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MicheleQ
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I am going to have to bow out of this conversation. My heart just isn't in it right now and I feel like I'm not being understood well anyway. For the record, I do not think we should "rebuke" our husbands but yes I do think there are times when gentle, loving correction is appropriate and I can find nothing in Church teaching that says otherwise.
Pardon my bluntness but the idea of the hyper-submissive marriage as the only possible or rather the best model just sounds too Protestant to me.
I do not think that every women has to fit a stereotype to be fulfilling her vocation. My dh works part time from home. He doesn't expect me to have total care of the house - we work as a team and oddly enough we are actually happier than we have ever been in our marriage. Perhaps some would say I am not submissive enough. I've discussed this at length with my dh and he doesn't feel this is an issue in our marriage so I will take his word for it and we will continue on the path that God has laid before us.
God bless,
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Lissa
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Michele, I hope you didn't think I was implying that you were advocating in favor of rebuking! I'm so sorry if it came across that way--that's not at all the case--I was just following a train of thought sparked by Elizabeth's and Lisbet's posts.
As you know, I too had a work-at-home husband for many years (until this summer) and both of us worked part time, sharing the household duties. That was a GREAT arrangement for us, and it was his idea in the first place. He wanted to leave his office job (eight years ago) and come home to write, and in order for that to work, I had to bring in some more income as well. The Charlotte series came along at exactly that point in time (I was already writing Martha) and it was a wonderful situation for all of us. But I do think that because of our share-the-housework partnership, it took me a while to understand that I could do that as his helpmeet, or as his taskmaster. It's about my attitude, and that's what I was getting at before.
It means that whenever I have to choose between writing and making the house homey, I must choose the latter first. That was the case then, even when he was at home, and all the more so now that he has chosen to take an office job again.
That Proverbs 31 wife was a busy woman, bringing in income for her household in various ways *as well as* providing a warm and welcoming environment for her husband. She wasn't superwoman (she had servants), but her attitude was loving and enthusiastic and merry and how-can-I-help--all the things I know YOU are too! 
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Lissa
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MicheleQ
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No Lissa dear I did not think you were implying that. I hadn't even read your post when I sent mine (I think we were writing at the same time). I do like what you said and I agree it's not about my agenda (though it's funny because my dh will often start the day with "So Sweetie, what's on the agenda for today?") and I do see my dh as the head of the household - it just that he so often seeks my input and (maybe in part because we have been married so long) we almost always seem to be coming from the same point of view...and when we aren't he is always willing to hear me out and yet I almost always come to see his view as being the most logical or correct.
It's just that I can't focus on this anymore. I don't have the energy. I am grieving for a friend and yet nesting at the same time. I am excited at the thought of my baby's impending birth and terribly saddened ovr a dear friend's terrible loss. It's sapping everything I have so I am just going to say goodbye for now.
God bless,
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Elizabeth
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MicheleQ wrote:
| Pardon my bluntness but the idea of the hyper-submissive marriage as the only possible or rather the best model just sounds too Protestant to me. |
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Not sure what is meant by "hyper-submission" (to me, it sounds hysterical) is but I think that the examples offered have all been well within the fullness of the Church's entire instruction to women on holiness in their particular vocation and are neither extreme (hyper?) nor Protestant. The idea that this model for marriage is extreme is not new to me. I know that I have neighbors who think my lifestyle is extreme in more ways than this one  . We live in times that call for heroic virtue. We live in times that are extremely devoid of Biblical moorings. This approach to marriage may seem extreme but it's as old as Sarah and Abraham and it's been proven throughout the ages.
As pointed out in the link provided by Bridget, the Church traditionally has taught a literal interpretation of what St. Paul said in Eph. 5, and that is thoroughly Catholic. For me, the wisdom of the ages has proven itself in this modern household. It is Catholic and it does bless us.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Erica Sanchez
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Bridget wrote:
Be passionate and happy in marital relations, often.  |
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I'm sorry, I can't help myself! Every time this thread pops up in my active topics, I just can't help chuckle and think that what every man really wants is........well, what Bridget said above!!!!
