undertake this on its own or is it incorporated into the curriculum you are using? We are using My Father's World - Creation to the Greeks this year and the lessons are already planned for me.
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Jan 22 2007 at 1:46pm | IP Logged
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JennyMaine wrote:
I remember distinctly watching the movie "The Lion in Winter" when I was in Jr. high. During the movie, King Henry says to Eleanor of Aquitaine, "You are Medea to the teeth." Of course, I just had to go look it up because I didn't understand the reference. Ewwwww. . .gross.
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I was thinking that the references to homose*uality in Lion in Winter were more repulsive to me than a mythological metaphor...much more real, don't you know.
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Becky Parker
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This is a very interesting thread for me. We have our annual homeschool "Festival of the Arts" coming up and one of the things my ds (13yo) was going to do was a presentation on Mythology. Now, I'm wondering if that would be a bad idea... There will be younger children there so I told him he couldn't get into any of the really scary stories but still... He might have to think of something else. I will say that he is quite interested in it and it has lead to some great theological conversations around here!
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Karen E.
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| Posted: Jan 23 2007 at 7:33am | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
I'd make a distinction between protecting your children from things that horrify them -- FINE in my book, part of our job of being a parent -- and critiquing the use of the old myths as possibly harmful to one's faith. |
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Absolutely. I think this is a crucial point. My girls were repulsed by the D'Aulaire book in particular (it opens with a particularly nasty story ....) but that doesn't mean we have -- or would -- dump all references to mythology, early pagan beliefs and the like. I just do it in my own words.
Reading certain details will come more fully in the next couple of years for my oldest, later for my middle child, probably.
I don't think we have to be afraid of these things when they are taught in the context of our faith. I've taught my children, from very early on, that the Catholic faith teaches the fullness of the Truth -- but that other belief systems sometimes had a "flicker" of the Truth, because, as our Catholic faith teaches us, God wrote the natural law on all men's hearts.
This is the kind of thing MacBeth's Trip was expressing here:
MacBeth wrote:
an interesting conversation I had with Trip ....
He answered, "One of the things that always fascinated me was the difference and similarity between Greek creation myths and the Judeo-Christian creation. When the Greeks needed to explain away sin and hardship, they told the story of Pandora's box. That's very different from Eden and the Serpent. But in the Prometheus myth, their story of creation, man was made from the earth, just as our theology tells us--we are dust. It's as if they knew some things, but had forgotten others, and used their myths to fill in the missing parts." |
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We live in a world full of temptations away from the Catholic faith ... by equipping our children with the critical thinking skills to compare and contrast everything in light of our faith, we're actually doing them a service, rather than shielding them from those things.
Like Willa, I am not advocating forcing something on a sensitive child that he/she is not ready for. At one time, I had one of the most sensitive children around, I think.
But, within the bounds of their needs and sensitivities, I think we can still expose them to these things -- belief systems which Christianity was up against, and still is, in so many ways.
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Karen E.
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MichelleM
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QUOTE=MacBeth] I think the point is that we homeschoolers are very "in tune" with our kids, and we are not just saying that our kids are sensitive (or insensitive, as in my case ).
MacBeth,
It sounds as if your children are very sensitive to the myths. They are sensitive to the power of story; sensitive to the deeper meaning of myth and seeing the story within the Story. And then leaving rest as fiction.
I have to admit we haven't read the Greek or Norse myths to our children yet. We did touch on some Egyptian myths and recently watched The Little Princess which dealt with Hindu mythology. Honestly both did make me uncomfortable, but we dealt with the stories with lots of discussion about the purpose of myth in culture. These discussions always end with "Isn't it amazing how great God is. He wanted ALL his children to know him so he wrote in our hearts enough Truth that we would seek & know him."
And in regards to that which is completely false and erroneous, with symbols confused, "That's why Jesus chose to die on the cross so that ALL people could have the whole Truth. So they could come to know the greatest story."
It's funny too, that my children can handle the gruesomeness of Lord of the Rings (The book and cartoon movie-which in my opinion is pretty scary with those glowing red eyes) but have a difficult time with stories that in the end don't "ring" true.
For example, we rented the video Watership Down from the library and all the children were terrified. I think it was because they see rabbits as always being good and it was shocking for them to see vicious rabbits(as well as people). If the villains were wolves I think they would have been fine. We popped it out of the VCR (without finishing it) and put in Lord of the Rings and everyone was fine, even with the "nasty orcses."
We have been reading a lot about CS Lewis and Tolkien and they both talk so much about the power of myth that my interest in the subject was already peaked. It seems to be time to dig deeper into the world of myth.
