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JennGM
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Thanks for the thorough answer, Katherine. I had all that information, but was hoping it was doctrine so I could make my dh believe me.  But your points about stressing the mystery is good.
That's why I probably won't go see this movie...I know she was human, but the Virgin Birth is a mystery, and I truly believe, as with the Church Fathers, that it wasn't an ordinary childbirth.
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fsuadamson
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I'm certainly not a scholar on this topic but I had heard once a beautiful analogy of Christ's birth by a Marian priest.
I'm paraphrasing here but he said that Christ's birth was like sun light passing through a glass of water. The light does not disturb the water but it will pass from one side of the glass of water to the other. This is how Mary's hymen did not break hence she remained a virgin through the birthing process.
I don't think it is that difficult a mystery to believe or understand. When you think about it didn't Christ go up on the mountain with a couple of his disciples for the Transfiguration? Also I saw a movie of St. Bernadette where during one of her apparitions a person in the crowd held a flame of a candle to her hand and the flame went completely through, afterwards the flame of the candle burned her skin. I imagine the mystery of Christ's birth was very similar to these examples...
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kjohnson
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It's always easier when the matter is clearly defined, huh? I don't know what we're going to do about the movie. Our kids want to see it, but after reading what Macbeth wrote about some intense scenes, I don't know. I'm sure the massacre of the Holy Innocents on a big screen in surround sound would be horrifying to a little one, even if they know the story by heart. Our parish priest said that he received a letter from his bishop stating that there was nothing contrary to the Catholic Faith in the movie, but that some things are left out. I've seen the previews when we took the kids to see Happy Feet (don't waste your money) and it brought tears to my eyes. But I really don't like to have others (especially the secular media) form images for me regarding the mysteries of our Faith. That's why I've never watch The Passion of the Christ. Even though a devout Catholic made the film, I still am hesitant to allow his interpretation on the big screen affect my personal meditation on matters of Faith. I like those things to be kept interior, just between me and the Holy Spirit. ...Totally a personal preference and definitely no right or wrong answer on that one.
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JennGM
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kjohnson wrote:
| It's always easier when the matter is clearly defined, huh? I don't know what we're going to do about the movie. Our kids want to see it, but after reading what Macbeth wrote about some intense scenes, I don't know. I'm sure the massacre of the Holy Innocents on a big screen in surround sound would be horrifying to a little one, even if they know the story by heart. Our parish priest said that he received a letter from his bishop stating that there was nothing contrary to the Catholic Faith in the movie, but that some things are left out. I've seen the previews when we took the kids to see Happy Feet (don't waste your money) and it brought tears to my eyes. But I really don't like to have others (especially the secular media) form images for me regarding the mysteries of our Faith. That's why I've never watch The Passion of the Christ. Even though a devout Catholic made the film, I still am hesitant to allow his interpretation on the big screen affect my personal meditation on matters of Faith. I like those things to be kept interior, just between me and the Holy Spirit. ...Totally a personal preference and definitely no right or wrong answer on that one. |
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The Holy Innocents scene would be hard for ME to watch. This feast has brought more meaning and hurts more now that I am a mother...I don't want more visualization to disturb me.
I did like the Passion, although I still cover my eyes for some scenes. The Marian aspect, with the mysteries and her deep faith, was beautiful, and that was extremely important to me.
I would like to put my money for some GOOD film, even if it's not perfect...but in honesty, I don't go to the theaters anyway...
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Helen
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JennGM wrote:
| Is it an article of faith to believe in the Virgin Birth? And if so, what aspects? Is it in the Catechism? |
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The perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin means before, during and after. Three aspects that must be believed.
(In a recent article in the Homiletic and Pastoral Review there was an excellent article on this subject. The author explained that this belief, all three aspects of the Perpetual Virginity of Our Lady, has been accepted in the entire Christitan community for centuries. It is only a recent phenomenon that the Christians deny this. The article gave 10 ecumenical reasons for the Perpetual virginity.)
If you read through the comment section from the earlier link
you will find priests explaining the theology much better than I can. For me, I thought this was a significant quote:
For the record, St. Thomas in the Summa (II IIae, q. 164, a. 2, ad 3), where he discusses the punishments for original sin, states:
“For any woman who conceives must needs suffer sorrows and bring forth her child with pain: except the Blessed Virgin, who “conceived without corruption, and bore without pain” [St. Bernard, Serm. in Dom. inf. oct. Assum. B. V. M.], because her conceiving was not according to the law of nature, transmitted from our first parents.”
I liked this as well:
Finally, St. Bonaventure neatly brings together the mystery of Our Lady’s sorrows and the Christmas event in the pithy statement: “That which in the Nativity She brought forth with joy, in the Passion She gave birth to with sorrow” (Commentary on Luke, c. 23). Our Lady does have pain in childbirth, but only at the foot of the cross as Mother of the Church.
