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MaryM
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Kelly wrote:
Among our group, how many of us still have immediate family (siblings/parents/aunts&uncles/grandparents) on farms?
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I have an aunt and uncle that live on what was my grandparents farm still but their children won't take over the farm when they are no longer there. It will be lost to the family. And they don't live anywhere near us so my kids have only been there a few times and never for very long. A big part of the appeal of the farm for us was sharing it with our cousins. There are no cousins or young children there anymore so the experience would be very different.
My parents live in the country in an agricultural area so that is the closest my kids get to the farm experience. My husband's parents lived in the same community and actually still farmed until retiring and moving to California 8 years ago. My oldest two have some memories of time spent on their farm.
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MaryM
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| Posted: May 13 2005 at 11:11pm | IP Logged
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Thinking more about the farm reminded me of something else we spent a lot of time doing that is taboo now - that is blowing things up with firecrackers. Lots of science in blasting tin cans!
We also rode cows (well my country cousins did - I watched!), played baseball in the pastures with dried cow pies for bases, told scary stories about the bull and never wore red around his pen, built dams and floated things in the irrigation ditches, set syphon tubes for irrigation with my uncles, pretended to drive the tractors, finding and playing with the kittens that would be born and hidden around the farm, hiding in the corn fields and making secret paths.
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Mary M. in Denver
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soodow
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I grew up in CT. Our house was across the field from my grandmother's farm (where my dad grew up). My sister now own's the farm.
I remember(summertime):
-lived in the country but plenty of children to play with - 3 brothers+3sisters
-walking to "the woods" and playing for hours (really a little island of trees)
-walking to the farm to visit grammy
-playing cowboys and indians
-hide and seek after dark
-making a clubhouse under the cellar stairs -after throwing all the toys stored there out into the cellar!!
-running under the irrigation spray in the potato fields on HOT summer days
-digging up potatos after "they" harvested
-weeding the family garden
-playing in the barn at "the farm"
-climbing the willow tree
-collecting bugs
-summers in NH - swimming/canoeing/hiking/walks to the marina for penny candy!
-riding bikes all over town
-caring for a baby duck (Quacky)
-caring for a hurt racoon (Raccy)
It's fun to remember, I didn't think I had that much memory anymore!
Sue in NH 
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MacBeth
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Ok...I am hoping more folks have the book by now. I think we can now look at some of the issues that Louv brings up in the next chapter (2).
He outlines 5 ways in which the way our children view nature is changing or has changed from the way past generations have view it:
1. A severance of the public and private minds of our food's origins.
2. A dissapearing line between machines, humans and other animals.
3. An increased intellectual understanding of our relationships with other animals.
4. The invasion of our cities by wild animals.
5. The rise of a new kind of suburban form.
In the next post, I'll start with #1...
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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MacBeth
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A severance of the public and private minds of our food's origins.
Unlike the frontier days, most of us do not grow our own food, or slaughter our own animals (Viv, you call someone, don't you?). Do your children know where the meat on the table comes from? Is it necessary for them to know it?
John Taylor Gatto once calculated the amount of energy to ship a head of iceburg lettuce from California to NY. It was some kind of insane amount of energy, especially considering the negligable nutritional value in iceburg lettuce, but who amoung us thinks about such things?
Try this...take the time to check the tiny stickers on the produce you buy, and see where it comes from. Ask your kids if they know what kind of animal their meat comes from.
If you hunt or fish (or if a family member does), do you eat what you shoot or catch? Do your kids participate in any part of the harvesting of food, whether from a garden or from the wild?
How important is it that we know the source of food?
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
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lilac hill
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We take the steers and chickens to the butcher but there is still plenty of meat handling, at least enough for me. The girls have all gone to the butcher with the chickens. After cool down there is the recleaning, trimming, and packaging of the meat before freezing. Although they do not help with this process, they witness it and pick up my regualar chores when I am doing this.
I like the vegetable garden, it is my place if quiet so I am happy to plant, weed, and harvest without help. The girls do pick berries for the freezer. They have a real appreciation just how much effort goes into a blueberry pie or blueberry muffins.
We have also clammed in the sand water of RI and Maggie and I have fished and cleaned our fish for lunch. But the fishing was a one time experience.
Viv
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Viv
Wife to Rick (7/83), Mom to dd#1(6/87), dd#2(1/90), and dd#3(6/94) in central PA.
