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momwise
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Kim F wrote:
Considering the position that the current diocesan nfp coordinators have (that grave and serious reasons are not necessary) I do have issues with these courses being required. |
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This is not the Catholic teaching. There must be a way to approach the Bishop to raise concerns.
Kim F wrote:
At the least it would better to have writings from folks like Msgr Burke getting equal footing.
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I probably didn't get this across before, but I agree with this also. I also mentioned in a previous thread I think chaste engaged couples should opt out. It is unfair that they should prepare for a year (here is it 8 or 9 mo.) but it is because of the sad shape of most of our Catholic kids and the past lack of formation; it's not going to be ideal for everyone when the bishop is trying to deal with 85% of his flock using ABC or mutilating themselves and 30% of them aborting. What's even worse is the rotten "Child-safety" courses or whatever they're called that most parish and school staff and volunteers have to sit through.
It was easy for my son and his fiance to skip the NFP classes in their Marriage prep. They just told Fr. they'd do the home study course and then they never did, because they were planning to contracept anyway. It broke my heart that they never took NFP...what little they could have gotten from it would have been way better than nothing.
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StephanieA
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<<<mean "postponing pregnancy." A couple can be practicing NFP to help achieve pregnancy as well. A couple who is ecologically breastfeeding can be said to be practicing NFP, too.>>>>
Dear Dawn,
In no way would the NFP instructors I know personally in our area/state say that my husband and I were practicing NFP when we ecologically breastfeed. And I don't agree at all that I am using NFP. I breastfeed because of the relationship of the child and mother, health reasons, ease of doing of it, etc. Spacing may be a side benefit, although I know 2 women in our LLL meetings that don't want breastfeeding to space their children. They see this "side benefit" as a detriment to them continuing to breastfeed their one year-olds. We have had to stress that maybe the child stills needs that relationship, etc.
To me, NFP is a conscience decision, whether you chart or not. It is also a mind-set - either to conceive or to postpone. To lump NFP and the "benefit" of the spacing of children together, would automatically assume the couple is trying to postpone children, when in fact, this is not the case. After our first was born, my husband wanted a child a year later. (It seemed liked everyone was having their 2nd child  ) My oldest nursed until he was 3 years old, and my cycles didn't return for 18 months. A month after, we were expecting. But dh would have been confused and irritated if he thought we were practing NFP when we really wanted another child.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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StephanieA
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<<<fact mandatory here to take the full classes as well as Christopher West's Theology of the Body class from the time 12 to 2mo before marriage.>>>
This is so sad. While I am not going to get into the Theology of the Body arguments either way ....it is not Church doctrine. To require an idea currently being debated in what many believe should have stayed theological circles is not a great policy. What should be emphasized is Church dogma.
<<<Considering the position that the current diocesan nfp coordinators have (that grave and serious reasons are not necessary) I do have issues with these courses being required. >>>
In reality, this is not the case everywhere. However, I read enough on these issues, have siblings across the US and some teaching at the orthodox Catholic colleges, and sadly this attitude is rampant. Whether in our social circles this attitude is not prevalent is not necessarily indicative of Catholics at large.
I understand the problems that couples are facing today with all the abounding immorality. But presenting the Truth, IMO, is always the best course of action. If I am not sure that the chastity education in my CCD classes are not on the up-and-up, I am not going to send my kids thinking they will at least get something out of them. In reality, they will most likely pick up the crud. Same with NFP. If young couples are taught the wrong attitude, how will this ever lead them to the truth? Again so much lies with the instructors. Forgive me, but I have been reading too much Chesterton lately and he makes so much sense. He doesn't rationalize the truth and in many respects, this is what brought him into the Catholic Church. If we and the Church give our kids the indiluted truth, then we and the Church have done our job correctly. It will then be up to them as adults to make their decisions. Just as Jesus presented the truth to the young man who walked away. No dilution. But we can continue to pray for them.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Elizabeth
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StephanieA wrote:
<<<fact mandatory here to take the full classes as well as Christopher West's Theology of the Body class from the time 12 to 2mo before marriage.>>>
This is so sad. While I am not going to get into the Theology of the Body arguments either way ....it is not Church doctrine. To require an idea currently being debated in what many believe should have stayed theological circles is not a great policy. What should be emphasized is Church dogma. |
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I completely agree. To me, this would be like requiring my children to go to CCD and use books I'm not comfortable with. I really wouldn't want Christopher West shaping my young adult children's view of married love.Hopefully, my children will be open to hearing our own experiences with the Church's teaching on love and marriage and hopefully, once again (as in the case of home education), my parish and my diocese will recognize that my husband and I are the primary educators of our children.
