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teachingmom
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| Posted: May 08 2005 at 1:38pm | IP Logged
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juliecinci wrote:
| I have not read any of JPII's writings. |
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Hi Julie, I know you are an honest seeker from your posts on the topic. I really admire that in you. But, as you encouraged us to do, I am going to strenuously disagree with you on a few points.   When I read the sentence above, I almost gasped in surprise. I think you are really missing out in not including the writings of JPII in your growing knowledge of the Catholic faith and the Church. He is one of the great theologians of our time. (Many people would say the greatest.) If your graduate studies have not required reading anything by him yet, I'd recommend adding them on your own, to bring some balance.
juliecinci wrote:
| The central premise that really solidified my viewpoint has to do with the value placed on women if they are inadequate to fully represent Christ. How can God declare "woman" as "good" if there is something deficient in her biology to prevent her from being able to stand in the place of Christ in the ministry? Can biology really limit the working of God through a person? If so, then what does that say about women from God's point of view? |
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I'm afraid I don't have a lot of time because we are headed over to my parent's house to celebrate Mother's Day with my family soon. But I thought I throw out one particular thought related to what you wrote here. Let me pose a question that turns the tables a bit:
How can God declare "man" as "good" if there is something deficient in his biology to prevent him from being able to be a co-creator with God in bringing new life into the world through childbirth? It's an objective fact that man's biology is deficient in this area. Does that make him something less than woman from God's point of view? I think we would all agree that this is not so. For a man to complain because he cannot carry a child and give birth would be rather ludicrous.
Men and women are ontologically different in many ways. The biological ways happen to be obvious. But God created us to be different in ways that are unseen too. There is something about these differences that caused God's revelation to us to include a male priesthood. I am not offended because I cannot become a priest, just as my husband is not offended that he is not able to give birth to our children. Neither my husband nor I have less value because we are not able to fill these particular roles.
In fact, inadequacy to fill a role (to use your word above) is not a measure of value at all. If we look back to Genesis. God created Adam and saw that he was inadequate in some way. It was only in the creation of Eve that God's creation of the human family was complete. Does that make Eve have greater value than Adam? I have never heard anyone argue that. But why do so many people argue that a male priesthood signifies that women have less value?
Anyway, those are a few thoughts. You have definitely made me think, Julie. I've enjoyed pondering your ponderings. We have to head out the door, and I haven't even wrapped my mom's gift yet. I better go.
Happy Mother's Day, everyone!
__________________
~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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Willa
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| Posted: May 08 2005 at 1:56pm | IP Logged
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Hi Julie,
The Pope's encyclical on
The Dignity of Women speaks to some of the issues you raise.
I suppose the bottom line for me as far as a women priesthood is that Jesus, who respected women and involved them radically in His mission and ministry, did not ordain them. There are so many examples in the Gospels and in history that support all you say about women's capacity to do very many things. So I don't think that's quite the point, that the human race has now recognized something that was unknown before. It's true that Christianity has been a huge influence on the world in its emerging recognition of the dignity of women, and that as always, there were some very wrong-headed people pulling the wrong way, in this case the misogynists -- but the point is that God was ALWAYS conscious of these feminine abilities and capacities, and nevertheless chose 12 men to be ordained.
The Church has spoken on this: "... I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4)
I think that choice of words is interesting because it indicates that the Church does not consider herself to have the authority to change what Jesus set up. Again, that seems like the crux of the matter to me, that Jesus did it that way -- the only "answers" I can think of is that God Himself is chauvinist if He even exists, or that He was intimidated or bound by human mores and customs, or that the Bible does not accurately represent His point of view. All these raise deeper concerns with the faith than just the role of women or their ability to do things as well as men.
I know you made more points, particularly about what biological gender actually MEANS in the scheme of things, and I have been pondering them last night and this morning but I don't want to write a book and that is always my temptation in posting! it wouldn't be a very good book anyway since I'm still working through all the ramifications.
I completely agree that God is a Spirit who has no body and therefore transcends biological sexuality, though we are told to call Him Father. And that we are all made in His image, male and female, and that "...in Christ there is no male or female". Those are Christian givens. You say that we have different biological roles, which I also agree with.