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Marybeth
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I am getting this book for my dh for Father's Day. I plan to read it too at some point. I will be excited to read the posts as they come in on the thread. I am not a nature person, but dh and our ds are so it gets me outside in every season. My parents didn't encourage me to get outside when I was young. They allowed me to wimp out and just read in my room. My Mom always tells the story that the neighbors came outside to see if I was ok b/c I was hysterically crying b/c she was making me weed!!!! 
Another time my girlfriends told me they were taking me kayaking and hiking for my b-day. They then were laughing at my expression. They took me to the mall instead!!!
My 8 year old niece taught me how to plant flowers this past weekend. She loves getting her hands in the dirt and was playing with worms. Needless to say I had on gloves!!
I really enjoy the outdoors more through my ds' eyes. Does this make sense? Marybeth
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Kelly
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I'm not sure that I agree with Louv that being less connected to Nature makes one more insensitive to it and that being MORE connected with Nature makes one more sensitive and responsible...Actually, it seems to me that the more people live in a cyberworld, or a world of virtual reality thru movies and computer games and what not, the more they are removed from the land, and food origins,then the MORE concerned they are with animal rights and environmentalism. These same people often tend to be separated from family networks, safe in a urban/suburban world, media-educated, not really clued into what the rest of the world---the third world--- endures (and the real context in which it occurs, not the CNN spin) and the mass of humanity. I have noticed that in places like Africa, where my husband works, life/death/slaughtering pigs to eat/bulldozing a virgin forest for a place to live, and so on are all part of survival and are taken much more in stride. And the great majority of these folk live much more "in" Nature than Westerners do. Certainly Nature there is not regarded as the Sacred Cow that Westerners have made it. I suppose that when you see people dying of AIDS all around you,or living very marginally, you kind of tend to have a No Big Deal attitude about Nature. Likewise, in China, where the Chinese eat just about everything that moves (according to Paul Theroux, who spent a year there---I have not done field research there!), there is little regard to Nature among the Common Man. On a personal note, I well remember going into a Chinese store when I lived in China Town (in Canada) and watching these old Chinese ladies hurl living turtles, with their claws taped, into their carts--CLUNCK-- followed by living crabs, etc. Here, the animal rights people would be all over them like a cheap suit for that kind of thing! To my mind, it's almost as though being immersed in Real LIfe causes people to be much more ennured to Natural "sensitivities". The more separated people are from Real Life, the more likely they are to be squeamish about killing chickens to eat, or slaughtering pigs or whatever, true. But these are the same people, I think, who are more likely to be marching around with placards or being environmental activists. On a controversial note, I have also noted (and this might be inflammatory, I hope not) that most pro-abortion people are ardent environmentalists. Hmmm, what does that say????
I hope this makes sense, I'm rambling, trying to think, type and talk with my children all at once, oh, and finish with doing the Dinner Thing! I may have to ponder this one a little more...
Kelly in FL
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Wendi DeGrandpr
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I don't think that people in third world countries don't necessarily care about nature or their environment. Reality for them is survival - daily survival. The country of Haiti has been virtually deforested. Trees were cut and made into charcoal and sold. Sold for money to buy food for families. Nobody thought about the erosion that would occur and the fact that all the soil which was carried into the ocean would push back the fishing shoals about 20 miles, to the point that they could only be reached by boat and that boats are owned by the rich. The rich get the fish and the poor can't afford to buy it. My point is simply that if they had known about the consequences I am not sure if they would have done anything differently. When "if" you are going to feed your family today is the issue other things lose their temporal importance. Survival.
Monarch butterflies are losing their overwintering sites in Mexico because people are cutting the trees and selling them. Do we assume they don't care about the decline of the butterflies? No, they just care more about feeding their children today.
I want my children to grow up respecting the earth that God created and all of the resources He has given us. I pray that they learn use resources wisely and not waste them. In this country IMHO people should be less concerned with pointing their environmental fingers at those in the world who have NOTHING, and look at our own culture, where farm land and forest is turned into 4000 sq ft houses and three car garages, where enough food is thrown away every day to feed a third world country, where our children grow up picky about the food they eat instead of being thankful God has provided a meal, where we disgard things simply becuase they are no longer new or in style regardless of the life left in them. Don't even get me going on the chemicals sprayed on the food that is grown for us to eat and which is fed to the animals we in turn eat. 