StephanieA wrote:
<<<Considering the position that the current diocesan nfp coordinators have (that grave and serious reasons are not necessary) I do have issues with these courses being required. >>>
In reality, this is not the case everywhere. However, I read enough on these issues, have siblings across the US and some teaching at the orthodox Catholic colleges, and sadly this attitude is rampant. Whether in our social circles this attitude is not prevalent is not necessarily indicative of Catholics at large.
I understand the problems that couples are facing today with all the abounding immorality. But presenting the Truth, IMO, is always the best course of action. If I am not sure that the chastity education in my CCD classes are not on the up-and-up, I am not going to send my kids thinking they will at least get something out of them. In reality, they will most likely pick up the crud. Same with NFP. If young couples are taught the wrong attitude, how will this ever lead them to the truth? Again so much lies with the instructors. Forgive me, but I have been reading too much Chesterton lately and he makes so much sense. He doesn't rationalize the truth and in many respects, this is what brought him into the Catholic Church. If we and the Church give our kids the indiluted truth, then we and the Church have done our job correctly. It will then be up to them as adults to make their decisions. Just as Jesus presented the truth to the young man who walked away. No dilution. But we can continue to pray for them. |
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Again, I totally agree.We had grave reasons, by most measures. And we were so very blessed to have a priest who overruled our pastor (who condoned ABC in our situation) and urged us to be open. Our second son was conceived seven months after I finished cancer treatment. And then we had a baby every two years after that. and each one of those was necessary for the sanctification of my husband and me. Each of one of those brought us closer to God and taught us to walk a little more faithfully. Each time, we learned more about how we are NOT in control, but that He is and his plan is both a mystery and better than anything we could have have foreseen.
Theology of the body as presented in the Magesterium (and not by popular lay people who editorialize) is a bit difficult to understand at first. So is the Real Presence. what a mystery! Where's the science? But we wouldn't just cast aside the Real Presence, saying they're never gonna really "get it," and just focus on the other scaraments. We teach the truth with courage and pray for a conversion of heart. That's exactly what we need to do with the theology of married love. There are so many graces to be had!
It's sad that we need to know the disposition of the people teaching and we can't assume anything.
I also think that many of us have come to understand s*x in marriage and "family planning (or not)" through our own personal experience as we've grown into roles as mothers (and fathers) of large families. I can't speak for anyone else's marriage, but I know the gift that throwing away the chart mentality has been to my marriage. Unfortunately, parents of large families who are still in the throes of raising those families are rarely shaping diocesan or parish policies of marriage prep or married couples' education. They are too busy raising those families. It's kind of a quiet knowledge of what God has shown us a couple. It's not that we don't want to share, it's just that the sharing rarely takes on huge proportions. More often, it's a woman to woman conversation or a dialogue with another couple. Sometimes, it's just the witness of our families and the readily apparent graces.
It's difficult to express--as we've witnessed here. My email on this thread tells me that there are hurt feelings all the way around. We assume the best about each other--that we are all trying to grow in holiness and that we are all seeking the truth, but there is still frustration and there are indeed hurt feelings. Won't you please take a few moments today to pray about this subject and for the people who have shared so generously here?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Martha
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[Is it better than ABC? Yes. I would rather not compare to the sinful however but to an ideal, which even if we cannot always attain we can reach for. At the least it would better to have writings from folks like Msgr Burke getting equal footing. Kim]
I agree. Very well put.