I don't agree that emphasizing our biology as an intrinsic part of our beings minimizes our common heritage of humanity, or that biological or any other kind of "limits" imply "deficiency" or lack of value. That's where I think that misogynists and feminists both tend to undervalue the literally vital importance of the woman's biological role and the part it plays in her personhood and in God's scheme of things. I used to think of childbearing as "merely" biological and now I realize that this was part of a bigger disassociation between body and spirit, a sort of compartmentalization. I'm not saying that this is what you are doing, just that this was MY problem. I know there's more to be said on this and that your thoughts on this issue are part of a bigger picture but I wanted to reply at least in part and express some of my understanding of this issue for what it's worth!
Mother's Day blessings on all of you, and my prayers for our journey in charity and truth 
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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momwise
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teachingmom wrote:
| How can God declare "man" as "good" if there is something deficient in his biology to prevent him from being able to be a co-creator with God in bringing new life into the world through childbirth? It's an objective fact that man's biology is deficient in this area. Does that make him something less than woman from God's point of view? |
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That's putting it beautifully Irene. It is a secular, cultural value that puts men up as the standard to be equal to. That doesn't come from the Church; on the contrary. I second Irene's recommendation that any serious intellectual pursuit has to include the writings of JPII. His writings on women are radical in that they articulate the core truths about women like never before. Christopher West's book and tapes on the theology of the body are supposed to be fantastic.
Julie, I think you would really like the writings of St. Edith Stein, Dorothy Day and some of the other great Catholic female philosophers and writers of the 20th century.
I was one of the radical feminists by the time I was outof high school in 1978 (pro-life though). I was in the WAM club (Women against Men  ). It was JPII's papacy and trip to Denver that showed me part of my belief was in error. I've heard that from a lot of other women.
Come Holy Spirit!!
__________________
Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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tovlo4801
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Julie,
I've been thinking about you and your search for answers all day. I have so much respect for you in your honest struggle to make sense of things. I have not shared your particular concerns, but I remember vividly that period when I was trying to discern if the Catholic Church was where God wanted me to be. There were times I just broke down sobbing out of confusion and frustration. I'm so thrilled to see the women on this site coming to offer their gifts of information and alternative perspectives for you to consider. I want you to know that I'm offering what I can - prayer.
I'm hoping that this conversation continues to play out here. Your questions can be a gift to those of us who have never been forced to consider the things you are struggling with. So thank you for being so honest in your struggle and for allowing us to struggle along side you.
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Leonie
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My time is limited - and so are my words as ideas I want to express do not come out as clear as I wish.
I wanted to post a little, though, about feminism.
I guess I always used to think of myself as a feminist but then it came to me that it is less about feminism than it is about personhood. To reach one's full potential, one's calling, regardless of gender, is bigger than the usually more narrow confines of feminism. But to deny gender as being part of personhood, of who we are, is also a mistake.
Pope John Paul 11 wrote a lot about freedom - both personal and societal. Freedom is important - we are free in Christ - but Pope JP2 seemed to define freedom as acting responsibly, with information and formation, making informed choices for personal good and the good of the community. IOW, doing what one wants or thinks one wants or having what one wants is not necessarily freedom but may be a form of slavery - slavery to personal whim or wishes or one's own authority or gender, without a regard for other authorities and other roles and other vocations.
Anyway, I am unable to find time to link to some of Pope JP2's writings online, but I highly recommend reading some of his works, especially if you are interested in philosophy and theology and feminism and the concept of freedom. Pope JP2 's contributions to thses issues are too imporatnt to miss in our current day and age, regardless of one's faith, imo.
One book my older sons and I really enjoyed is Crossing the Threshold of Faith by Pope JP2.
You can also read the biography by George Weigel
( Witness to Hope) as this gives excerpts of Pope JP2's writings and can point you to his other works.
I feel inadequate to answer all your ponderings, Julie, but I hope that these living books and writings may be of some help.
Leonie in Sydney
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alicegunther
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Hello Julie and all,
I thought you would be interested in reading the full text of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, Pope John Paul II's apostolic letter on reserving priestly ordination to men alone. It is a beautiful and readable document outlining the reasons for this doctrine, and it provides a thorough response to challenges and concerns posed by some theologians.
