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hylabrook1
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| Posted: Oct 06 2006 at 10:53am | IP Logged
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I think you all are making a very valid point -
we must make the decisions about curriculum for OUR children, OUR families, OUR selves (in terms of what we are comfortable with, etc.).
In the elementary grades I use living books, experiments, occaisional pages from other books, to cover whatever is the topic of the moment/year.
As to high school, while I do have a very solid background in the sciences, I don't have time or energy to tackle all of that in so much detail AND the Apologia books are well-received by my dc. When I look through the books, I see a very solid body of information and it's presented in a way that my children handle well. I agree it is pretty dry, but my dc (can't tell you why) have seen all sorts of applications and examples they have commented on in real life. While I admit that I'm a little surprised they can do that after reading the stuff in a *dry* textbook, that is another reason why I find it to be a good approach for OUR family; they are able to apply what they've studied to the world around them, and it seems to increase their appreciation of that world.
That is certainly not to say there are not *good homeschoolers* out there who have very different experiences. It is so good that we are able to make choices!
Peace,
Nancy
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 06 2006 at 5:05pm | IP Logged
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Tracy Q - I loved your point. We do all have many variables, and one reason that I think it helps to say more than just I liked x or I didn't. If I see that someone liked something because it allowed them tons of time to go to the library and add so much real literature in, etc. - then I have a clue as to how well or poorly it might work for me. This gives me a much better idea. I might ask more specific questions cause I might suspect that it is a very loose outline that would drive me nuts - and I like detail that I can read for information even if we don't do/study it all.  . I'd ask a lot of questions before I purchased something like this as loose really drives me nuts (my own little peculiarity or style, I guess). I have 6 children - I know people who do very wonderful things in different ways with 6 children - but I also have learned my own limits. Apologia worked for one child - but in using it I found the lack of detail stressful and because of my uncertainty of the truth or error of the author's claims - I just didn't feel comfortable and found something else. I do not worry about the first child who used it - it served our purpose, she didn't even have a science vocabulary at that point (we didn't do a great job - but she survived, she will have to fill in the gaps as she needs to and she probably really learned more from her 8 yo brother - but wouldn't have done any science without a textbook - so in our case, something was better than nothing). She will get science again in her core college science courses - and at least she'll have a vocabulary to understand the language so to speak. Had I had more of a science background, it may have worked much better. Had I known more, we could have given her a better grounding - but I really don't agonize over this. We did the best we could, we made some huge mistakes - but she is fine.
The other point that I think worth making is that while we review and make the best decision we can in any given year, our children do recover from any mistakes we make. Apologia was doable for my science blocked child - it worked that year. My other children coming up are more science driven, I was unable to help in some areas without more detail in the book (with this dd it wasn't the end of the world that we never quite got one chapter - science isn't her thing), etc. But for my really science minded kids combined with my zilch knowledge of science, I found something I like better that will work for me - I know I need textbooks in science at least by upper elementary.
There is a mom doing our writing class at co-op that told us 2 things - one she had no Geometry and a poor math background in highschool, but she majored in engineering and worked as an engineer for a number of years. She also hated writing all through school - and now she is having a blast with it and teaching the co-op and great at it. (She wasn't homeschooled either so it helps to remember that no matter the situation - homeschool, public school or private school - there are gaps. If our children suddenly decide to do something that we didn't give a superb background on in high school, then they really can pick up and learn it then.
Of course we don't start out wanting to give them anything less than the most perfect education we are able - and it is a sign of our effort how we agonize over sources - and high school really brings out the agonizing. But we do have to also take the information and just do the best we can. If something is working for you - don't change it. If the thought of winging science sends your blood pressure up the roof (it would me), then do it another way. If textbooks make you and your whole family puke - then obviously you're going to find something else to work with, supplement, etc. Some of it will depend on the ages, interests, and background, number of children in the family, energy level, health etc. of both students and teacher. If I could find a tutor - that would be best for me - but in the meantime, I don't stymy over it but I do know we'd learn nothing without a textbook (I tried that with the first and know the result in our household). That doesn't mean I have to panic when I hear the wonderful things that MacBeth's children are doing. I might garnish some ideas for supplements - for fun summer outings, etc. I still benefit from hearing what someone who schools in almost an opposite manner does. I just know that I cannot just transplant their ideas to my home - though I might garnish bits and pieces that enrich our home.
Hope it isn't too stressful to write about what we like and dislike about something we have used - and imo, the more detailed the critique or praise - the more useful it is to all.
Janet
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Oct 06 2006 at 5:32pm | IP Logged
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We are currently using Apologia's physical science because of a good coop opportunity. I noticed the global warming/environmental issues bias right away. I wish I knew enough to even have a clue what he's talking about.
I think I'd flounder without a spine for upper level sciences. Apologia is the most user friendly, but it certainly has its problems. I would love more options.
Janet, how are you feeling about the Holt books Kolbe is using, so far? I'm not sure what's worse...a young earth creationist/anti environmentalism bias or an evolutionary/there is no God bias. 
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Leonie
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| Posted: Oct 06 2006 at 7:09pm | IP Logged
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Tracy, I have state requirements to meet for high school - and for us, living books fit the requirements. The books match the courses, iykwim? We keep a log and a portfolio.
For us, lots of living books and experiments and group activities and outside nature study work for both elementary and high school Science. I think this just evolved for us, over the years, given our seven sons and their personalities and interests. And mine. Unschooly. 
Each to his own, as you said so well. But I felt I needed to explain that it has been okay for us not to use Apologia ( or similar) for high school Science.Just as another option for those so inclined.