I pray that I never forget the lessons I learned from the people in Haiti. Joy among extreme poverty - and here there tends to be such misery among abundance. It is hard - the longer I am away the easier it is to get lazy and think ... "if only I had a" .....
I think it is extremely important for people to know where their food comes from. Kids should know their burger didn't just appear at the market in it's package and that apples and cucumbers don't really grow with all that wax on them. 
We are slowly making strides toward sustainability as we try to "grow" a small farm. We have a large garden (for veggies and berries), laying hens, we buy our beef from a friend, we raise chickens for meat and I trade eggs with a neighbor for goats milk.
Sorry if this borders on "off topic" - I really think it all plays into the big picture.
God Bless,
Wendi
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Kelly
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| Posted: May 24 2005 at 8:16am | IP Logged
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Wendi DeGrandpr wrote:
| ..."I don't think that people in third world countries don't necessarily care about nature or their environment. Reality for them is survival - daily survival. The country of Haiti has been virtually deforested. Trees were cut and made into charcoal and sold. Sold for money to buy food for families. Nobody thought about the erosion that would occur and the fact that all the soil which was carried into the ocean would push back the fishing shoals about 20 miles, to the point that they could only be reached by boat and that boats are owned by the rich. The rich get the fish and the poor can't afford to buy it. My point is simply that if they had known about the consequences I am not sure if they would have done anything differently. When "if" you are going to feed your family today is the issue other things lose their temporal importance. Survival.... In this country IMHO people should be less concerned with pointing their environmental fingers at those in the world who have..." |
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I agree, Wendy, and despite my incoherent ramblings, that was part of the point I was trying to make. In Africa, when people are struggling to survive (not struggling to find a place to store all their extra stuff!), Nature isn't really something they sit around worrying about. No finger pointing involved here at all, I certainly don't think it means that they don't "care" about Nature! They just don't have the luxury to "care" FOR it, they're trying to survive. In fact, most Africans I know appreciate Nature quite a lot,and are much happier with much less "stuff" than Westerners. As you said, joy in the midst of poverty---as compared to our oft-found misery in the midst of richness. It seems to me that worrying about environmentalism really is a luxury that we have in the rich West, and to some extent our responsability, as well. In the book, Louv argues that the more people are removed from Nature, the less they seem to care about it, which is why he goes to such lengths to argue for Nature Education and programs that put people back into nature. I don't agree with this analysis completely. Instead of arguing that the less people are around Nature, the less they care, I would say that there are three groups here in the US & Europe: a consumer-driven, pop-culture dominated crowd who doesnt give a hang about anything much (the crowd Louv was talking about, I think); a less consumer-driven group, still media-educated, that is more concerned about the environment---in fact, that makes Environmentalism their religion; and a third group, less consumer-driven, NOT media educated, not pop-dominated, but God-centered (and generally, pro-life), that sees the importance of Nature as God's gift, and the importance of our stewardship thereof. I guess this is all to say that I think Louv is being simplistic to say that the farther we are from the land, the less we care for it. "Care" has many forms. You might "care" for something, but still mistreat it!
Oops, I've got to get kids moving. Thanks for your insight into Haiti's situation. In so many ways, it parallels what I was talking about in Africa.
Kelly in FL
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MichelleW
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We live on a little farm in the woods. We've had chickens and a large vegetable garden since we moved here, but last year was the first time we raised and butchered our own pigs. I have to say that since the kids knew the animals and helped care for them and know without a doubt where that meat on the table came from, they waste a lot less of it. They are very conscious and respectful of the food on the table. They only take what they will eat and they eat everything on their plates.
This is also true of peanutbutter and jam sandwiches. They help me make the bread. They helped pick the berries and process them, they would never think of taking a bite and then throwing away the rest of the sandwich. They have friends who do this and it is always a shock to them.
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momwise
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Kelly wrote:
| On a controversial note, I have also noted (and this might be inflammatory, I hope not) that most pro-abortion people are ardent environmentalists. Hmmm, what does that say???? |
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I think many pro-aborts are as much population controllers and eugenicists as they are enviromentalists. The latter term is much more press friendly 
Do you think that among the 5 points from chapter 2 should be included the loss of a sense of God's role in creation? Maybe that would account for a less than attentive attitude toward natural beauty and conservation in a Communist society like China.