Seriously, Bridget, your list is fantastic! And, I hope I don't offend. This is such a great discussion!
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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lapazfarm
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Erica Sanchez wrote:
Bridget wrote:
| Be passionate and happy in marital relations, often. |
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I'm sorry, I can't help myself! Every time this thread pops up in my active topics, I just can't help chuckle and think that what every man really wants is........well, what Bridget said above!!!!
Seriously, Bridget, your list is fantastic! And, I hope I don't offend. This is such a great discussion! |
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OK, I'm glad YOU said it first!LOL! Because that is exactly what I was thinking!LOL! Truly, if things are good in that area, then all else is forgiven!
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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Bridget
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Kevin keeps wanting me to post that, but I didn't want him to sound like a carnal, neanderthal! 
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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hylabrook1
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Bridget -
He doesn't sound like a carnal neanderthal, more like a healthy, loving husband.
Peace,
Nancy
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Erica Sanchez
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I posted late last night and all day I prayed I didn't offend by my comment. I thought I just couldn't be the only one..... 
I think the way you worded it, Bridget, is beautiful and perfect!
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Lissa
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No way you could offend, Erica! And I thought the same thing, LOL. Bridget, too funny about what Kevin said--Scott would totally agree.
You really did word it so perfectly.
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Lissa
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Karen E.
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I was going to say the same thing -- you couldn't offend us, Erica! And Atticus would agree, too.
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Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Elizabeth
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No offense at all, Erica, just a slight blush of recognition .
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Willa
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Not sure what is meant by "hyper-submission" (to me, it sounds hysterical) is but I think that the examples offered have all been well within the fullness of the Church's entire instruction to women on holiness in their particular vocation and are neither extreme (hyper?) nor Protestant. |
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I agree that the examples given were within the fullness of the Church's instruction, but I don't think that's exactly what Michele was getting at... not trying to speak for her, and I hope I don't misrepresent her point.
There IS "hyper-submission" out there, mostly in Protestant circles -- I used to meet it occasionally online. Obeying the husband as if he were God, even when he was proposing sin. Radical virtue, the kind we are trying to achieve, is a mean between extremes, not a simple extreme one way or another.
So I understood Michele to be trying to set out the counter-balance, which I think is important in these kinds of discussions -- so the people reading and not posting, particularly, know our (Catholic orthodox) position is distinct from that kind of "hyper" extreme.
So while I agree that the examples given of submission were within Church teaching, I think that Michele's were too. Anything radical and true in Catholic virtue is always some kind of balance -- balance is not the same as compromise or mediocrity -- it's something very different.... like Chesterton says, balance is a very active delicate process that requires lots of pushes and counterpushes. Ugh -- this is why I didn't write this post before, because I can't seem to say what I'm trying to say without bringing in everything but the kitchen sink 
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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4 lads mom
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Hi Everyone,
I am sort of new here...but I have been thinking of this quite a lot before I had even read the thread. There was a passage in Michael O'Brien's "Plague Journal" that struck me as I read it recently. The main character is thinking about what destroyed his marriage, which in the end, was lack of love.
"Everything in our era needed to be loved First. We poor men with our pathetic egos-we needed women to love us so we could become strong enough to love them. And they needed us to love them in order to be able to love us. Somebody had to go first, and practically no one felt he should be the one..."
The Saints are such a good example of who goes first...but that is going to look different in every family, but the common ground is...love. I bet Zelie Martin, running her own lace shop out of her home and Gina Molla working outside the home as a doctor related differently to their husbands than say....St. Monica. The common thread, they were virtuous women!! In the end...virtue brings submission or whatever you want to call it....I personally like "attentiveness", but I am not trying to be cantankerous, really.