[ elizabeth wrote:
It's difficult to express--as we've witnessed here. My email on this thread tells me that there are hurt feelings all the way around. We assume the best about each other--that we are all trying to grow in holiness and that we are all seeking the truth, but there is still frustration and there are indeed hurt feelings. Won't you please take a few moments today to pray about this subject and for the people who have shared so generously here?]
Yes. It is hard to explain and it is hard not to have our feelings hurt and to become frustrated and discouraged. Prayer is indeed needed for the couples and the priests trying to guide us.
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Dawnie
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Stephanie and Kim,
I was simply trying to point out that the term "practicing NFP" is used rather loosely is some circles. A more accurate term would probably be "fertility awareness," but most of the Catholics I know just say "NFP" and it can mean a variety of things.
The point I was trying to make was that a requirement that says that a mentor couple must be "practicing NFP" might not neccissarily exclude a couple who was simply welcoming children as they came. Perhaps the requirement is simply to ensure that a mentor couple is knowledgeable about NFP so they are able to answer an engaged couple's questions? I assume Kim would know whether this was true or not in her diocese...it's hard to tell exactly what is meant by reading the document she linked to. Sorry I wasn't more clear...I was typing in a brain fog due to a combination of pregnancy brain, low blood sugar, and a late night!
I personally would have been very inspired to have a mentor couple with a big family during marriage preparation. Neither dh or I come from a big family, yet we want to have one ourselves. A mentor couple like one of you could have answered a lot of questions for us and provided a great example! Maybe this would be a way that you could help to change things for the better in your dioceses? We didn't really have much marriage preparation since our marriage was blessed about a year after we married outside the Church.  (disclaimer: I'm not proud of that...I only share it to let you know where I'm coming from).
Dawn
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Marybeth
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We took a NFP course as a requirement before marriage. We were the only ones in the class...it was embrassing at moments for me. That said..it truly was a blessing we took the course b/c it helped with our trying to get pregnant. My dh took all our charts (which were color-coded and very detailed) to our first fertility appointment in 1999. The doctor was so impressed. He wished all his couples would have the knowledge NFP provided. It certainly took the guess work out of it for us...we knew their was a problem...boy we were right!! It helped my health greatly in the end to have those charts.
I have heard of numerous couples saying how NFP saved their marriages...they came to learn about it after they were married...all of them said...if only we knew before what we knew now. We even have a couple in our parish with the license plate TRY NFP!
Sorry if that is distasteful to anyone on the thread. I am just trying to say my experience with NFP led me to a set of wonderful doctors, helped my health and gave me assurance when I was realizing something was seriously wrong with our fertility. I was able to get answers quickly, medicine I needed and peace of knowing what was "wrong" after two years of trying.
I didn't read this thread for a long time figuring it didn't apply to me and my situation. I am glad I had time today to read people's responses. There is much insight and wisdom to be gained by everyone who has written.
Thank you all for sharing.
I do have to admit envy has crept into my heart reading a few posts since our journey to parenthood will never be a surprise or come about through the act of loving my husband. I have to accept this and support those who need someone to listen. I hope I do this for other woman. You have all given me much to reflect on this evening.
Marybeth
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Lisbet
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Marybeth,
I hope you were not hurt by anything here. I ger very passionate on this subject and sometimes (oftentimes) I just don't shut my mouth when I should. I am glad you had a good experiece with NFP. It does indeed have it's place, what a wonderful God we serve!
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Marybeth
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I'm not upset or hurt by anything in this thread. It helped me get out of myself and see how other moms struggle. It can be a dangerous slope for infertile couples to only see the children and not realize the parents needs/struggles/crosses when there is a larger number of children.
I literally had a woman tell me if you could have children biologically you had no crosses in marriage!!!! This coming from a Catholic adament about IVF b/c she didn't know church teaching. Many people don't know the church's teaching about sexuality and married love. My generation especially hasn't been taught properly about the true meaning and purpose for s*x. This Saturday my parents will be married 45 years. My Mom always is saying how at that time every woman she knew was on the same page in regards to marriage. Now we have to constantly defend our choices and beliefs. She doesn't know how you all do it. When she was pregnant in 1974 with my youngest brother she couldn't believe someone told her to take the pill. It still upsets her 32 years later!!
