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StephanieA
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| Posted: Oct 03 2006 at 7:33am | IP Logged
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<<<I hate feeling like we are somehow abnormal, out of control, irresponsible, or overs*xed because we find nfp to be really UNnatural. Honestly I am a bit of a prude but I have never been comfortable with the self exams, the charts of private bodily functions and so on. I know some women find it to be marvelously fascinating biological information. For us it just takes the joy and 'natural' out of the whole event and makes it lab science. Like I said before its not like I havent done it. I just am trying to imagine saintly couples of old keeping these detailed notebooks of medical info to time relations and considering it natural.>>>>
Kim,
This is me too to a tee! Wow. I never heard someone else express it this way. Now I don't feel so odd 
Blessings,
Stephanie
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StephanieA
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I am ps-ing this with something that just came to mind. I can't recall where I saw it but I remember in one of my old old Catholic books they were referencing nfp and said that the decision to use it should be made with the couple's pastor.
I did just this, except it wasn't my pastor, but another priest that I often go to confession to. He listened, paused, smiled, and said, "Remember children are a gift from God. Be open to His gifts." OK. End of discussion He certainly didn't think my reasons were serious enough. Looking back he was right on, but I was too young (and overwhelmed- physically and financially- or at least I thought I was) to understand this in perspective. Blessings on these brave pastoral souls!
BLessings,
Stephanie
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Nina Murphy
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OKay, I'd like to shift gears and present a grave and serious reason I am troubled by and ask for input from you wise souls on this one: the question of maternal depression, and more gravely: maternal mental illness. Now with maternal depression, there are possible solutions one could argue for that should be implemented and tried ---mild anti-depressants, removal if possible of extra stress, including outside schooling and assistance; taking burdens off in the areas of meal provision, housecleaning, childcare; a husband who is very nurturing and supportive, other empathetic moms to talk to once a week, let's say...
But how about with more serious classic mood or thought disorders that are not diagnosed until post-marriage that require neuroleptic or psychotropic medications (specifically: schizophrenia or bi-polar diagnoses) and have symptoms that could possibly render the mother incapable of providing sufficient care for the children, despite all of her good intention to do so.....?
Is this a specific case where a couple is called to permanent abstinence---what is the pastoral solution here? Does anyone have experience with this?
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Yes, we must trust God with these very painful, difficult cases. Why would he send a child to a mother who is ill and at risk? To a family that is instable and where proper care may be neglected? And yet he does. All throughout history, all throughout the world. Into circumstances of extreme poverty, alcoholism, family dysfunction, abuse. God still creates and wills that soul and there it is...to sink or swim. (Not in God's mind, but yes: to society. He holds each of us in the palm of His hand and will not forget or abandon us, "even if the mother should forget....I will never forget you".)
18 painful years of dealing with my brother and with the very real reality of mental illness has given me lots of times for deep prayer and thought about God's plan with those who suffer in the most devastating way of all: "the corruption of the best (the intellect/mind) is the worst". Not being able to control even your concept of what is real, or your feelings to the extreme. How to control the very stressful straining tasks involved in parenting? The ideal is to discern prior to marriage and be heroic and mature enough to sacrifice the good of marriage and embrace a vocation of single celibacy.
But often, as I have seen in my own family, those with mental illness seek comfort and do not want to refuse themselves these goods. Here's something to reflect on: my husband's cousin married a woman, continued to have 7 children (5 of whom have Cystic Fibrosis, she also had a child from another marriage but did not tell him she was married prior); determined she was mentally ill and not capable of caring for the children, ended up divorcing when she left to have an affair and now does not have custody and the father is on His own (and needs a lot of assistance with the children. Thankfully, he is a doctor and in the military and quite a bit of assistance IS provided).