In the old days we heard this mystery explained, "Just as light passes through glass leaving the glass unharmed. The Lord passed through Our Lady leaving her integrity intact."
As a personal aside, meditating on the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virginity gives Christmas an incredible depth and wonder. WHat did "the shepherds see" which made them believe? Christmas is truly a night of wonders and miracles.
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Helen
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Sorry Leslie, I didn't mean to repeat what you said earlier!!
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JennGM
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Helen wrote:
JennGM wrote:
| Is it an article of faith to believe in the Virgin Birth? And if so, what aspects? Is it in the Catechism? |
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The perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin means before, during and after. Three aspects that must be believed.
(In a recent article in the Homiletic and Pastoral Review there was an excellent article on this subject. The author explained that this belief, all three aspects of the Perpetual Virginity of Our Lady, has been accepted in the entire Christitan community for centuries. It is only a recent phenomenon that the Christians deny this. The article gave 10 ecumenical reasons for the Perpetual virginity.)
......
As a personal aside, meditating on the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virginity gives Christmas an incredible depth and wonder. WHat did "the shepherds see" which made them believe? Christmas is truly a night of wonders and miracles. |
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Thanks so much. "What did the shepherds see" is implied a bit in the masterpiece paintings of the Nativity...Mary gives birth to a son, but is kneeling and receiving guests right away.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Helen
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JennGM wrote:
Thanks so much. "What did the shepherds see" is implied a bit in the masterpiece paintings of the Nativity...Mary gives birth to a son, but is kneeling and receiving guests right away. |
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Yes, I guess Our Lady's prayerful posture as displayed in art might be the artist's way of indicating a painless birth. Something probably believed by the faithful for centuries.
Also the "three stars" on Our Lady's cloak, especially in icons refers to the Perpetual Virginity. One star may be concealed by the figure of the Christ child.
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enjoythejourney
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Hello all! This is my first post here...
I will start by saying I'm not Catholic. I'm a member of another denomination but have recently been on a faith journey where I'm desperately trying to figure out where I fit in. Dawn (By sun & candlelight) has been so gracious to me and has invited me to participate in your forums. Part of my quandry with my faith is that I want more TRADITION for my children, which has really drawn me to the Catholic church.
Anyhow, I read this thread with eyes wide open because I really want to see this movie. I'm a Christian, not Catholic and I've ALWAYS been taught that Mary was a virgin and have always been taught in the immaculate conception. I was surprised to read here that Christians don't believe this? I think maybe it is a more fringe group that doesn't believe in the Immaculate Conception, because every Christian I know does!
Anyhow, I just wanted to say that.
I look forward to learning more in your community and forums, especially how to pass on church tradition in our homeschool.
Lindsey
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kjohnson
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enjoythejourney wrote:
Anyhow, I read this thread with eyes wide open because I really want to see this movie. I'm a Christian, not Catholic and I've ALWAYS been taught that Mary was a virgin and have always been taught in the immaculate conception. I was surprised to read here that Christians don't believe this? I think maybe it is a more fringe group that doesn't believe in the Immaculate Conception, because every Christian I know does!
Lindsey |
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Hi Lindsey. Welcome to this forum. It's nice to have you here.
I read your post and I was wondering if you may be confused about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. I hear it referenced by non-Catholics and in the media as the belief in the virginal conception of Christ, but the Immaculate Conception comes before the Incarnation. It is a dogma of the Catholic Church that teaches that Mary was conceived without Original Sin, or, that from the moment of her own conception she was free from sin. I know that most non-Catholics do not believe in this dogma, yet when they hear the term Immaculate Conception they say they do because they think they are referring to a doctrine on the virginal conception of Christ. The Immaculate Conception surely points to the Person of Christ and His divinity...as Mary as the inviolate Ark of the Covenant who contained the Word of God in her virginal and sinless womb, but its immediate subject is Mary and not the conception of Christ.
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Katherine
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enjoythejourney
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Katherine,
You are right, I was confused, as I have never had it explained to me that way.
Oh, so much to learn. I imagine adults like me who are contemplating joining the Catholic church have alot to learn! :)
I've only been to mass once but we are looking forward to it as a family during advent.
I forgot to say in my Original Post that as a non-Catholic I certainly will not be doing any "evangelizing" here...just here to learn.
Thanks for having me.
Lindsey
(who can't figure out how to get a signature set up!)
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kjohnson
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enjoythejourney wrote:
Oh, so much to learn. I imagine adults like me who are contemplating joining the Catholic church have alot to learn! :)
I've only been to mass once but we are looking forward to it as a family during advent.
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Having so much to learn is exciting. What wonderful blessings await you. I pray that your family is truly blessed this Advent season and that God continues to guide you along your journey.
And I think you have to post a certain number of posts before you have the signature option. Maybe 10 or 20? Can't remember.