I don't mean to highjack the thread...just wanted to give my input of how NFP helped us medically and brought back many couples we know into the true fullness of the Catholic Church.
Praying for everyone on the forum!
God bless,
Marybeth
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JennGM
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Marybeth wrote:
| I'm not upset or hurt by anything in this thread. It helped me get out of myself and see how other moms struggle. It can be a dangerous slope for infertile couples to only see the children and not realize the parents needs/struggles/crosses when there is a larger number of children. |
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Amen, to that, Marybeth! I always think that my struggles aren't heavier crosses than big families, but different, and this thread has been a wonderful illustration of the burdens you bear.
We have used "NFP" or fertility monitoring to help us conceive. We really don't like it, mostly because it loses the love aspect and focuses on the baby making aspect. Too much micromanaging and navel gazing that can make you go crazy. But you all know that. Some of that charting or monitoring is needed to discuss with the doctor to get indications of what is going on!
Some mom suggested the computer fertility monitor to ease the tension -- one test during the day, no chart, no craziness to try to make sure that you got the CM correct. But low stress...sounds good to me.
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Kim F
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Marybeth and Jenn, I think your situations are a perfect example of a grave and serious reason to use the method! You have a verifiable medical issue that this information may help with. Use it with a clear conscience, as should anyone who is grappling with a difficult medical problem.
As has been stated here before this is emphatically not about nfp being evil, it is about whether or not it is appropriate for all, or even most, Catholic couples all, or even most, of the time. I hope no one implied that it was never acceptable because that would be undeniably wrong!
Kim
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Elizabeth
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Not only are they serious reasons, but using NFP to chart in order to clarify why one is having trouble conceiving is not the same thing at all as using NFP as the default approach to s*x in marriage or using it with a contraceptive mentality. I don't think anyone argues that having the knowledge to understand our bodies is not a good thing.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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ALmom
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Wow, Kim, I've never heard anything like that before - and I agree 100% that making something "mandatory" like that seems way out of line. Is it possible to appeal or complain to higher ups. Is this a diocesan policy or a diocesan policy misapplied? Keep written copies of these policies and see if anyone is willing to fight them. I would never want any of mine having to read a particularly graphic rendition of Pope JP II. I also would find it sad to require chaste couples to wait a year before marriage - and for those who are well-formed not to be able to just skip NFP classes. I've taught NFP before (we are no longer teaching for various reasons - some involve some discomfort with directions taken, with teaching co-ed classes and a lot to do with family situation and the fact that there is someone else making this available in some form locally).
I do think it is reasonable to make a series or some introductory portion of classes normative (not because it should be the norm, but because of the very real mess our world is in) - but not mandatory! I also think that bishops and pastors should very carefully monitor anyone (DRE, religious ed teachers, school teachers, marriage prep speakers, NFP teachers, etc.) that teach in an official capacity to make sure it is an accurate presentation of church teaching - this is their responsibility. It isn't even being done for the seminaries and "Catholic" colleges/Universities. I know at our parish level, it would be almost impossible to accomplish that - and religious ed teachers have not always even been regular Mass attenders. I know there is huge variation in what is presented - even when there is a canned slide presentation/whatever.
I'm not sure there are easy answers for our pastors - as the problems are huge.
Janet
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hopalenik
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Hi,
I am new here and did not bother to read all of the thread only the first couple of passages. I am very supportive of those who choose to have large families completely and totally on God's will. I applaud you but you also need to realize that you are very lucky to be able to do that. I have five children in 7 years and I imagine that there will be one or 2 more but my husband and I have to be very careful for several reasons. I always feel as if I have to justify things to my friends, locally who are devout Catholics. But really the only place that I need to justify that is in the confessional. However, much of the language that was written in the first 10 posts, was very exclusive. Sometimes, the family cannot have another child right away and sometimes those reasons are just not apparent to the outside world.