Why did God send child after child to this couple when He KNEW the outcome? When He KNEW how much these children would end up becoming little white martyrs. When He KNEW all of their souls would be at stake (the father gave up on any religous upbringing pretty early on in despair). But He did. Do we believe He did? Or do we believe it was just "chance"? That God allows us to act imprudently and stupidly and sits up there and watches us make selfish choices to conceive and gives up His power and lets us control it? I will not believe in that kind of God. No, I HAVE to believe because these cases are so 'scandalous' to the mind, so impossible to fathom how God could allow, so raw with suffering, I have to believe: that He WANTED IT ANYWAY and THERE IS A PLAN. And that He will use any eternal soul we provide Him, even if they end up being orphaned or intercepted by social workers....they EXIST and can choose to know Him, love Him, and serve Him and get to Heaven.
Does anyone else have thoughts or help on this difficult issue, this grave and serious reason? Please explore this with me.
__________________
God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Martha
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Nina.. all I know is this:
By "reason" and "wisdom" and "calling" standards I and my dh and at least 3 of my dc should not been conceived.
But here we are. Thank God. I believe with all my heart and soul that suffering does have purpose. Just because I am too consumed by my own ignorance to know that purpose doesn't mean that it isn't there or that it has no worth.
If we say only those who suffer not or have reasonable assurance that their children won't suffer unduly should have children we not only refuse a good many souls entrance in the world, we rob ourselves of any chances to offer mercy to our neighbors. How can we receive mercy when we avoid situations that require us to give it?
Would I condemn such a person for using NFP? Absolutely not. Fear is human. But I would not condemn them for not using it either. Children are God physical manisfestation of hope in the world and the future. Who needs it more than such as these people in lives of despair?
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Martha
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Yes, they're all ours!
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Willa
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Nina Murphy wrote:
| Does anyone else have thoughts or help on this difficult issue, this grave and serious reason? Please explore this with me. |
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Just to get things started....
Kids are an unequivocal good.
No matter what -- born out of wedlock, from the "hard cases", born with major disabilities -- no matter what. They are good in themselves.
The mother in Maccabees said:
"I know not how you were formed in my womb, for I neither gave you breath, nor soul, nor life, neither did I frame the limbs of every one of you. But the Creator of the world that formed the nativity of men . . .."
However that does not let the sinners off the hook, those who betrayed your "little white martyrs" (so well put).
Where did the situation you describe go wrong? Not with the birth of the kids -- before and after that, with the way those about them acted (not talking about people who weren't responsible by reasons of mental incapacity, but about people who made choices freely that weren't in the best interests of the kids).
What about kids who are born of responsible parents, but are involved in war, famine, persecution and so on? What about the Holy Innocents martyred by Herod? and the kids killed in the tsunami? The youngest son of the mother in Maccabees, tortured and killed for his faith? So many agonizing things.
I think there are worse things than suffering -- like never having had the chance to suffer, because you didn't exist. But definitely, there is a huge mystery there. I don't want to sound glib. It is something seen through a mirror, darkly. During Aidan's months in the hospital -- so much seemingly random pain, so much that was unnatural from a baby's point of view, a real martyrdom of body and psyche --- it made me wonder -- not question -- but wonder at the mystery of pain. And what about the babies basically abandoned there -- so many little "hospital orphans". But the babies themselves -- wonderful and innocent and loved by God. They are not the problem.
Our priest in last week's homily said that sometimes God uses peoples' evil to make good. In fact, it seems like He does it often. Augustine says "'God judged it better to bring good out of evil, than to suffer no evil to exist.'" God doesn't make evil, but He permits it. He must somehow think free will is worth the risk.
I was reading an article by Msr. Cormac Burke on Augustine. He makes the point that children are the "good" of marriage (among other things, like companionship and pleasure). But he says that though marriage makes legitimate provision for our s*xual nature, our natural concupiscence remains and so marital relations can be misused in various ways.