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Our nature blog: All of Creation
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Jan 23 2007 at 10:53am | IP Logged
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MacBeth wrote:
JennyMaine wrote:
I remember distinctly watching the movie "The Lion in Winter" when I was in Jr. high. During the movie, King Henry says to Eleanor of Aquitaine, "You are Medea to the teeth." Of course, I just had to go look it up because I didn't understand the reference. Ewwwww. . .gross.
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I was thinking that the references to homose*uality in Lion in Winter were more repulsive to me than a mythological metaphor...much more real, don't you know. |
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And while you both were thinking your own thoughts, I was thinking how painful it was to witness such horribly disordered relationships in action. I kept thinking if only Eleanor of Aquitaine had read "The Privilege of Being a Woman" .
Sorry to digress...
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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ALmom
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MacBeth - and all - you have given me much to ponder. Part of the reason I responded to you again was because I have always had a "mixed feeling" type of thing going on with myths. I had that sense of uneasiness when I read some stuff and thinking about giving it to my dc to read. I knew I couldn't. Yet, I had a sense of uneasiness of outright forbidding the reading forever and a sense that I didn't want to be like what you descbribed as basically an uptight mom who is afraid to let the children do or read anything. What you expressed is helping me clarify my own position on this - and also made it clear to me that there is a huge difference in our initial reaction based on what you did pick up - how school takes place within our respective homes. I really have had a hard time sorting through it all and think I'm getting a better handle on things.
Willa and Ana: Thank you, I think you succinctly clarified my own qualms. Myth is a powerful language, symbology is important (akin to the Landscape with Dragons) and I really, really dislike mixed symbology where traditional symbols of evil are made into good, etc. Greek mythology is an important background to our Western and Christian literature and art and often they are deep perceptions of truth in some form though mixed with some distorted ideas that come with the fact that they were pre-Christian. These myths cannot be condemned as a whole - but individual parents must and should discern when or how to do this with their own children. A certain readiness is needed. There certainly is a danger of misreading the situation (ie introducing things too early because we don't think it will bother our children, or keeping things from them more out of our own fear than the truth) and Ana, you summarized the solution so perfectly - prayerful listening to the promptings of the Holy Spirit in the context of the grace of matrimony.
One thing this discussion brought out in the open to me is the difficulty of balancing different things depending on your style of teaching/ philosophy of teaching. Many of the classical education things that I have been exposed to advocate or have very strict criteria for immersing children early in these things. I see a different way with the glimpse into your home, - one in which I am much more comfortable. Macbeth: would you mind me PM you for some specific questions about some ideas I'm toying around with in terms of changing our approach. I don't want to divert this discussion but I feel that I have gained some insight from this discussion and from other things and I'd love a picture of how things work at your house - not to transplant it to my own, but to give me some practical hints of how I might be able to move in the direction I feel we need to go for ours - and yet am not sure how to make it work in practical terms. I don't want to overburden you time wise - and am very happy to wait for long times for responses. I also promise to have my dh read my PM posts to you (he generally can shorten them considerably as he is more to the point! )
Janet
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doris
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Wow, so much to ponder in this thread!
I won't get in to the nitty gritty of the discussion, but just share my recent experience. We're still very informal here given the ages of my children, but I was planning a couple of weeks looking at the Greek myths, and got a book out of the library: The Orchard Book of First Greek Myths. It's got 10 stories in so I thought it would last us a couple of weeks: 1 a day at lunchtime.
Not so! My dc *loved* them, and we got through the lot in 2 days. It's a good and (reasonably) gentle selection -- apart from the picture of the witches with 1 eye in the Medusa story, which my dd found terrifying. For my age of children, it was perfect. Fairly quick to read, pictures on every page, but definitely not twaddle.
And -- I decided to try again for a bit of dictation as dd has got out of the habit and CM says she's old enough now . She really didn't want to so I asked ds (4). He did a near-perfect narration! And what do you know? Not to be outdone, next time dd did a great narration of her own!
So they're working well for us. But I got another selection out of the library (the slightly more 'grown up' Orchard selection) and it didn't appeal as much at all. I'm not going to push it. My kids have enjoyed them as stories. We've discussed that the gods the Greeks believed in weren't real. My kids themselves made the link to Baal in the OT. But if they weren't in to them, found them frightening or just unengaging -- I'd leave it.
Just my .02 (as I'm learning to say  )
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marihalojen
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Elizabeth, you are right, there is a lot in this thread to ponder! Combined with the other Ancients thread active right now, wow!
Marianna and I just started a (so far) great read over dinner, The Golden Fleece: And the Heroes Who Lived Before Achilles by Padriac Colum which almost won the first Newbery Medal, I guess. We are enjoying it, there is a great lilt to the story making it fun to read aloud. I guess that happens when an Irish Poet writes prose! I did see that O'Brien's A Landscape with Dragons cited this book, anyone know if it was a good or bad reference? I still haven't gotten A Landscape with Dragons in at the library. I think they file most of my requests in the round file after I turn my back  but as my to be read pile by the bed isn't going down very fast I guess I'll give them a bit more time to get it in!
