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Lisbet
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Jenn and Theresa, I think maybe that the point was not so much that she shouldn't carry the ladder or taters or pick the apples, I think the point was that she was letting the children, the house and her feminity suffer. There was no 'balance' there. Her husband was coming home to cluttered chaos, a dirty wife, and hooligan children.
Personally, my suggestion to this (I know it's fictional) would've been for her to tidy up the house after breakfast, keep the children with her helping her with the farm work throughout the day, then cut out an hour or two early to prepare dinner, pick up around the house and freshen up the children and herself. Maybe take one day off from the outside farm work to devote to home and laundry, etc..
The part of the story that bothered me was the idea that as wives, we need to choose what our husbands really want because they don't know for themselves. As women we are more intuitive and I think it's very worthy to try to anticipate our husbands needs before they even realize it's needed, but, men are very logical and direct. I think if we ask what they want/need/like, they will flat out let us know.
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
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Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Bridget
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Lisbet wrote:
Personally, my suggestion to this (I know it's fictional) would've been for her to tidy up the house after breakfast, keep the children with her helping her with the farm work throughout the day, |
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Yep, thats a big part missing from the lesson of the story. The children needed to be working along side their parents. Both with farm work and house work. Their behavior can be corrected quickly because they are all together and there is less to correct because they are busy and productive. They have the example of their parents all day of how to be a good woman and man.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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almamater
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I loved the story, but certainly do agree that it presents only one side. My husband and I certainly work as a team, but, in our case, I worry that he helps out too much with the housework.
I think the principle of the story is wonderful and offers many lessons. Willa's parrallel parable would be a great read, too!
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MicheleQ
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Elizabeth wrote:
Sometimes, pieces like this really do leave me feeling like women are being encouraged to be manipulative or to think they know better than men how men need to be "handled." . . .
My husband has asked for my assistance more times than I can count as he's tried to run a business from home while actually working on the road much of the time. I can't imagine having the audacity to refuse...And there are lots of times when handling something that has come up here while he's three time zones away does take my attention away from home and children. But I cannot for the life of me imagine saying that I couldn't fax, file, phone or whatever because that isn't my role  . |
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This is similar to how I felt when I read the story. It just didn't ring universally true with me. I mean I think I did understand where she was trying to go I just didn't think she really made the point as well as it could have been made - or maybe she did and I'm reading it from a different perspective.
I actually talked to my dh about it and he felt like it presented too many extremes. The house was a total mess, the children weren't helping and the whole idea that a good dinner and clean home would suddenly inspire the husband to find a solution seemed too contrived.
I did feel like there was a sense of men needing to be "handled" and it reminded me of so many Protestant books and articles that promote this idea. I think it's disrespectful to men, even if it isn't meant to be.
What struck me as missing was a proper presentation of the mutual submission of the spouses. Yes, husbands need to encouraged and lifted up but so do wives. There sometimes seems to be this idea that men need to be helped and women just need to get it together.
But what about the woman who has an abusive or alcoholic husband or someone who doesn't share the Faith? Or what if is she is physically limited and cannot fulfill traditional sorts of roles? Where does this leave her?
Just today I read the closing address to women from Vatican II. It's really beautiful and in my mind speaks directly to what it is our role is, in whatever circumstance we find ourselves. It's universal to all women and that is essentially what this message must be!
"And now it is to you that we address ourselves, women of all states-girls, wives, mothers and widows, to you also, consecrated virgins and women living alone-you constitute half of the immense human family. As you know, the Church is proud to have glorified and liberated woman, and in the course of the centuries, in diversity of characters, to have brought into relief her basic equality with man. But the hour is coming, in fact has come, when the vocation of woman is being achieved in its fullness, the hour in which woman acquires in the world an influence, an effect and a power never hitherto achieved. That is why, at this moment when the human race is under-going so deep a transformation, women impregnated with the spirit of the Gospel can do so much to aid mankind in not falling.
You women have always had as your lot the protection of the home, the love of beginnings and an understanding of cradles. You are present in the mystery of a life beginning. You offer consolation in the departure of death. Our technology runs the risk of becoming inhuman. Reconcile men with life and above all, we beseech you, watch carefully over the future of our race. Hold back the hand of man who, in a moment of folly, might attempt to destroy human civilization.
Wives, mothers of families, the first educators of the human race in the intimacy of the family circle, pass on to your sons and your daughters the traditions of your fathers at the same time that you prepare them for an unsearchable future. Always remember that by her children a mother belongs to that future which perhaps she will not see.