There is not much I can add to the rationale provided by the Pope, although I did have one more thought on this issue. Sometimes, when I hear certain arguments posed by theologians, I feel that their emphasis is misplaced. They are concerned with authority within the Church hierarchy and criticize the Church's teaching as demeaning to women in that it prevents them from assuming positions of power within the Church. These particular arguments forget the teaching of Jesus that "many who are first will be last, and the last will be first." We do not think as God does, and God loves those who humble themselves. Although Jesus did not ordain women, he appeared to Mary Magdelene before even his own apostles. This is an example of how God elevates those the world might perceive as less important or powerful. We must always remember that earth is not our true home--Heaven is. Our dignity before God cannot be measured by the offices or positions of authority we are permitted to hold while on earth. These things are passing away.
Oh, and just one more thing on a related topic. The media sometimes portrays the Church as a male-dominated institution that keeps women down, but I believe the exact opposite. Not only do I see the Church as pro-woman, I see it as the *only* institution in the world that is truly in favor of women. In all her doctrine, whether on abortion, birth control, the sanctity of marriage, or a host of other "feminine" issues, the Church provides teachings and explanations that are beautiful, emphasize the unique dignity of women, and prevent us from both spiritual and physical harm. The more I learn about the reasons behind the Church's teachings, the more I recognize the existence of Eternal Truth.
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Love, Alice
mother of seven!
    
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Brew yourself a cup of tea, and come for a visit!
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Karen E.
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juliecinci wrote:
When you talk about accepting infallible teachings, it is more the interpretations of the teachings I'm getting at. Not all theologians accept the same explanations behind the virgin birth, resurrection, real presence, the trinity, how salvation is accomplished and so on. |
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Julie,
When you say that it's the interpretations of the teachings that you are getting at,I think it's important that we clarify what the Catholic Church means by "infallible teaching." An infallible teaching is one that has already been defined by the Church and is not open to further interpretation.
Perhaps it could best be compared to a more basic definition of Christianity. One could say, "Well, I consider myself a Christian, but I don't believe that Jesus is God." In such a case, by one's own definition, one is not Christian, because he is not accepting the most basic tenet of the Christian faith.
Similarly, one couldn't say, "I consider myself Catholic but I don't believe that the Church has any teaching authority." Believing in the Church's teaching authority is inherent to being Catholic, it's a basic tenet.
Does that make sense?
Please let me know if I've misunderstood the point you were making!
And thanks for letting me know you're not sick of me.
__________________
God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Karen E.
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| Posted: May 08 2005 at 5:59pm | IP Logged
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alicegunther wrote:
There is not much I can add to the rationale provided by the Pope, although I did have one more thought on this issue. Sometimes, when I hear certain arguments posed by theologians, I feel that their emphasis is misplaced. They are concerned with authority within the Church hierarchy and criticize the Church's teaching as demeaning to women in that it prevents them from assuming positions of power within the Church. These particular arguments forget the teaching of Jesus that "many who are first will be last, and the last will be first." |
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Alice,
I was just starting another note to Julie, and you've said so much here that I was going to say! I have a couple of other things to add, but loved the point you made here.
__________________
God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Karen E.
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| Posted: May 08 2005 at 6:22pm | IP Logged
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juliecinci wrote:
I have not read any of JPII's writings. |
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Oh, Julie, you must! No study of feminism in the Church is complete without reading the words of this incredible man.
The feminist theologians you named place a very great emphasis on the idea of "power" in the Church. They have a very worldly view of the priesthood that focuses on "who gets to do what." The true and spiritual nature of the priesthood is that it is the role of a servant. Priests are servants of Christ, and the pope is the "servant of the servants of Christ."
You said:
"The central premise that really solidified my viewpoint has to do with the value placed on women if they are inadequate to fully represent Christ. How can God declare "woman" as "good" if there is something deficient in her biology to prevent her from being able to stand in the place of Christ in the ministry?"
The Church doesn't believe that there is anything deficient in female biology ... she believes quite the opposite (as I'm sure you know, the Church is referred to in feminine terms -- Christ is the Bridegroom, the Church is His bride). Female biology was necessary to bring about the Incarnation. According to the Church, the greatest and most revered human being in all of human history is a woman -- the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Another area of JPII's writings you might be interested in would be his writings on the Theology of the Body. In these writings the Church makes it clear that women, and the sexual act and the procreative power of marriage are sacred things, to be held in the highest esteem.
