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Lisbet
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| Posted: Dec 04 2006 at 6:16am | IP Logged
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I will tell you that I am NOT a girly-girl eaither. I would much rather have my cropped hair (I've had the Hallie Berry cut for YEARS, just recently it's long for me, all the way to my chin!  ) I would also rather grab my black yogas every morning rather than a skirt. A HUGE part of it is for reparation of my own sins against purity when I was younger. Another part is because I talk the talk of being a woman, and I realized, being more sensual (not s*xual) by nature, dressing more femininly would help me to walk the walk. It does help me, more than I ever could imagine. Gotta go, baby needs to nurse...
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Natalia
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[Quote] This is not very philosophical, is it? [Quote]
I was thinking about this after I went to bed last night. My last post changed the discussion from a theoretical discussion to a more personal one.  Not very consistent 
In the article you linked
"But what sets the woman apart from the man? Isn’t he also obedient to the Magisterium, one who respects life, and a faithful child of Mary? Yes, he is. There must be something more."
That is what I was wanting to discuss. Even when I look at Mary as the example of a the perfect woman I am faced by virtues that are not specifically femenine-obediance, humility,etc. But her receptivity - you used that term- that seems to be uniquely womanly. And with receptivity comes openness.
The article offers this answer:
"The difference that sets women apart is that she imitates the Church, the Bride of Christ. As peculiar as this might seem at first glance, let us consider what the Church does. In supernatural ways, the Church welcomes new members, she cleanses them in the waters of baptism, she feeds them at the Eucharistic feast, and she reconciles them in the confessional. She heals them with her anointing balm and finally lays each to rest in the hope of rising again. Throughout she consoles, sustains, and most importantly teaches each member in order that he might find his dignity and the meaning of his life."
I like this. I wonder how you could translate this so that will speak to all women and not only Catholic women?
Natalia
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Natalia
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Bridget wrote:
| [I think that part of the essence of femininity is holding the bar on standards of courtesy and civility. |
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I think this goes along with the part from Genevieve Kineke's article regarding women imitating the Church. Bringing courtesy and civility in all the tasks we are involved in.
Natalia
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Philothea
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Lying in bed last night, I realized that rather than getting so personal and specific in my last post (it was late and I was tired), I should have asked this:
Is my indifference toward cultivating a traditionally feminine, ladylike, soft appearance disordered in and of itself? Should I be striving to appreciate traditional feminine beauty insteasd of settling into my own modernized version of it? In other words, are flowing skirts and long hair inherently more pleasing to God than slacks and a pixie cut?
I hope I don't come across as combative, because I'm completely open to the idea that God IS more pleased by traditional femininty -- the Bible is filled with such images. I'm just surprised at how very difficult it is for me to embrace that femininity.
Those of you who say it's a penance make a lot of sense. Perhaps I could start with that idea. Maybe do it on Wednesdays and/or Fridays during Advent, then all of Lent, and see if God pushes me to work my way up to where you all are.
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JennGM
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Philothea wrote:
Lying in bed last night, I realized that rather than getting so personal and specific in my last post (it was late and I was tired), I should have asked this:
Is my indifference toward cultivating a traditionally feminine, ladylike, soft appearance disordered in and of itself? Should I be striving to appreciate traditional feminine beauty insteasd of settling into my own modernized version of it? In other words, are flowing skirts and long hair inherently more pleasing to God than slacks and a pixie cut? |
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I don't have time to elaborate right now, but perhaps you need to separate in your mind whether it's a type of feminine STYLE that bothers you, or is it truly femininity in general? I have work to do on my femininity, as we all do, but I know my style, and it is not pink, frilly, floral. It's just not me. NEVER has been. I can admire from afar, but it's just not me. But I do love rich fabrics that appeal to the senses--soft to the touch, lovely to the eye, rich colors. I pick flattering hairstyles and clothes that accentuate the positive feminine traits in a modest, pure way...although I'm not always successful in the past few years.