And you, women living alone, realize what you can accomplish through your dedicated vocation. Society is appealing to you on all sides. Not even families can live without the help of those who have no families. Especially you, consecrated virgins, in a world where egoism and the search for pleasure would become law, be the guardians of purity, unselfishness and piety. Jesus who has given to conjugal love all its plenitudes, has also exalted the renouncement of human love when this is for the sake of divine love and for the service of all.
Lastly, women in trial, who stand upright at the foot of the cross like Mary, you who so often in history have given to men the strength to battle unto the very end and to give witness to the point of martyrdom, aid them now still once more to retain courage in their great undertakings, while at the same time maintaining patience and an esteem for humble beginnings.
Women, you do know how to make truth sweet, tender and accessible, make it your task to bring the spirit of this council into institutions, schools, homes and daily life. Women of the entire universe, whether Christian or non-believing, you to whom life is entrusted at this grave moment in history, it is for you to save the peace of the world. "
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Michele Quigley
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almamater
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Yes, there is no mistaking the strong Protestant overtones of the piece, not to mention being rather sentimental. But, for those of us who must confess to having gone through phases in marriage where we have let ourselves and the household go, for whatever reason, there is some merit in the story. Yes, what the story lacks is substantial, but the overriding concept is very true. I have found this in personal experience time and again with my own beloved spouse and family.
Protestant, Catholic or otherwise, a working man will be much more eager to come home, much better tempered, and more confident/encouraged in his professional life if he comes home to a (relatively) clean home, a wife who prepared herself for him, a clan of children cheerfully welcoming him (in their various quiet or rambunctious ways). Just as a wife will find it easier to do these things for her husband if he is working hard and providing for the family and appreciative of her efforts.
I did not interpret the "don't lift that heavy ladder" part of the story as being necessary literal. But, a husband can feel more satisfied in his role as man/husband if he is allowed, encouraged to do as much of the "man's work" as possible and then is appreciated for it. Just as I sometimes get frustrated when my dh tries to do grocery shopping and laundry...not done the way I like it done, makes me feel inadequate/like a failure.
Naturally there are exceptions as I will sometimes ask him to do these things for me when there is a genuine need and then I am most grateful for his assistance. Likewise, I would never leave my dh begging for help and deny him because it is "his problem" as in Elizabeth's example.
Yes, the story has many flaws, but a few pearls worth saving.
Well, I have to run without doing much proofreading...wish I could save this as a draft...
Interesting conversation!
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~jennifer in tx
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Willa
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JennGM wrote:
| We're helpmates, so a kind of discussion helps. Keeping eyes and ears open will give us a sense that the husband knows what he wants, but he doesn't always express it outright. |
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I do think this is the key. A friend recommended The Five Love Languages to me. The five mentioned are: quality time, words of affirmation, gifts, acts of service, and physical touch. I haven't read it, but I do think that the heart of the message is that "empowering" the husband will look different depending on the individual husband and the relationship.
My mom, for instance, worked as a nurse in the same hospitals that my dad worked as a physician and that meant much to him. They were partners in life goals and in avocation. She didn't do it with a bitter weary heart at all and maybe that's the point of the story.... I don't know. But I know that some husbands don't value perfume and parties and that seems to be the misleading part of the story to me. Couldn't a woman potentially have a weakness for those things herself and use this kind of a story as an excuse to freeload and spend the money that her husband was breaking his back to bring in?
Maybe it would have been better if the counterpoint woman had been a farmer's wife like Jenny only more successful in managing the home like a Proverbs 31 woman..... delegating, planning ahead, preserving a gracious spirit etc.
I spent the whole morning in my husband's home office talking with him -- oh, about lots of things, none of them that important in themselves, just sharing interests and conversation. Did not get "anything done", not even my shower, but meant a lot to him to have some time with me, even with the chronic interruptions of a household of kids.
So for a husband that responds to quality time, as mine does, it is empowering for him -- encouraging and affirming -- when I am willing to devote that time. That is probably more important to him personally REALLY than a well-crafted dinner or a decorative appearance. At least in this context. But I'm not saying those things aren't important. I try not to let my appearance go and I TRY to put nice meals on the table -- my weakness! cooking is more of a trial than wrestling around heavy ladders, to me!