I also wanted to mention that reading several versions of a story not only is great for Venn Diagrams but also for varying levels of details. Pegasus by Marianna Meyer is the sweetest story ever. A good read with brilliant paintings that could safely be read to anyone. Pegasus by Jane Yolen on the other hand, does mention why Bellerophon is sent away, (queen hits on him and he refuses her in this version) still very mild overall but if you don't want to read about such a situation at all go with Meyer's version. Yolen's story is much more tragic overall continuing the story further with Bellerophon's desire to become immortal and his Zeus induced plunge to earth which ties in nicely with Yolen's chosen ending.
But if your overall goal is familiarity with the stories and the desire to have your child associate Pegasus with Bellerophon not Barbie, I think you can sort through some of these books to find what is appropriate for your particular children.
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Jan 24 2007 at 10:09am | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
Macbeth: would you mind me PM you for some specific questions about some ideas I'm toying around with in terms of changing our approach.
Janet |
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Feel free, Janet. And don't worry about editing .
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Mungo
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What an interesting discussion! Over on the LatinClassicalEd list we've been having a similar one, about the appropriateness of reading pagan literature. I think it does make sense to exercise discernment about a child's readiness for the myths. Unless you intend to have your child reading classical literature before middle school or even high school, I don't see any real imperative to study mythology before then.
I did want to offer some suggestions for how to approach these stories with elementary students. Again, I wouldn't push a sensitive child into them! But it may help students to have some context for the myths.
First, as many people know, there are some common themes in European mythologies from India all the way to Ireland - a sky god identified as "father"; twins; a war between two families of gods, a battle with a snake or sea serpent, etc. These stretch back to a common substratum of Indo-European culture. What's important for kids to know is that the Greeks (for example) did not invent their myths out of whole cloth. They inherited much from their cultural ancestors and then modified the myths to fit their current environment. If they study Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology, students can begin to recognize these common themes.
Second, the purpose of most myths is to explain some facet of human life, the environment, or tradition. They attempt to answer the perennial questions: Why is there suffering? Where does the rain come from? What are my obligations to my family, my neighbors, my tribe? The actions of the gods must be seen in that context.
Third, language matters. Unless you speak Greek, some of the resonances in myth may be lost. For example, the name Kronos sounds very much like the Greek word for time, Chronos. It is Time that, figuratively, swallows all things. That's why Saturn, Kronos's Roman counterpart, is usually portrayed as an old man, "Father Time." The war between the Titans and the Olympians is a battle between the brute forces of Earth (the Titans are Gaia's children) and the forces of civilization. Many of the more horrifying monsters are personifications of destructive natural or social forces. These details can help children put the violent or grotesque aspects of the myths into some context.
Fourth, it is not safe to assume that the myths were understood by all the ancients in the same way. Plato would have banned the poets from his ideal city (described in the Republic) because he felt they told unworthy tales about the gods. Most educated people did not take the myths literally; they understood them as metaphors or as "true falsehoods" - unreal stories that conveyed some truth about life. I'm sure there were many people who viewed them very simply and superstitiously, but they were not the authors you'll find on Great Books lists.
Fifth, the relationship between myth and actual Greek religious practice is not always clear. Some myths exist solely to explain some obscure religious tradition, the actual origins of which were long forgotten. (Plutarch has a whole book dedicated to explicating these historical oddities.) It is well worth reading a simple book on Greek religious practices alongside the myths. No, their practices weren't always palatable to modern sensibilities, but they were very similar to almost all ancient cultures, including the Hebrews.
Finally, it's important for students to understand that the ancient view of the gods was very different from our understanding of God. The gods of mythology were not "holy" in the sense of "all good" - they were simply another class of beings with different rules. Aristotle (iirc) says point-blank, "No one *loves* Zeus." The goal was not to become like them but to take one's proper, subordinate place in a relationship of mutual exchange. Humans provided offerings; the gods provided good weather, abundant crops, success in war, safe childbirth, etc. So we should not make the mistake of assuming that the behavior of the gods in the myths was set up as a model of acceptable behavior for the ancients themselves. "Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi." (What is permissible for Jove isn't permissible for cattle.) There are myths that specifically portray moral behavior for humans, such as the story of Baucis and Philemon, which praises hospitality, or the story of Arachne, which shows the foolishness of pride. But for the most part, the myths explain reality in figurative language, but they are not meant to be morality plays.
Again, my goal here is not to suggest that people force their children to read the myths before they're ready. Rather, I'm interested in "demythologizing myth" for parent-teachers. There is both more and less to the myths than many think: more background and historical context and less to be intimidated by!
-Drew Campbell
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4Real Forums : Living Literature
Topic: Greek Myths