I have a girlfriend who was very tomboyish...and fought the whole dresses thing for a long, long time. Even in a skirt she would look boyish because of her mannerisms. And that's my point...when she softened her attitude, and didn't fight femininity it all fell into place. She's still playing basketball with the girls when she can, and she works with teenagers and is hip, but has a softer side. And I know she wears more "mod" clothing -- but both MODern and MODest.
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Servant2theKing
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In reading some of the posts on femininity, the Litany of Humility, came to mind:
O Jesus! meek and humble of heart, Hear me.
From the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being loved...
From the desire of being extolled ...
From the desire of being honored ...
From the desire of being praised ...
From the desire of being preferred to others...
From the desire of being consulted ...
From the desire of being approved ...
From the fear of being humiliated ...
From the fear of being despised...
From the fear of suffering rebukes ...
From the fear of being calumniated ...
From the fear of being forgotten ...
From the fear of being ridiculed ...
From the fear of being wronged ...
From the fear of being suspected ...
That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be esteemed more than I ...
That, in the opinion of the world,
others may increase and I may decrease ...
That others may be chosen and I set aside ...
That others may be praised and I unnoticed ...
That others may be preferred to me in everything...
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…Amen.
This meditation and image give beautiful insight into Mary's embracing of her femininity:
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary//semler5.html
The title alone, "Lost in the Beauty of her God", suggests how union with the Lord can transform our hearts, minds and souls, and help us radiate the feminine qualities of Mary! Wondrous food for contemplation during the season of Advent.
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Willa
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Natalia wrote:
| That is what I was wanting to discuss. Even when I look at Mary as the example of a the perfect woman I am faced by virtues that are not specifically femenine-obediance, humility,etc. . |
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I found this interview of Alice von Hildebrand On Femininism and Femininity. Since it is an interview, it is not quite as subtle as some of her other writing, but she says (indirectly speaking to your questions, I think):
Quote:
Q: How can women's purported weakness be seen as a source strength?
Von Hildebrand: Granted that from a naturalistic point of view, men are stronger: not only because they are physically stronger, but also because they are more creative, more inventive and more productive -- most great works in theology, philosophy and fine arts have been made by men. They are the great engineers, the great architects.
But the Christian message is that, valuable as all these inventions are, they are dust and ashes compared to every act of virtue. Because a woman by her very nature is maternal -- for every woman, whether married or unmarried, is called upon to be a biological, psychological or spiritual mother -- she knows intuitively that to give, to nurture, to care for others, to suffer with and for them -- for maternity implies suffering -- is infinitely more valuable in God's sight than to conquer nations and fly to the moon. |
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There was another article I skimmed while I was searching yesterday, that I can't find now, that said that women are truly a complement to men; their particular nature allows for a climate in society that brings out the virtues that men need too.
Men need to cultivate those virtues that women seem to have naturally, to some degree or other. Obviously there are wide differences in individual men and women, but we're talking generally here. Many spiritual writings talk about contemplation, for instance, which is often more "natural", build into our very being, to women than to men. Yet vital for every Christian..... that loving, quiet gaze towards the Infant. So if women don't value or develop those specific virtues and influence their sons and daughters correspondingly, society loses -- there is a "coarsening" as Bridget said.
You see it most readily and obviously in the men who don't understand protecting a woman -- I've been majorly pregnant, carrying a toddler, and walking towards a door and had it let slam in my face by a hurried young yuppie man who I imagine would not admit he had any obligation to me as a symbol of motherhood. No doubt he'd be a bit disgusted by the very thought! I imagine those men have had metaphorical doors slammed in their face by the women in their lives -- the mom who left him to go to work or to fulfill herself; the girlfriend or female co-workers who would be deeply offended should he dare open a door for them. That's just an example of course, of a subtle attitude you see all the time, possibly a bit related to our other femininity threads. I don't think we always even realize how pervasive it is.