I am in a house full of guys, no daughters yet...and I think about how the boys view my role in this house and how important it is that they see my RESPECTING their father, and being helpful, but especially loving, "going first". I sooo need to work on that. A priest was once talking to my prayer group about temperments...and he said, (paraphrasing) "Ladies, if you want your husband to change...compliment him...his sense of masculinity depends on you complimenting him and being on HIS side. Nothing will change his attitude quicker than a fiendly hug and telling him what you think he is really good at or how much you appreciate him working and providing..."
I don't know why I felt compelled to post with so much wisdom here already, but I have been thinking about my attitude towards my husband and how I need to tune that up, I feel the Holy Spirit calling me to be more of a loving wife..not just the keeper of the zoo,huuhumm, I mean home!
Thanks for listening to the rookie...
4 Lads' Mom
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lapazfarm
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4 lads mom wrote:
"Everything in our era needed to be loved First. We poor men with our pathetic egos-we needed women to love us so we could become strong enough to love them. And they needed us to love them in order to be able to love us. Somebody had to go first, and practically no one felt he should be the one..."
The Saints are such a good example of who goes first...but that is going to look different in every family, but the common ground is...love. I bet Zelie Martin, running her own lace shop out of her home and Gina Molla working outside the home as a doctor related differently to their husbands than say....St. Monica. The common thread, they were virtuous women!! In the end...virtue brings submission or whatever you want to call it....I personally like "attentiveness", but I am not trying to be cantankerous, really.
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I am so glad you decided to jump in! This is wonderful!
I love the idea of it being about who "goes first."
Thank you!
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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Tina P.
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almamater wrote:
| Protestant, Catholic or otherwise, a working man will be much more eager to come home, much better tempered, and more confident/encouraged in his professional life if he comes home to a (relatively) clean home, a wife who prepared herself for him, a clan of children cheerfully welcoming him (in their various quiet or rambunctious ways). |
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I am a complete failure at this. My husband stresses out more when he comes home than when he's at work.  Nothing satisfies him. I have my older children help me, but I have a needy baby who wakes me in the middle of the night almost nightly. I also have three who are 7 and under. They can only be kept busy for so long. When they're not busy cleaning, they're busy making a mess or getting underfoot. I took great pains to pick up games today and get all the pieces together and saw one of those games spewed all over on the floor. It tempts me to toss all things with small pieces into the trash. 
Our house is so tense it's about to burst. My husband tried (unsuccessfully) to help my 12 yob with his penmanship. They spent at least an hour together bent over a piece of paper. When we did our Rosary, just following their exercise, the 12 yo was just pressed up against my dh, smiling from ear to ear. The 12 yo needs so much from his dad that he's just not getting because every time dad's home, he's pushing us all to do more than we are able.
almamater wrote:
| But, a husband can feel more satisfied in his role as man/husband if he is allowed, encouraged to do as much of the "man's work" as possible and then is appreciated for it. |
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My husband has no such satisfaction. He'd be thrilled if I changed the oil in the cars, changed lightbulbs, fixed whatever needed fixing, unplugged toilets, tiled the bathroom floor ...
almamater wrote:
| Just as I sometimes get frustrated when my dh tries to do grocery shopping and laundry...not done the way I like it done, makes me feel inadequate/like a failure. |
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My husband *does* generally grocery shop because the store at which we do our huge shopping is almost an hour away with traffic and he works on base, where the store is located. I try to give him a detailed list. And it is *he* who is not satisfied with the way *I* do laundry, often making me redo things because they are wrinkled and telling me that he can't wear this or that shirt because I left it in the dryer so long it shrunk. Interestingly enough, if I just hide the shirt for a few months and bring them out when he's forgotten that I "burned" (his words) them, he finds it fits him. Therefore, he does his own laundry.
Sometimes, I dearly need to get out of the house. I work in it 24 hours a day, it seems. When I do this, I come home to "How can you leave the house in this state? I never would have ... " We've talked and talked about all that I'm sharing with you now and he still has no concept of how difficult it is to manage hsing 7 (two of those are still preschool) children, keeping everyone on track and accountable, cleaning, straightening, reorganizing every time the seasons change, preparing for holidays ... the list is infinite.