I wouldn't want to say where things went wrong in the situation you describe. But to use a more obvious example -- A baby born of rape, say, is a good thing in itself, just as much a child of God as anyone else-- but that doesn't exculpate the aggression of its father. Probably much better to have a millstone tied around the neck.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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MicheleQ
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A few days ago I wrote to Msgr. Cormac Burke (who wrote the book Covenanted Happiness) about the HPR article. He replied to me this morning.
Here is what he wrote:
Quote:
Why don't you write the HPR simply pointing out the following:
The need for "serious reasons" in order to practice NFP is clearly taught in Humanae vitae: "If, then, there are serious motives to space out births, which derive from the physical or psychological conditions of husband and wife, or from external conditions, the Church teaches that it is then licit to take into account the natural rhythms immanent in the generative functions, for the use of marriage in the infecund periods only, and in this way to regulate birth without offending the moral principles which have been recalled earlier" (no. 16).
This continues to be the teaching of the Church. In his Encyclical, Evangelium Vitae (1995), John Paul II says: "In its true meaning, responsible procreation requires couples to be obedient to the Lord's call and to act as faithful interpreters of his plan. This happens when the family is generously open to new lives, and when couples maintain an attitude of openness and service to life, even if, for serious reasons and in respect for the moral law, they choose to avoid a new birth for the time being or indefinitely" (no. 97).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992) says "For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children..." ["just" = "proportionate", proportionate, that is, to the seriousness of the decision; trivial or selfish reasons would not be just].
The Compendium of the Catechism (2005), in answer to the question, "When is it moral to regulate births?", replies: "The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods" (no. 497).
The more we pray, the less time it will take for things to settle.
Every blessing. |
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Nina Murphy
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Thank you, Martha and Willa, for responding-- first of all. Thank you for such thoughtful responses, second of all. And thank you for giving me something to meditate on as I go throughout my difficult day, last of all.
__________________
God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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ALmom
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May I throw out a suggestion:
Would moms in difficult situations be willing to share things that would be helpful in sharing their crosses.
I don't think it is particularly helpful to judge a person - ie did they chose well or ill - that is between the soul and God. I must assume they did unless the action itself is objectively evil - ie murder, contraception - then I must judge only the action not the culpability of the individual.
When it comes to decisions regarding the discernment of couples in determining whether God is calling them to use NFP or simply to keep on going, neither are objectively sinful actions, therefore, I have no business making judgements. Imo, it is best for me to assume that they are good souls, making heroic choices and try to tangibly support them in carrying their crosses, whatever they may be. If God rewards a person for giving a cup of water in His name, then surely we will share in the heroic virtue of these people as we offer support and love. By communicating needs, not only is someone helped to help, but the helper is in turn helped.
Sometimes people are simply awkward and don't know what to do in the face of overwhelming sorrow. I remember my college roommates father's sudden death - I was stunned and so sorry for her sorrow. All I could do was hug her and say how sorry I was. I felt totally inadequate and felt like this was nothing. Later she told me that was the most comforting - it was so hard for her to put up with the standard platitudes, though well-meant. It is something I have always remembered.
I know meals are often helpful, etc. But perhaps moms could share what would be most helpful and supportive. Just a thought. I know most of us don't live tangibly close to one another - but the suggestions may help us support someone in our area in similiar circumstances.
Janet
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Dawnie
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ALmom wrote:
Would moms in difficult situations be willing to share things that would be helpful in sharing their crosses...I know meals are often helpful, etc. But perhaps moms could share what would be most helpful and supportive. Just a thought. I know most of us don't live tangibly close to one another - but the suggestions may help us support someone in our area in similiar circumstances.
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Janet,
Having suffered from postpartum depression and depression in general, one of the most helpful things to me is contact w/ other mothers. When I was struggling w/ depression after my last baby was born, I tried to arrange things so I could spend time w/ a friend at least once a week. This was hard at times, b/c I really lacked the motivation to set things like that up. Meals and help w/ housework are always help during tough times, and for me, this is what I experience the most anxiety over...feeling like I just can't do it all. In my case, very few of my friends knew that I was depressed. I told a very few just b/c I needed them to watch my kids so that I could make my counseling appointments. My dh knew, but out of all my extended family, only my sister knew. I know that probably made it hard for anyone to offer me support, since they didn't know I needed it. But if you know that a mom is depressed, or maybe just suspect it, I think it would be helpful to initiate playdates or whatever with her...call her up and ask her over for lunch, or set up a playdate, or something so that she can be around another mother.