If I ASKED my husband what he thought my highest priorities ought to be he would say something like "that you stay happy". And he would mean it.  But beyond that, I can tell what his priorities are from staying tuned in to him.... they are not always the same in all circumstances... there is a hierarchy. He likes a clean house, but not at the expense of a screaming baby, etc. And above all, he doesn't want me doing things with a frazzled, hurried, miserable spirit so I try to arrange things so there's a Plan A and B and plenty of options for streamlining if necessary. I try to plan ahead, to leave margin for life to have some spontaneity, because that is important to him. I try to smooth his path. I try not to make a big deal when it takes a while to get to the "honey do" lists because I know he's busy and because he extends me the same kind of patience. He likes to have interesting conversations so I try not to get too mentally bogged down in the nitty-gritty of home management and domestic life. I laugh at his jokes -- usually not too challenging a task, since his sense of humor is part of the reason this melancholic fell in love with him originally 25 years ago!
For another husband the details would be different, I'm sure.
I really love him, come to think of it! Digression I guess 
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Willa
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stefoodie
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Loving this discussion, ladies. I do agree with Lisa about the point being BALANCE, or at least that's how I saw it too. It's a reminder I do need to hear time and again, because it's something I all too often ignore, for whatever reason. This morning I was posting a response (until the pc locked up on me) about lamenting to my hubby that in my quest to do A, B, and C, I often have to let D, E, and F go. And then when I ask what I should do, he tells me that what he really thinks needs to happen are G, H, and I....
Sometimes my husband IS happiest when the house is clean, when I'm pretty and happy and cheerful when he comes home, because he *does* treat me like a queen and I suppose there's satisfaction for him in seeing that I *feel* like a queen. Then again that's different from couple to couple.
I suppose one thing that I gathered from the story (and I do note that we all have different interpretations of it) is something I've heard from my old aunts -- something about letting the man be the man. I think that sometimes in my quest to be the perfect helpmeet I'm actually defeating the purpose by starting to encroach on "his territory", instead of just letting him do and be. Most of you probably don't have that problem, but that's the message of the story that really spoke to me. The story didn't feel right in many ways, but there were elements there that I needed to read. This was one of them.
Willa, my hubby is the same way, he wants me to be happy. He wants me to do what makes me happy. We are so blessed to have the hubbies we do!
I'm going to press "post reply" now before I edit for the nth time. Forgive my incoherent rambling, hubby and kids are waiting for me to play Monopoly so I better go. 
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Cheryl
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I guess I really didn't think too deeply when I read the story. In my mind, the point was that if we are burnt out, we really aren't helping our husbands. If we are doing the same thing day after day and our situation is not improving, then maybe it's time to try something new. I think what I liked so much about the story was that there was a change of heart in it. Just like in my all time favorite (unrealistic) movie, It's A Wonderful Life or in Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol. Jennie was feeling despair, but by the end of the story she had hope.
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Patty LeVasseur
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WJFR wrote:
Maybe it would have been better if the counterpoint woman had been a farmer's wife like Jenny only more successful in managing the home like a Proverbs 31 woman..... delegating, planning ahead, preserving a gracious spirit etc.
For another husband the details would be different, I'm sure.
I really love him, come to think of it! Digression I guess |
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Willa, I am sitting here trying to cut your post down to the parts that really spoke to me it really all spoke to me. This was really what I needed to hear. My husband has told me that a clean house and great meals don't mean that much to him (which is kind of bad because that is what I like to do). He has told me that he really values time together and he likes me to be open to doing things on a whim and really nothing makes him happier than to see me happy. And I keep reading in books how important it is to keep a clean house and make great meals to keep my husband happy and I have really been at a loss. So why did it take your post and not what my husband said to make this clear to me--I don't know, I am just slow sometimes. Thank you so much for your post.
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lapazfarm
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Patty I feel the same way. Though I would love to be Martha Stewart, I am not. At all!
I have talked to dh about all this stuff and he just does not find it that important. What he wants to see is that I am happy and productive, the kids are learning, the horses are cared for, he has clean socks and underwear in the drawer, the house is not a disaster, and there is something to eat. As far as dress, he prefers me to wear jeans and nice shirts (he says that's what I was wearing when he fell in love with me, so why would he want me to change)rather than skirts unless we are going to church.
He is really easy to please!
So, as Willa says, it will be different for each husband, thank God, because aren't we wives all different, too?