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Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
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Bridget
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Oh Tina, I don't have much time right now. But I have to tell you, my dh is NOT an easy going, relaxed person. Many times I thought everything was going well only to find that he was stressed and upset over something. Usually I wouldn't have been able to anticipate it because I didn't see it as a problem.
We can call ourselves the 'St. Monica's Just Keep Smiling Club'.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Erica Sanchez
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Hi Tina,
Hang in there! I'm praying for you right now. I don't think you are a failure at all. To me it sounds like you are doing your very best to please your husband. Could it be something else that is bothering him and he chooses the seemingly (to us women, anyway) less important things to fuss about? Something at work? Some personal sin? Just unhappiness with himself? Seven children and homeschooling and a needy baby! (Make that six children and that's me!) Nothing will be perfect. This is my very humble advice for you Tina.
Pray for him! A novena to St. Joseph perhaps.
Continue to be patient with him.
Continue to share, when appropriate, your stuggles. This is hard to do without complaining or sounding like we're wimps, but I do think, like you said, husbands often don't understand how difficult our days can be. I also don't think they understand the pure joy we experience throughout the day, either, and it is good to share those moments, too. :)
Gently 'confront' him if you believe his treatment of you is related to something other than what he perceives are your shortcomings. Does that make sense?
Offer it up.
Ask your husband what two or three things are most important to him and focus on those. What makes him happy? I was surprised when Cash really just wanted to be able to walk to the closet and find an ironed shirt.
My favorite - If possible and when it is necessary or needed, get away for a few days without the children (or most of the children). My husband is completely capable of caring for all of the children when I have to be away and he truly enjoys it! I think, though, he was surprised at how much work it really is caring for and schooling many children and it has given him a much deeper appreciation for me and my 'work'.
I keep re-reading your post, Tina, and I'm sad for you. I don't know if anything I'm saying is even helpful.
Many blessings and prayers for you both,
__________________
Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Tina P.
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Erica Sanchez wrote:
Hi Tina,
Hang in there! I'm praying for you right now. I don't think you are a failure at all. |
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Thank you, Erica. Your words offer much solace.
Erica Sanchez wrote:
Gently 'confront' him if you believe his treatment of you is related to something other than what he perceives are your shortcomings. Does that make sense?
I keep re-reading your post, Tina, and I'm sad for you. I don't know if anything I'm saying is even helpful.
Many blessings and prayers for you both,
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I asked him yesterday why he was so grumpy. He said it wasn't me, it was the kids he was upset with for not helping me enough. However, I explained to him that when he's upset with the children, he's upset with me since they are a reflection on me. In some ways, I can't see the reflection at all, like in my son, who tries to get out of or do the least possible schoolwork. I always was a good student.  However, it is I who trains them to help me. If he's telling me they don't help enough, then I feel that I should have trained them better. And they are not willing helpers. Where did that come from? I don't remember being an unwilling helper until my parents just heaped everything on me because my sisters moved away.
Everything you've said has been a help. Thank you so much for your concern.
Back to work! God bless,
__________________
Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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Cay Gibson
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Tina P. wrote:
I asked him yesterday why he was so grumpy. He said it wasn't me, it was the kids he was upset with for not helping me enough. However, I explained to him that when he's upset with the children, he's upset with me since they are a reflection on me. |
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My dh has said this as well. I wonder if it's a "guy thing" in their subtle way they are saying they aren't happy with our "method" of doing things.
My dh has brought up the issue of our 13 yr old attending the local school next year. I don't want him to and ds doesn't want to go.
I think dh thinks the boy spends too much time in his room (which every time I think of it I think of "Surviving the Applewhites" ) and is a little lazy. I've never seen a 13 yr old who is so focused on his school work though and who does it so willingly without complaining. But my dh doesn't see that angle.
But, whenever my dh brings up letting the teenagers go to school (and even letting the younger ones "try it out") I'm left feeling that I haven't done a "good enough" job or there is something he isn't pleased with in my teaching style. 
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: What men really want.
