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tracym
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| Posted: Dec 28 2006 at 7:58am | IP Logged
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Dawn,I just wanted to chime in with that I understand what you are going through my oldest DS(9) is just like that. What ususally starts off as a monor problem escalates into some huge thing where instead of being in a little trouble for some minor infraction it ends up like you have described. He is also worse with me than anyone else(although he doesn't seem to listen to others). I agree about you needing to keep your emotions in check. That is a huge problem for me and I have been majorly working on it. Also my dh has finally stepped up to get more involved in doing things with him. He reads to him at night now and checks his schoolwork everyday. We have been doing this for about 3 weeks now and have seen a difference. We are working hard. I have read many of the above titles also and they were all great resoureces. We are also struggling because I am trying to figure out if there is an underlying learning disability also becuase he is way below levels for writing and spelling and somewhat for reading but thatis a different subject. Good luck.
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Tracy M- mom to Allen 12, Laura 9, Joeseph 7, and Anthony 4
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Anne McD
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 4:04pm | IP Logged
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Dawn,
Please let me chime in with the "you're not alone" chorus! I found this thread last night as I searched the boards for something on discipline. My 5yo DS is a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He'll be sweet and loving and offering to do the dishes one moment, and then off in a rage the next. We've also found that compounding punishment on top of punishment to be futile, but I take his disobedience so personally that I get charged up!  I'm going to look into the books reccomended here. I mentioned to my husband the If-Then chard that is on Titus 2 and I'm going to try making one myself. I'm going to try doing a corresponding good actions chart as well, so it doesn't come off as "Jesus only has something to say when you misbehave . . . ". I'll let you know how that goes, but in the meantime, I'm comforted in knowing I'm not the only one!
Anne
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doris
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 4:46pm | IP Logged
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I'm late joining in on this but my dd 6 is a little bit like this sometimes.
I think being the eldest doesn't help and feeling like you're always having to battle for attention. We have 'downstairs night' once a week which means that she comes downstairs after her bath, for about half an hour of one-to-one time doing whatever she wants -- read alouds, puzzles, games, whatever. She loves it, it's great for her behaviour and if she really misbehaves we can threaten to take it away. That is the worst possible thing for her and it has only happened once or twice.
Also -- exercise? Do you think your dd might need to work off some more energy?
Btw I havne't read 123 Magic but have heard about it from friends. We do modify it slightly here in that we count to 5. Gives them longer to decide to comply!
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Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
Frabjous Days
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Jan 06 2007 at 5:01pm | IP Logged
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Hi Dawn! I hope things are going a little better for you. I have been there, done that, and been there, done that again! In fact, there are days we are still there doing that.
My oldest has been a challenge from the start. He is 15 now. I remember when he was little (6-8) and so defiant. I could not control him, could not get him to go to his room, sit in a chair, etc. We read Dobson and used a lot of physical punishment. That was a mistake, at least for his temperment. He still resents it, especially because we learned from our mistakes and do not deal with the other children the same way. He thinks we just like the others better! 
I know you have had several resources recommended and I don't want to overload you. I will say that a book that really helped me back then is "Parenting with Love and Logic". It really helps you formulate appropriate consequences for behavior, and at the same time helps you lessen your emotional response. One example is a child who will not go to her room for you. When your dh gets home, you can matter-of-factly tell him the Mary Beth wouldn't go to her room when you asked her to. Dh then says something like "Mary Beth, it looks like you need practice going to your room. I want you to practice it now." He can then have her walk to her room and back several times before she can sit down to dinner with you. No one gets emotional, no one gets yelled at. It is treated simply as cause and effect.
Another great resource is Dr. Ray. I just bought his DVD and CD set. He is very funny, which is therapeutic in itself. But I think he brings misbehavior down to a very basic level and reminds you that you are the parent. Not so you can "boss the kids around" but so you don't got bogged down with second-guessing and over-analysing.
Good luck.Remember, she may be your oldest but she is just a little one still. She needs to know you like her, not just love her. This life with so many little ones can really get overwhelming. So give yourself and her time to relax and enjoy each other again. 
All this advice from a woman who has been at the computer too long, and whose children are beating each other with over-sized chess pieces! 
Off to take my own advice!
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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ElizLeone
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| Posted: Jan 27 2007 at 10:33pm | IP Logged
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I realize this is an old thread, but I just have to say thank you to those of you who gave all this great advice in this thread. I, too, have the child described in these posts, and I came upon the thread because I was desperately searching (under the key word "discipline") for some help in the area of my 10-year-old daughter's disobedience and disrespect. I am so grateful for the book suggestions and the godly tomatoes site. I will certainly be checking these out.
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stefoodie
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| Posted: June 04 2007 at 4:26pm | IP Logged
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Resurrecting this thread....
Dawn and others, how are your children doing? What solutions have you found to be best for you?
I filed this thread away in my head for when I really need it, and today I feel like I *really* need it.
My 8-yo is much like all the kids you describe here. I am at my wits' end figuring out how to deal with him. Before this child I've been pretty happy with who I am as a parent -- my 2 older children, though there have been a few problems here and there, are growing up to be fine people. When my dh and I look at them, we sometimes feel like giving ourselves a pat on the back. The 8-yo is a different story. We are so worried about him! And most days I ask myself, "What am I doing so wrong with this one?"
I am off to order/request the books that you listed here. A couple I've read in years past, and I even got the If/Then chart several years ago -- we tried using it but it just didn't work for us. I probably should make our own version. But something has to change and the cycle has to stop. I am *so* getting tired of this, and I hate to think of what our current state might do to him long term if we don't change our course.
Would appreciate any prayers too. I am praying for all of yours. Thanks!