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Lisbet
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Cheryl, that's an angle of the story I didn't pick up on, thanks for sharing that, it gives me even more to think about!
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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hylabrook1
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This discussion feels to me like a perfect tie-in with the What is Real for you thread. It seems to be "What is real for your marriage." I think everyone has brought out really well that *what men really want* varies with the man, the woman, the situation, etc.
Patty's comments resonated with me -- dh saying that certain things are less important to him, but those are the very things she likes to do. This also connects in my mind with yesterday's Epistle reading from Ephesians 5 --the one about wives being subordinate to their husbands and husbands loving their wives. I think what all of us *really* want is the relationship outlined in that Scripture -- both human members of the marriage putting the needs, preferences, happiness of the other higher than his or her own, personal priorities.
While the story is probably overly particularized as to what those preferences are or should be, I think the idea of subordinating our own agenda to that of our husbands is in there. Where the story seems to fall apart is its implication that the particular agenda it lays out is *the* agenda. In reality, we need to be in communication with our husbands so that we can be clear which particular things we should be working toward, so that we are enabled in our service of our husbands and families.
This is where the Five Languages of Love comes in. What we offer as loving service is not always what our husbands are able to absorb, because their and our love languages are different. Loving and giving and prefering the needs of our husbands, even (especially) when we adapt our expression of love and caring for them to the ways that are most meaningful to them, is an act of Christian love (not *limited to* marital love)
that is based in a dying to self. This is where marriage shows itself to be a vocation, a response to God's love for us all.
Peace,
Nancy
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Elizabeth
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I'm concerned that sometimes the term "mutual submission" is misinterpreted. The woman and the man don't submit to each other. That's impossible—it’s a contradiction in terms. Instead, the man lays down his life for his wife and the wife submits to the authority of the man. She is life giving towards him (and I do mean more than bearing children.) It's important for women to remind themselves that he is indeed, laying down his life--particularly when he works in the world to provide for his wife and children. And her job is to be the encourager to her husband and to make his home a refuge from the trials he faces as he loves them by providing for them. Her job is to be available to love him well, no matter what or how many love languages he has.
This kind of mutual submission will look somewhat different in every household, according to temperament and circumstance. In a healthy marriage, both spouses are aware of what makes the other tick and they are supportive of that. I agree with Willa that the dichotomy of the perfect suit and scented handkerchief against the woman working alongside her husband was disconcerting. Would it have been so bad if the second woman were wearing a denim skirt and gingham shirt, with her hair tucked neatly into an updo? Her life still would have been a wreck if she were still neglecting those duties were are uniquely hers. This is about more than appearances.
The important thing to take from the story, from my perspective, is that we must give proper time and attention to the affairs of our household, the education of our children, and –and this was a real revelation to me—our own wellbeing in order to be a good helpmeet to our husbands. The woman in the story did none of those. Her priorities—her rule of life—were out of whack. Makes me ponder…what’s the Rule of Six for a happy marriage?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Lisbet
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Quote:
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VERY good thing to think about Elizabeth!!
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Bridget
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In the morning, ask him what you can pray for about his day, then do it.
Educate and raise his children well so he is proud of his family.
Make his home pleasant.
Make good food.
When he comes home, greet him with joy.
Be passionate and happy in marital relations, often.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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Kim F
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<<did not interpret the "don't lift that heavy ladder" part of the story as being necessary literal.>>
See for me this is literal. But perhaps the story loses something in an urban setting. For myself and many other farm wives who are trying to homestead while homeschooling and having babies there IS a very real danger that we will get so absorbed doing the physical work outside that the inside of the house and the kids suffer. Yes, they work alongside of us but there is a limit to how much they can do and having them alongside does not make it possible to 'do it all'.
I would not have believed this had I not lived it. My dh always basically said what I ultimately hoped he would at a given time. That he just wanted us happy, that we were fine etc. I think men today are programmed NOT to ask for more or to suggest women could be doing things differently. I used that reasoning for years to sleep a little later, let the standards slip a tad, and to pursue my own agenda projects rather than really addressing the home. I have seen LOTS of farm homes and children who while loved are living in squalor. We were no where near squalor but priorities needed shifting.
After implementing the story's ideals best I could, dh offered on his own to take over ALL my outside chores, including milking my goats by hand. At 5am before work mind you. My job? To get the kids up to help and start breakfast. To keep the house going smoothly. After a couple weeks I am stunned and amazed. Despite what he said lo these 20 yrs he is happier now. And so am I!