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Erin
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I think of feminine as being a lady, our Blessed Mother would be the absolute example of course.
What do I mean by a lady? Dress, hair etc can aid in the femininity showing forth but it is not the real essence. To me a lady is someone who ACTS like a lady.
For example there is nothing more cringing than a woman swearing, not meaning to 'point the finger' if you slip up (I used to many eons ago ) but really it is an affront to feminity. A loud voiced woman also is grating (I know I hear MYSELF sometimes and cringe ) Outward appearances can reflect the inward as Genevieve stated, but it is most important to work on the inward.
A lady can come in various ways God has made all of us unique, some of us here may be more crafty, some creative in the kitchen, some of us succed in the garden (I wish) some moms may be great doing crafts with their little ones, some may be more outgoing, some of us more reticent etc. There is no cookie cutter mold of feminity it is a unique cut but yet there is a difference to our counter-part masculinity.
Consider Joan of Arc although she walked a path very different to the woman of her day would have still achieved her task in a feminine manner. How I;m not too certain but I beat she didn't try to be a man. I don;t think she would have been as revered by the soldiers if she had.
I believe feminity is a softness that often, as Patrick wrote, we associate with motherhood. This is why when women become power hungry it seems so unfeminine. A woman should never lose sight of her softer side. This is not to say for example a woman working in roles that have been more traditionally considered 'mens' roles can't be feminine it is HOW they approach things. Some of the women here for example get out and work on the farm etc this doesn't mean they aren't feminine, it is an inward thing. Clear as mud? 
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MicheleQ
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Erin wrote:
| I believe feminity is a softness that often, as Patrick wrote, we associate with motherhood. This is why when women become power hungry it seems so unfeminine. A woman should never lose sight of her softer side. This is not to say for example a woman working in roles that have been more traditionally considered 'mens' roles can't be feminine it is HOW they approach things. Some of the women here for example get out and work on the farm etc this doesn't mean they aren't feminine, it is an inward thing. Clear as mud? |
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Erin,
I think this makes sense. I have been thinking about this whole topic quite a lot lately (as so many others of you obviously have as well). Our culture can make it so hard to be feminine and ladylike. The feminist movement and in my opinion the high rate of divorce has contributed a lot to this. I grew up seeing my mom as being pretty strong. She had to be. She and my dad divorced when I was 11 and before that things were pretty awful. She did a lot and she learned to take care of herself. She taught that to her three daughters (not necessarily directly) and we learned it well. Add to that the boys who have come from similar homes (like my dh). Most of them ended up with their mothers and saw the same sort of thing. What did they learn? That women can take care of themselves and don't really "need" a man. That weakness is well, weak and women should be strong. BUT as I have reflected on this for the last several weeks one thing that has come to my mind is that despite all I am capable of there is a deep desire in me to be taken care of, to be protected and to be (in some ways) weak. That sounds odd doesn't it? It's so contrary to the way we're taught - subtely through the media and directly in other ways - and yet I truly think this is how we are made. Yes I can do many things and in many ways don't outwardly appear to "need" a man. Most women will step up and do what needs to be done, because well, it needs to be done. But what is it doing to us? what is it doing to our men? Are we inwardly building resentment because we feel like we have to do everything and are men being left to feel like they aren't really needed and/or is it causing them to have further expectations of women that they shouldn't? I am in a hurry so this all may sound jumbled but I wanted to comment anyway because it's been on my mind. I'd love to hear other's thoughts in this regard and how perhaps this has affected our understanding of femininity and ladylikeness. Gotta run. Please excuse typos - no time to check.
God bless,
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Michele Quigley
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SaraP
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St Teresa Benedicta (Edith Stein - a woman saint who spent much of her life in an almost entirely male profession as a university professor of philosophy) has much wisdom on this in her Essays on Woman.
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: The Essence of femininity