You said:
"Though Christ was male on earth (by necessity Christ had to be male or female), the Real Presence today, the God who is with us, transcends gender."
Yes, absolutely. No argument there.
You said,"God is available to all and empathizes with all. The capacity to transmute the divine must be resident in both male and female if we are bearers of the image of God."
Yes, again, absolutely. "Male and female He created them," we are told in Genesis.
But it's important to keep in mind what being made "in the image of God" means.
God is a supernatural being with an intellect and a will. He made us with an intellect and a will, too. That is what makes us unique in all of creation. It is our intellect and our will that renders us "in the image and likeness of God." It has nothing to do with the images of male and female.
You said,
"Mary Daly says, 'If God is male, then male is God.' I know that sounds harsh. But it is something to sort of roll around in your head for a bit and compare with the facts of history.
I've read Mary Daly and I find her unconvincing.
We all know that God is not "male" in the sense that He's an old, bearded man sitting in Heaven calling the shots and oppressing women. But, He has given us particular images, relationships and symbols that help us to understand His nature.
The Trinity -- Father/Son/Holy Spirit -- is reflected on earth in the marriage relationship (again, reading up on the Theology of the Body is going to explain this so much better than I can.) Man + woman + marital act = a new being. That is a mirror of the Love of the Trinity. Marriage is a sacred and both man and woman are necessary.
Well, I'm out of time. My Mother's Day dinner awaits.
I know I've only begun to touch on these things, but this will have to do for now!
Happy Mother's Day!
__________________
God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Bridget
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Dear Julie,
If you are interested in yet more reading you might try the late Jesuit Priest, Fr. John Hardon. He was a pre-eminent theologion, a prolific writer, spiritual advisor to Mother Theresa, and a huge supporter of homeschooling.
This site has amassed much of his work and categorized it making it easy to find your subject of interest.
God Bless you in your search.
Fr. Hardon
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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mary
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alicegunther wrote:
| Oh, and just one more thing on a related topic. The media sometimes portrays the Church as a male-dominated institution that keeps women down, but I believe the exact opposite. Not only do I see the Church as pro-woman, I see it as the *only* institution in the world that is truly in favor of women. In all her doctrine, whether on abortion, birth control, the sanctity of marriage, or a host of other "feminine" issues, the Church provides teachings and explanations that are beautiful, emphasize the unique dignity of women, and prevent us from both spiritual and physical harm. The more I learn about the reasons behind the Church's teachings, the more I recognize the existence of Eternal Truth. |
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I have enjoyed reading this thread and just wanted to chime in here. My dh and I were just talking about how we thought the Catholic church is much more pro-woman and family than the Protestant. We were wondering if this pro-woman atmosphere comes from our reverence to Mary. It's interesting isn't it that Protesants do not have this reverence, and they are much less concerned with breastfeeding, abortion and birth control (issues that greatly impact women).
Protestants also demonstrate less church authority, but much more individual authority, especially from the man. When I think of Protestant families, I think of the strict "spoil the rod, spare the child" phrase or the emphasized deferment of wives to their husbands. So, while you will see Protestant women in church roles, are they really considered equal? I don't know. As a Catholic woman, I consider myself a counter part to my husband; thus we fulfill different roles and we both bend to the church's authority.
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BrendaPeter
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Thank you so much to everyone for so many beautiful comments but thanks especially to Julie for starting such an insightful thread. Julie, you probably don't realize how educational this has been for many of us who use these boards!
Just a few little thoughts...
mary wrote:
| We were wondering if this pro-woman atmosphere comes from our reverence to Mary. |
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When we study and understand the role of Our Lady, it is truly awesome to comprehend that the one fully HUMAN being God choose to elevate in such a way was a woman. I do think that is a huge part of it. As a Catholic woman, my daily motto has become "What Would Mary Do?" This has caused me pause on numerous occasions. I agree with Alice in that the Catholic Church is the most pro-woman religion.
mary wrote:
| So, while you will see Protestant women in church roles, are they really considered equal? I don't know. As a Catholic woman, I consider myself a counter part to my husband; thus we fulfill different roles and we both bend to the church's authority. |
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I believe it's a case of semantics. Men and women are equal BUT different. We always seem to think that equal means the same, but men and women are truly different and, as such, we must rejoice in those differences.