My second child is a boy. Joshua and his twin were taken by emergency C-section at 31 weeks. His first 2 weeks of life were touch and go because he had respiratory, GI, liver, kidney, and urinary failure. He survived against the statistics of less than 5% chance of survival to kidney tranpslantation. He had a kidney transplant at 15 months and is generally OK now. But his general "maintenance" can be exhausting even when everything is going well. When things go wrong, we have to drive 2 hours away to be seen by his doctor in Boston, as there is not a qualified doctor remotely near us. While we have had 2 other children and a miscarriage since his transplant 4 years ago, every month brings agonizing decisions for us. Does Joshua's health look stable, is Matt's job stable, are the youngest children at a point where they could be watched by friends if a medical disaster occured, how much help can I depend on from my friends? Each pregnancy is spent in much duress becasue we wonder if everything with Joshua is going to be OK at the time of birth-the C section and new baby are nowhere near as frightening as Joshua in the hospital. My husband and I are not opposed to any more children but we do know that we need to space our children in order to keep a little sanity in the family. It is tiring taking a boy to the hospital for labs every 2 weeks, ultrasounds every three months and other more invasive tests every 6 months.
I am not looking for sympathy but trying to express a point. None of us actually knows what is going on in another's family and far too often I have felt the prick of judgementalism from devout Catholics who are being open to life. Often I feel that it is false pride that is bolstering the commentaries on what is truly a grave reason. I am not commenting on any post in particular but I have felt that need to justify things many times in the past five years. I agree that far too many people take the statement about grave reasons far too lightly but I also no that too many people who are completely open to life-inherently look down upon those of us who feel compelled to space out our children by a few extra months. Thank God, that you can be completley open to life. Truly, get down on your knees in gratitude that you are Catholic, have heard the truth and have a life that allows you that complete freedom. For some of us, the cross is that we can not be entirely open and that we need to use our prayers and intelligence to discern when is a good time for openness and when we need to be abstinent.
Please don't think that I am responding to anyone's post in particular as I said I did not read too many of them that closely. But I do think that charity requires us not to second guess another couple.
Sincerely,
Holly
Tara 7, Joshua (kidney transplant at 15 months) and Nadia 5, baby deceased 10/03, Tegan 2, and Keara 4 months
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Kim F
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Holly wrote:
But I do think that charity requires us not to second guess another couple...
Often I feel that it is false pride that is bolstering the commentaries on what is truly a grave reason...
I am new here and did not bother to read all of the thread only the first couple of passages. |
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I am going with the idea that the last line explains the first two. I mean this with all due respect but I do disagree wholeheartedly, having known the women who post on this forum, some of them for many many years now. I think we all bent over backwards to add the disclaimer that noone here expects anyone to disregard a true medical emergency, nor to justify to the rest of us what their circumstances are.
Many of us have lived with true medical crises. My oldest has had annual surgeries, often more frequently, for the first 17-18 yrs of his life. We have spent a good amt of time in NICU and PICUs. Elizabeth is a providential family planner but did use NFP when undergoing chemotherapy. Willa's sons have battled liver disease and transplants. We are not callous to these very real crises that affect families.
If anyone is urging anything it is self evaluation. The exhortations are to individual couples to assess their own situations - not that of others - and to consider whether, in the absence of circumstances like those mentioned above, we ought to be intentially postponing childbearing. Moreover it was a challenge to the commonly held belief nowadays that nfp is required of us and/or that that it is more responsible to plan than to be open. It was not meant to be a judgement.
I think it bears mentioning also that it is the rare woman who conceives and carries all her children easily. Aside from our first child's medical challenges I have had a tremendous cross in preterm labor with most of my pg's. Others have dealt with recurrent miscarriage. More are single parenting a great deal of the time due to their husbands' work schedules. Many who do not feel comfortable posting publicly have dealt with outright marital challenges. Having babies is hard work and entails great sacrifice. The temptation, when one looks at a large family, is to assume it is much easier for them to do it. That just isn't so most of the time.
I am so glad you found the forum. Just wanted to ask that you try to read through all the posts wherever possible. Our general rule of thumb is to assume the very best possible motives unless there is reason to assume otherwise. Once you surf around a bit and hear more of these women's stories I think you may feel differently about this thread.