I'm sure I won't get my book in time for this discussion since the library has ordered 3 copies and the waiting list is at 6. But I'm following along.....
God bless,
Gwen in Denver
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momwise
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Wendi DeGrandpr wrote:
| In this country IMHO people should be less concerned with pointing their environmental fingers at those in the world who have NOTHING, and look at our own culture, where farm land and forest is turned into 4000 sq ft houses and three car garages, |
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And Ted Turner uses thousands of acres to keep his own buffalo herd while he uses the profits to surgically and chemically sterilize poor women. We have an abortionist in Boulder who does all the 3rd trimester killings who has spent his life protecting a mountain named Holy Cross from 4-wheelers. Not that I would want 4-wheelers up there, but with his priorities that mixed up I really resent the press always referring to him as an environmentalist.
God bless,
Gwen in Denver (getting back on track now  )
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julia s.
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I am jumping into the discussion here after a long break, so forgive me if I've missed a few beats. But I think muddying the discussion on environmental awareness with abortion issues is counter productive. I know plenty of anti-abortion protesters who are ardent environmentalists (the whole sactity of life) and so I don't see how one belief leads to another. It is true people have contradictory beliefs, sometimes this is by purpose and sometimes this is out of ignorance. Abortion is just one of those beliefs where people don't see the connection between preciousness of life and preciousness of all life including human. Fear is such a strong motivator in how people react to the environment. Maybe I answered my own question about the connection after all  .
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julia
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Erica Sanchez
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Also jumping in after a loooonnnnggg break from this board (two weeks at least feels like a long break - 16 pages of new posts - yikes!!!!).
Anyway, I did hear Richard Louv's lecture last night at the musuem - turns out he is actually from San Diego and writes a weekly column in our paper! Who knew?! As I rarely read local news, not I!!
I purchased the book when I first arrived and randomly opened the book........ the subtitle on that page read, "Real World Learning" and the first sentence under that was, "For more effective education reform, teachers should free kids from the classroom."  I laughed out loud and thought of all of you and the hundreds of homeschoolers I know!
I was a little disappointed with the lecture. It was short and a bit environmentalist and classroom focused. I did get the sense that that population made up the majority of the lecture hall. What I was really thinking is how far ahead of the curve we homeschoolers are as far as our children and nature!!!! I should have said that out loud. I wasn't feeling very brave!
I did love when he said something about children and people in general just missing that sense of 'wonder and awe' in nature. He used the term 'stewards of the earth'. It looks like near the end of his book he discusses spirituality a little. I am interested to read how that plays into all this for him. I know how it plays into it all for us!
I am going to email him after this. I'll let him know about Charlotte Mason and nature study and all of you.
OT - Does this describe your family? On trash day in my neighborhood, we consistenly have the least amount of trash (1 can each for trash, recycling, yard waste) and sometimes they aren't even full! Our neighbors with less children often have several of each! Not to be down on my neighbors, but I'd love to somehow bring that up to radical environmentalists who would definitely be down on my larger family!!!
Growing up in San Diego, I spent most of my life outdoors. Beaches, mountains, deserts, we've got it all within an hours drive. We also traveled and tent-camped our way around the country. My parents were amazing in this way!
Sorry for the long post!
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Kelly
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I guess I've been "ranting" a little about the book because I was soooo excited about the premise, but after reading it, felt let-down. To me, it seemed like Louv was overly simplistic in his diagnosis of the problem (hence my ventilation!) and seemed to place overmuch emphasis in government and government-funded school "fixes". I was hoping for more great, "grassroots", CM ideas!!! Also, the book decidely overlooks the faith element, I thought, with most of the "spiritual" elements being things like the quote from the Catholic mom who said something along the lines of "I want my child to be aware of God and His/Her designs..." or something groovy like that. There was little representation of traditional Christian thought on the subject, I thought, which seems to be standard among environmental activists (not ALWAYS, of course, but more common than not). Anyway, I guess I jumped the gun and am getting ahead of the discussion, not to mention letting my emotions get in the way of an objective analysis!
I was wondering how the lecture went, and am glad to hear you're emailing Louv about the CM approach, Erica. I had much the same thought as I read the book.
Kelly in FL
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MacBeth
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Hey Kelly, Erica and all!