As my husband and I grow in our faith, we have both discovered that a huge part of the journey is simply our return to authentic masculinity and femininity. In our modern androgynous society, we, as woman, are "out of touch" with the feminine. One book I found very helpful in this area is Alice Von Hildebrand's "The Privilege of Being a Woman."
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Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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Robin
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I just want to second that recommendation of Dr. Alice Von Hildebrand. I recently listened to a cd of a talk she gave here in Lafayette, LA and remember that it was very good. One thing she mentioned was about how there is a veil over a woman's womb (I forget the medical term for it) and this veil serves no purpose. And she went on to compare it to the veil that covered the Holy of Holies in the Jewish temple and said how a veil has always been used to show sacredness. Awesome!
I also know a very good and intellectual priest from Louisiana who did his Doctrinal Thesis on The Theology of the Body. He has a weblog and is open to receiving emails. Some of his "humor" has been shocking to my sensibilities in the past, but I know that he's trying to pull in the young people of today and gently catechize them over the internet. His website is at http://britius.stblogs.org/.
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Robin Dupre
"If we become what God intended for us to become, we will set the world on fire." ~ St. Catherine of Siena
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Taffy
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I also would like to thank Julie for starting this thread. Julie, your concerns that you raised are issues that I thought I had resolved but hadn't. Thanks to all of you who posted all of the helpful info. I haven't read all of it yet but what I have read has really cleared things up for me personally. It even entered into a discussion dh and I had last night that started over something our priest had mentioned in his homily yesterday (unfortunately, I don't remember what it was ).
I was especially struck by the comment regarding how God and Jesus view positions of "power" in our life. I had always elevated the priests and church hierarchy as "better than" the rest of us and I guess that's why I was bothered about women's seeming inequality in the church. Being reminded about what Jesus told his apostles who wished to gain positions of power in God's kingdom changed my viewpoint and in a way, helps me to see church authorities as more "human". Just because women are not afforded similar titles to men in the church does not diminish or affect our value to the church's spiritual work. God sees us as equal and that's what really matters after all.
Personally, the reason I decided to return to the church despite my "grumblings" has a lot to do with the church's stand on abortion, child rearing, marriage, etc. I guess that I have more trust in a church that seeks to teach the truth, always, regardless of popular opinion.
Again, thanks
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Susan
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MaryM
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Robin wrote:
| I just want to second that recommendation of Dr. Alice Von Hildebrand. |
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And of particular interest might be Women and the Priesthood co-written with Peter Kreeft (unfortunately out of print but copies are around). Peter Kreeft has some excellent on-line presentions that can be dowwnloaded. I'll see if I can find them.
Another suggested resource
Women in the Priesthood? by Manfred Hauck.
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Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
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juliecinci
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Wow!
What a lot of reading I have ahead of me!
I thank all of you for taking your time to give me your perspectives. I am adding JP2 to my reading list now. I would love to have read his writings before my trip to Italy this summer when I will be with one of my Catholic aunts.
I'll check out the links and other names you mentioned. One of my aunts wrote a wonderful book on Dorothy Day so I thank you for reminding me of her.
I appreciate the generosity of your comments given that I am coming from a very different place. I won't debate back and forth but would rather simply explore the ideas you all posted and then if I have follow-up questions/thoughts, I'll post those in another thread.
Thanks again.
Julie
__________________
Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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alicegunther
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juliecinci wrote:
| One of my aunts wrote a wonderful book on Dorothy Day so I thank you for reminding me of her. |
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My goodness, Julie, you are certainly a family of authors! Please let us know the name and title of your aunt's book. I would love to read it.
__________________
Love, Alice
mother of seven!
Cottage Blessings
Brew yourself a cup of tea, and come for a visit!
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juliecinci
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Just saw this:
Alice, the title of my aunt's book is The
Moral Vision of Dorothy Day.
Also, I just read through this entire thread again and looked up the various links. Thanks again for all of your input. I may start another thread when I have time.
__________________
Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Coming to faith