I didn't realize that I could have the farm stuff and the house by just rearranging the priorities. Now HE is seeing to it that the animals are cared for and the heavy work is done.
Was it manipulative? I don't think so. I just knew I could do better with what I did. He followed suit. I don't think it occurred to him that it would be appropriate to request more. Nor did it occur to me that he would offer what he did. We both just realized that things work better this way.
I think so much of this is a modern problem. So few of us today grew up with ingrained images of of an ideal functioning family. We are learning as we go. It's too easy to dismiss the idea as sentimental or dated, especially if it means radically changing our system. I am living it though. Its very contemporary and relevant to me!
Kim
Kim
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Wendi DeGrandpr
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Kim - thank you for sharing this perspective. I (Maybe I should start another thread here?) As we add more of a homestead lifestyle to our family I am finding it challenging to "do it all". After reading the story I found myself pondering my choices - not second guessing them, just pondering. Do I keep the house up, how can I better plan and prepare good, nourishing meals (definately a challenge no matter what planner I use), and do I give my children enough of my time individually and as a family unit each day. Anyhow, my dh travels 5 days a week most weeks which means I do the heavy work during the week, the house work, the educating, etc etc. It isn't necessarily how we would like things but for now it is what is. I try very hard to have the house in order when he comes home on Friday evening but depending on his flight schedule I may be greating him in "barn clothes" as opposed to something more flattering. I am going to discuss some of this over the weekend w/ dh as he is not one to complain or demand. He has always said he just wants me to be happy - and I know he makes a sacrifice for that every Monday when he leaves us for the week.
I guess as we work to become more self sufficient I wonder if it is really possible to do so and to educate our children well. (I am merely speaking about our home and my efforts here - not implying anyone else cannot do this.) I am struggling with school in a big way this year - I seem to be great at planning and horrible at implimenting.  I wonder if I have to put my children off too often because the milking has to be done "now". I do include them and they all have chores but things don't flow very well right now. I always envisioned much natural learning and joy in the day to day. I find what feels like "not much learning" and chaos is becoming the norm.  There is definately not enough joy. 
We have had a lot of changes in the past year and I thought I had prepared and planned well - one would think that after doing this for ten years I would know what I am doing.
Sorry so long and rambling - thanks for "listening".
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God Bless,
Wendi
Mom to four blessings
"We can do no great things - only small things with great love." Blessed Mother Teresa
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Cheryl
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Kim F wrote:
So few of us today grew up with ingrained images of of an ideal functioning family. We are learning as we go. It's too easy to dismiss the idea as sentimental or dated, especially if it means radically changing our system. I am living it though. Its very contemporary and relevant to me!
Kim
Kim
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I agree with this. My parents divorced when I was nine. I grew up believing that you should not depend on men.
__________________
Cheryl
Wife to Bob ('97)
Mom to Matthew 13, Joseph 11, Sarah 10, Rachel 6, Hannah almost 4 and Mary 1
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Bridget
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Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Michigan
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Posts: 2198
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| Posted: Nov 04 2006 at 7:11am | IP Logged
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My mom does not have internet but I have been sharing this discussion with her. She would so love to be part of this, she has always been somewhat alone in her views of husbands, wives, and submission.
Thirty years ago she went to a women's conference with her friends, good Catholic women. The speaker referred to serving your husband as you would serve Jesus. He and your children are Jesus for you.
Her friends were insulted by this and still laugh at it to this day when the subject comes up.
Most of the generation before us capitulated to the culture. We ARE on our own in figuring out what a Catholic marriage looks like. The exciting part is that we CARE. We want to figure out what would please God and our husbands in our homes. This fact alone is a blessing to our husbands.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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Wendi DeGrandpr
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Joined: March 02 2005
Location: New Hampshire
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Posts: 246
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| Posted: Nov 04 2006 at 7:14am | IP Logged
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Ditto what Cheryl said only I was 15 when my parents divorced - and my father is on his 4th marriage. I mean no disrespect - I love him dearly I just don't agree with his choices.
I was raised to believe you had to go to college - make a lot of money and take care of yourself because you could never rely on a man to take care of you. Good thing God sent me such a loving and patient man who would hang around while I learned to trust him and rely on him.
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God Bless,
Wendi
Mom to four blessings
"We can do no great things - only small things with great love." Blessed Mother Teresa
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: What men really want.