Erica, I am not sure how any contact with the author from a CM POV will go over. As a professional in the field I have found that teachers are very receptive to CM/outdoor ed ideas, but those who teach outdoor ed. as a course in college are very skeptical, even to the point of writing papers in professional journals in opposition to "Victorian nature study revival." It might be worth a try, though...
Kelly, I am not dissapointed because the book is exactly what I expected it to be. I figured the idea of the study group would be to see where the author is correct, point out where he is incorrect, and find ways of countering the "nature deficit" trend (if it exists, and I belive it does) in our own little corner of the world.
Overall, and I know that some folks are waiting for the book, and others have not read the whole thing, I think there is some great value in the book, even if the author is talking to a more schoolish crowd than one might find on this board. In most instances, I have enjoyed his openess in discussing the issue with people with whom he disagrees, as well as people with whom I might disagree. I do not agree with RFK Jr. on many points (I believe the author does), but I did enjoy Kennedy's comment, "Nature is not God," and Louv's description of Kennedy sharing the sport of scuba with his family. I know the author did not agree with his friend Nick Raven's attitude toward food (he slaughtered his own food, including his daughter's pet goat). I thought it was funny that Raven feels "suffering is redemptive," while the author feels it's his job to protect his kids from "the brutatlity of the world." Isn't that sort of insulation from reality exactly what he is complaining about in the book?
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
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Erica Sanchez
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Thanks, MacBeth, for the insight - I haven't emailed him yet and I really feel a bit incompetent in sharing CM's POV anyway. Maybe someone else would be up to the task (rlouv@cts.com). I thought I might ask him, though, what his experience has been with nature and the homeschool population in general and if we in any way might be one of his "hopes" that he talked about.
I found myself nodding in agreement with lots of things he said, despite what was lacking in the lecture, and I will still read the book.....eventually!
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Kelly
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Wasn't it RFK Jr. who was big into falconry as a teenager? That's been gnawing around the edges of my memory ever since I read that part about him and his family.
Macbeth, despite my being disappointed by the book (my initial reaction to it was to tell Chari not to buy it!), I do agree that there is much within its pages that is thought-provoking and interesting. Louv articulates well, and he certainly puts into writing, succinctly, some concerns that I imagine hover around our collective CM mindsets, concerns about "electrical" over-stimulation, safety in the wild, finding ways to simply "be" in nature without being over protective, and our sense that nature provides a certain emotional nourishment. I say "we" and "our" because these same themes seem to pop up periodically in our CM discussions about Nature study---and Louv certainly says it all so much better than I ever could!!! His book brought back some great memories, too! However, there do seem to be some inconsistencies---like the Nick Raven scenario you mention, which really appeared to jar Louv. Maybe if he didn't spend all his time flyfishing and throwing his fish back in, and cleaned a few instead, he wouldn't have been *quite* so shocked by that episode! Which brings us right back to your initial question, Macbeth, about the importance of our children knowing the origin of their food!
As an aside, I took my children on an airboat in an area not far from the edge of the Everglades, today. Being Florida, it was loaded with alligators. Later, at the outpost on the riverbank, we bought some alligator jerky. One of the younger kids said something like how bad he felt to be eating the little alligators. My older daughter said, "So what, you eat hamburgers all the time. And cows are nice, at least they don't go after people" There was a very long silence in the car...
Where was it in the Louv book that he talks about the further removed we are from nature, the more children are surrounded by images/toys/cartoons of nature? Intellectually, children these days seem to know an awful lot of zoo-book style "factoids" about animals, but hands on knowledge about the food chain does seem to be scarce. I know my aunt never thought twice about grabbing a chicken for dinner from outside her door stoop and wringing its neck. It would be half-plucked before she made it thru the kitchen door! Conversely, even tho I've been around that kind of thing, and cleaned about a million fish in my time, I'd have to say I'd be squeamish about emulating my Aunt Bea! (One year my younger brother was in charge of killing the chickens on my grandmother's farm---my older brother looked out the window and saw he had made a guillotine and had a little hood for the chickens so it would be quick and painless!)
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JennGM
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Hi All!
I confess I haven't read all the posts in this forum, but when I read this editorial, Out of the Woods today from the Washington Post Magazine, citing Last Child in the Woods, I had to pass it on. Dh and I had quite a few chuckles. You have to register to read the article, but registration is free.
God bless!
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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4Real Forums : Exploring God's Creation in Nature and Science
Topic: Last Child in the Woods--book study