Again, welcome.
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Katherine
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Helen
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Welcome Lindsey!!!
If you check out Katherine's amazing blog and click on the picture with her beautiful smiling children - you can see an icon with Our Lady wearing a cloak with two stars showing and one hidden by the Christ child.
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Ave Maria!
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kjohnson
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Helen, you are so sweet. 
The Icon in the background of the picture of my kids is the wonderworking Icon of the Theotokos of Vladimir. Tradition attributes it to the hand of St. Luke and that he wrote it on a board from the table used by the Holy Family. It is my favorite of all Icons. (We keep our hanging vigil lamp burning oil before it at all times.) I love how the Blessed Mother's right hand is raised in veneration of the Christ Child. And as you said, the stars on her cloak are a beautiful symbol of her ever-viriginity. In the Greek the title for Mary's ever-virginity is Aeiparthenos which dates back to baptismal creeds of the first centuries of the Church. It is a gift that this truth of Our Lady has also been preserved in her iconography.
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Katherine
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Helen
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kjohnson wrote:
| The Icon in the background of the picture of my kids is the wonderworking Icon of the Theotokos of Vladimir. Tradition attributes it to the hand of St. Luke and that he wrote it on a board from the table used by the Holy Family. [...] In the Greek the title for Mary's ever-virginity is Aeiparthenos which dates back to baptismal creeds of the first centuries of the Church. It is a gift that this truth of Our Lady has also been preserved in her iconography. |
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This is my husband's favorite icon as well.
Now tell me ... why did you say in another thread that you won't get involved in theological discussions anymore?
I think we need you to. 
Ave Maria!
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kjohnson
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Helen wrote:
Now tell me ... why did you say in another thread that you won't get involved in theological discussions anymore?
I think we need you to.
Ave Maria! |
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teachingmom
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Hi everyone,
We saw a preview of The Nativity Story this evening. (Yes, Elizabeth, I decided to go after all!) Joe had seen the movie twice before in his role of "preview host" so he stepped out with my little one when she began to make noise. We took all of our children. Since dh had seen the movie, I knew to warn two of our younger girls (ages 6 and 3) to close their eyes/turn away from the screen into Daddy's shoulder during the scenes of the slaughter of the innocents. That scene was actually very short, although very intense and frightening. It was extremely painful for me to watch, while sitting there nursing my precious infant.  I identified with the mothers of all those infants in a new way. Other than that, I think the movie was appropriate for everyone. There were some humorous scenes that I enjoyed. The growing relationship between Joseph and Mary was beautifully portrayed. I highly recommend it to you and your families.
Yes, Mary was portrayed in a less than Catholic way in some respects, but I didn't find it objectionable. I just discussed the denominational differences with the children during our conversation about the movie during the ride home. I came away from the screening with a movie study guide published by the Daughters of St. Paul. (Some of whom, by the way, sat in the row right in front of us, along with a handful other religious sisters, during the movie. When we chatted before the movie started and the sisters learned that I have 6 daughters, they called me "Mother Superior".  ) Anyway, the study guide mentions that the screenwriter is a Protestant man who is married to a Catholic and raising three children as Catholics. The wife and children are described as "very active" in their Catholic parish, so this man is familiar with Catholicism.
As for whether Mary experienced pain in childbirth, dh and I both recall from our theology studies at Steubenville that the Church has not spoken definitively on that. We are free to believe either that Mary experienced childbirth just like any other woman (while always remaining a virgin), or that Jesus was born in a miraculous, painless way. The writings of the saints regarding a painless birth are personal reflections and not definitive magisterial teaching, as I recall.
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Mary G
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Thanks Irene for posting your review. And the clarification on the magisterial teachings. I know when we were in Austria, I was taking a course on "New Adam, New Eve" and we talked alot about the Blessed Mother, her perpetual virginity and the writings of the Fathers about her. It was kind of funny as our professor was a consecrated laywoman (with 2 cloistered nuns for sisters) and as she was describing Mary as not having labor or any prebirth pains, I was squirming as my JohnPaul was kicking blue blazes out of me in utero!
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J.Anne
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Just a quick note: My sister saw it Monday and said I should not take my daughter(6) because of the fearful opening and closing scenes. She, admittedly, is very sensitive about death, but as Jenn said, I don't think I could watch a scene about the children who were killed. My sister said this was not overtly violent, but it was scary. My sister was also slightly disappointed that Mary was portrayed as "mischievous" in the beginning.
Jennifer
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Helen
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Father Angelo, who I quoted above, has a vlog about the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
He also has some written material.
Air Maria
I'm not sure how to link the vlog directly. But if you visit the site soon after this post, I think you should find it there.
It is very well done.
(Every month at our Franciscan cenacle meetings, we receive teaching similar to this vlog entry.)
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Ave Maria!
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Movie: The Nativity Story