And one of my sons did Physics at first year university and did well in this course, in spite of? because of? our living books approach. Aother ended up in a uni Chem programme for "gifted" students. Surprised me!
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 06 2006 at 7:19pm | IP Logged
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The Holt books I've used so far do more basic science - weather, layers of earth, what forms tornadoes, the periodic table and how to read it, etc. I haven't seen anything really funny yet except in the little supplemental meet the scientists section which we generally skip. (We'll read real biographies of any scientist we want to learn more about). There was some environmental science - but nothing off the deep end that I could tell - and we talked about stewardship too so that was fine. There may be some references to millions of years, etc.(I just don't remember because we aren't particularly bothered by that - knowing it is a part of a theory that may or may not be true). Since the church hasn't spoken definitively on this, I don't feel like I have to.
With Kolbe lesson plans (you can get these for $35 without signing up for the school but they aren't necessarily essential), I know the things to skip. They don't necessarily do the book in order and I do follow Kolbe's plans here. Basically the obnoxious stuff - like the genome project scientists are in a little page blurb totally unrelated to the rest of the text (except for general field of science). If I wanted to, I could probably just pull these out - just haven't had time yet and the children using these books love science and experimenting but are not my dc to do lots of extra reading in a textbook.
Basically each unit begins with an experiment, then goes into the children drawing conclusions from the experiment and then builds the lesson from there. The vocabulary is in dark print and more detailed information about the subject is given in detail and a very organized manner with one thing building on another. They are sent to national weather sites to do things. There are many experiments throughout (making their own testing for acid/base using a cabbage, for instance). I really found it primarily interested in basic, foundational science - not a bunch of agendas.
In elementary, Kolbe uses one grade text for 2 years (ie the text we use is half for 5th and half of it for 6th). I start around this grade with mine - my 4th grader is using the same text as my 6th grader right now). We have plenty of time to do our own experiments. I don't hyperventilate if we don't finish a text in the elementary grades. I learn along with my dc, but they mostly do the experiments on their own - and come up with variations on them too or find additional experiments, make nature observations, etc. I really don't mind detouring from the text as opportunities present themselves - so with our co-op we have been doing lots of dissections and microscope work and slip in the text as there is time. But when the co-op is over, we'll go back to the text.
The Prentice Hall Biology we are using for our 9th grader is rather balanced. Evolution is presented as a theory, not a fact. The text acknowledges that there are ethical questions in science without going into overwhelming detail - they are a bit shy of the Catholic understanding of how to resolve these ethical questions but Kolbe's plans have students reading Humanis Generis and Fides et Ratio and thinking about how the text is incomplete when it addresses this and our response as Catholics. The human anatomy is not unduly explicit (Kolbe provides a track for those looking to take the AP test with more information but you can opt for the non-AP track which is less detailed - using the same text, different assignments : there are more detailed supplements for those doing the AP track). There is one diagram in the TB of the male system that I'm a bit uncomfortable with for my daughter (easily covered with a piece of construction paper - paper clipped) but the text itself is not unduly explicit. There is one paragraph that mentions AIDs and the typical recommendation but does state that abstinence and faithfulness is the only sure prevention (we, more than likely, will skip this as I doubt my dd even knows what AIDs is right now) and this is easily covered in conversation as it comes up in life in general. My oldest (science hater) reviewed the book for me and her comment was - you know mom, if I'd had this book, I might have liked science. I think she learned a bit of Biology reviewing the book for me - and she did it on her own without me asking  .
This Biology text has an on-line support through Kolbe enrollment (help, answers and additional experiments demonstrated) and a CD for additional experiments. I cannot say how helpful this is as we have not use it yet - they've been changing the site but it should be up and running soon. It is the best textbook I've seen that suits our need for detail without explicit detail or the typical biology lack of any moral considerations(ie does not seem to presume any prior knowledge but isn't trying to be a s* ed text either). It has the few problems I've noted. I tend to be very protective so many on the board would probably not have much problem with even the things I plan to skip. The Biology is very bright, colorful and attractive. I think the fact that it is so methodical is what helps us - there isn't any skipping around due to agendas. It defines all the words it uses so I don't have to rack my brain about all the stuff I forgot from all my advanced high school science that I don't remember at all. (I took all the college prep sciences, did well in school and learned nothing  )
I do not have a real major problem with my dc being exposed to the theory of evolution so someone pickier than I on this may want to ask me more at the end of the year - and I'll go back and look at specifics. I know if they spent any significant time on all those different varieties of "men", I'd have noticed. I didn't notice a lot of evolution - but there may be an occassional millions of years type thing in these texts. I don't think it was anywhere in the Biology except at the beginning. My apologia trained oldest didn't see anything other than the first section where it introduced evolution as a theory. We read Humanis Generis with that and discuss what Catholics Must believe as a minimum and that all else must be weighed on the strength of the scientific evidence - then leave it at that unless our dc ask more questions. Most of ours tend to choose not to believe in evolution despite this exposure to it - but I am honest, I have my leanings but don't know enough about science - just know what Humanis Generis tells me and don't worry to much as the scientists fight the rest out. (Just where I'm coming from so you know how much weight to give my like/dislike in case we differ on this). If this is a major problem for you PM and I'll try to go back and look more carefully so I can quote, etc. from whichever text you might be considering. I found Kolbe's plans at the high school level very helpful becasue they have the students reading church documents to address any areas that are not fully clear - even the very subtle differences related to ethical considerations.
Janet
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4Real Forums : Exploring God's Creation in Nature and Science
Topic: Apologia