Kim
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Elizabeth
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Kim F wrote:
| Elizabeth is a providential family planner but did use NFP when undergoing chemotherapy. |
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Actually, birth control pills were part of the protocol during chemotherapy. They surpressed the ovaries. The theory was that if we made them go dormant, they might not be destroyed by the chemo. They were medically indicated for a purpose other than birth control. Indeed, they were part of the plan to protect fertility. And...it was the oncologist who was on the board at CCL who suggested the protocol.
I charted during radiation therapy.
Providentially, I've had seven babies since being treated for cancer.  
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Martha
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Thank you Kim! Very well said.
hopalenik wrote:
Thank God, that you can be completley open to life. Truly, get down on your knees in gratitude that you are Catholic, have heard the truth and have a life that allows you that complete freedom. For some of us, the cross is that we can not be entirely open and that we need to use our prayers and intelligence to discern when is a good time for openness and when we need to be abstinent.
I do think that charity requires us not to second guess another couple.
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I find it interesting you say we should use charity and not second guess another couple, yet your entire posts does just that of many here. Of course, any parent should be gratefull for their family - regardless of size or situation. But you presume we must have some special life that allows us special freedom to have a large family. Often this is not true. My dh is not wealthier or more faithful, we are not always healthier, my pregnancies are certainly not easier than most mothers. Are we not also living lives of prayer and intelligence?
Everyone went out of their way to basicly say, "If you need this - we can understand even if we wouldn't use it under the same situaiton." The thread was about the opposite situation that many large families face. A sense that NFP is required of couples and it is not.
Why is it okay for those with smaller families to say, "Don't judge me - you don't know!" and yet it's perfectly acceptable to tell a large family, "Good Lord, be 'responsible' and use NFP!" Neither are in line with church teachings. We are given the option of NFP, which I agree is a cross to use, but it is not required of anyone. All many of these women are asking is that we be afford the same unconditional welcome for our 8th or 10th baby as anyone would give to a family's 2nd or 3rd addition.
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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Lisbet
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Location: Michigan
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Martha and Kim, both of you make very good points.
I would have to add that it is never always apparent what is going on in any particular family. It is always assumed that my husband has some grand paying job that affords us to have all these children and for me to stay home, totally underestimating what alot of hard work from both of us makes this possible. (he certainly does NOT have a grand paying job!  ) Or that we have no medical issues or pregnancy complications. Not everyone knows that we have 5 little souls in heaven and how neither one of us can shake the hurt we experience from those losses. Miss Molly suffered from respitory issues from birth. She still has frequent apneas and I rarely sleep a wink at night so I can listen to her breath. Once of my children is affected with a form of dwarfism, and on and on...
Then, on the other hand, we are told we are silly, irresponsible, or not using our intelligence if we do not purposefully plan our family.
There's no winning...
We ALL have struggles and crosses to bear. I NEVER assume anything of any family. Yet, SO much is assumed of those of us that have many children.
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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PDyer
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Lisbet wrote:
| We ALL have struggles and crosses to bear. I NEVER assume anything of any family. Yet, SO much is assumed of those of us that have many children. |
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You say, and I completely believe you, that SO much is assumed of those who have many children.
I can also tell you based on my own experience so much is assumed of those who **don't have many children.
I've read earlier on this thread there is much hurt being expressed through this conversation. There was much wisdom in that assessment.
I can't adequately express how sorry I am for everyone's pain.
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Patty
Mom of ds (7/96) and dd (9/01) and two angels (8/95 and 6/08)
Life at Home
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Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
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PDyer wrote:
I've read earlier on this thread there is much hurt being expressed through this conversation. There was much wisdom in that assessment.
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I think that it's really important, particularly with a thread that is this long and this serious, that the entire thread is read before a post is published. You're right, Patty. There has already been much pain expressed.
Since it's two days before a big holiday and since this thread has really taken a lot of moderator time, I'm going to ask that you all refrain from posting further until Friday. I don't want to close the thread. But none of us really has time to give it proper attention. Please understand that we are moms with families who want things to go well here but whose primary responsibilities are at home. If you're itching to reply, please offer it up and pray for all the women who have shared so openly on this thread.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Grave and Serious Reason?