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stef
mom to five
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jugglingpaynes
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| Posted: June 04 2007 at 5:46pm | IP Logged
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First, sorry this is so long.
Every child is so different! I don't believe it has anything to do with birth order, I think if you have enough kids, eventually you get at least one that tests you. I think my youngest would try the patience of a saint sometimes. A few observations I've made from dealing with her and from what I've read here:
I use the 1-2-3 count. I've done it with all three, and I believe that my second and third learned to count to 3 much younger because of it.  It's important to be consistent with it. Tell them what the consequences will be and then count slowly in a LOW voice. I didn't notice anyone mention the pitch of the voice. Sometimes a lower or quieter voice makes the child understand that you mean business and will follow through unaffected by their actions.
Another interesting thing I've noticed is that my daughter will lose it if she misunderstands me. She's always had a harder time listening than her sibs. I've always tried to get eye contact and have them repeat what I say, but my youngest will cover her ears and turn away. This is where the patience comes in.  If I can quietly say some "I" sentences (Mommy feels upset when you...)it sometimes gets past the barrier and she softens.
I also try to remember to listen to HER. Sometimes I misinterpret what she wants and that causes the tantrum. In that case, I apologize and let her know I will try to make sure I understand next time.
Sometimes I don't diffuse the tantrum in time and I just have to do my best to keep my cool and let her work it out. I'm not perfect. I've lost it to the point of yelling or a spank on the bottom. If this happens, I do make a point of talking with her when I calm down and letting her know that I regret losing my temper, but sometimes mommies get upset too, just like kids.
We're currently working on "letting it go." 
Peace and Laughter, (because you need a sense of humor about this)My prayers are with you!
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Cristina
(mom of MayBabies dd15,ds12,dd6)
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Dawnie
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| Posted: July 31 2007 at 6:15pm | IP Logged
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Stef,
I am so sorry, I didn't see that you had posted on this thread!
I typed out a big long post about how things were going a few months ago, then me 3yod hit a button and deleted it before I coudl post it.
Here goes again.
Dh and I both read 1-2-3 Magic in December and started using it in late December with all the kids. At first, I had to carry my 8yod kicking, hitting, and spitting to her room for the time-out, then I had to hold the door closed the entire time. After about a month, I didn't have to hold the door closed, but she was still being physically violent when I tried to take her to time-out, even after consistently increasing her time-out to 15 min when she did that.
My dh made a chart for her with her worst behaviors on it. It had "No hitting, kicking, spitting, or trying to hurt," "No name-calling," and "No threatening" and something else I can't remember right now. Each day, she earned a counting chip for each item on the chart if she got through the day without doing it. She could redeem the chip for 5 min. of computer time (playing games or watching a movie). The first week we did this, her behavior improved dramatically. There was MUCH LESS physical violence from her. It still happened 1-3 times a week, but before I was dealing with it almost every day. The first week on the chart, she saved up her chips until she had enough to watch a movie that was 2 1/2 hours long! After a few weeks, we got lax about the chart and we saw a lot of backsliding in her behavior. We went back to the chart again and it got better.
Recently, I realized that the thing she gets counted to 3 for most often is pestering/yelling at/hitting her sisters. I thought that if we put those specific behaviors on her chart, maybe we would kind of nip the problems (of parental disrespect) in the bud. I'll let you know if it helps. We only started the new chart today.
I also started taking her to a counselor. I think there is more than just a simple discipline problem going on here. We've only had one session with the counselor so far. We have another tomorrow...I've written about my concerns with counseling here. In spite of my concerns, I have high hopes for the counseling. I know it has helped my husband and I A LOT.
Another thing I've found that helps is sending her to her room to cool off when I see that she is starting to get angry (raising her voice). I tell her to go calm down and come out when she can speak to me in a respectful voice.
I also found, once we started using the counting chips, that taking away the chips was a pretty effective punishment. Also, taking away chips eliminates the problem of having to carry a 45 lb. kicking and screaming child to time-out and then hold the door closed the entire time (that still happens sometimes). At times, though, she's got to go to time-out just to be removed from a situation so she can have time to calm down and become more rational. I'd like to move to more of a points system, where she earns chips that she can redeem for privileges when her behavior is good and she loses chips when she breaks rules. She seems to be a lot more motivated by a reward than by threat of punishment.
This kid just requries a lot from me. My other kids are a lot easier to discipline. I don't know if I'm just more experienced now and do a better job with them or if Mary Beth really does have some kind of diagnosable behavioral/psychological problem, or if I have just REALLY screwed up with her. 
I could write a lot more...I'll try to get back to this later...I have LOTS of thoughts rolling around in my head right now...
Dawn
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Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
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dawn2006
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| Posted: Aug 24 2007 at 10:09pm | IP Logged
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Dawn,
I accidentally came across this thread but your dd reminds me a lot of my oldest. He's 5 and I'm only now realizing, as my younger two are shaping their personalities, that my oldest responds much more aggressively, emotionally, and severely than my others. So, this thread was timely for me. I'm going to check out the Explosive Child book, I think. Also, I joined the local Attachment Parenting International group in my town this last December. I've learned a lot about parenting more peacefully and effectively. It's been a great support group.
BTW...we've met before!! I live in TX now but I was attending LLL meetings when I lived in Wichita after my second was born in Dec '03. A woman named Lorna was a leader of the meetings and I think you were (are??) a leader, too. I remember bringing you a meal after your third baby was born: chicken with potatoes and maybe green beans, too?? Hope the potatoes were cooked all the way...
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Dawn Farias | wife to Ariel | mom to Gabriel 9, Daniel 7, Elizabeth 5, and Michael 3 | blogger at Be Absorbed | native Texan but currently living near Seattle
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Topic: Help me understand this child