Being active on these boards helps me to keep a realistic perspective...when I see that other moms are dealing w/ the same problems and anxieties that I am, I don't feel so alone or beat myself up over "doing it wrong." I can recognize easier that I'm being irrational.
Thankfully, I was in amenorrhea for 18 months after my last baby was born, so I didn't really have to deal w/ the question of whether or not postpartum depression was a just reason to postpone pregnancy. That would have been a very difficult decision, though, and I'm not sure what dh and I would have decided had my cycles returned earlier. By the time my cycles did return, I was feeling much better, the depression had resolved, and we were wanting another baby.
Dawn
__________________
Mom to Mary Beth (99), Anna (02), Lucia (04), Clara (06), and Adelaide Victoria (2/28/09)
Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
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Nina Murphy
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[/QUOTE: Dawn
Being active on these boards helps me to keep a realistic perspective...when I see that other moms are dealing w/ the same problems and anxieties that I am, I don't feel so alone or beat myself up over "doing it wrong." I can recognize easier that I'm being irrational. [/QUOTE]
So true.
---------------
I thank you, Dawn, for attacking this (and from your personal experience). Your perspective is highly valued.
__________________
God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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humanaevitae
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Some jumbled thoughts...
I suffer from severe morning sickness for all 9 months. The only way I stay out of the hospital is to lay down. Even then I constantly feel like I have the stomach flu as my stomach hurts.
With my last 2 I have had hip problems starting around M5 where I will suddenly be unable to walk. I am unable to carry anyone as I have had them hurt when I end up on the ground.
I know some of you here have similar pregancies. However I tend to get more discouraged and frustrated when other moms "think" they know how I feel or what I am going through. It is hard to hear about how even though they feel queasy all day, they just keep their mind off it by going on with their routine. This is so different from my reality of gagging/puking and having to wear Depends.
This thread is difficult to read as we are using NFP to space more children. Are we exhibiting a lack of trust in God?
My younger children have had to stay with relatives during parts of my pregnancies. Is this what God wants for our family? Are we really just called to have as many babies as we physically can regardless of our ability to take care of them? I'm a bit confused.....
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Nicole-Zane 10, Elizabeth 7, Xavier 4, and John Patrick 2
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ALmom
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Dawn:
Thanks for the suggestions. I hope there are more. I'll add a few of my own.
I know a few things not to do when someone has had a miscarriage - from experience. I was told repeatedly that it was for the best, since something was probably wrong with the baby and it was Gods way (or nature's way) of taking care of it. This made me so angry inside even while I tried to understand that the person was trying to help. But why would something wrong with the baby make it somehow less right for that baby to live. I really appreciated the personal notes of sympathy that acknowledged our baby as having existed and the simple hugs and I'm sorry.
I did not have a d&C with any of my miscarriages and they were early so people assumed that I was fine - didn't need meals, etc. One woman agonized with my mom about what to do - should she send a sympathy card or a get well card(my mom wisely told her to send the sympathy card). All those cards are saved in a scrapbook celebrating that life - they are the only tangibles we have of that child's life other than the memories of about 10 weeks. We were so excited and calculated precisely what was developing at what point.
A meal in the early days right after misscarriage would have been so appreciated (even without a D&C)- both as an aknowledgement that I had something to grieve about and the realization that it does take time to feel functional again. I also needed people's shoulders to cry on and people who would listen to me talk about our baby and what had happened. I didn't need people telling me that if I couldn't snap out of it, I needed to see someone - intense grief after a loss is normal after all. People tended to want you to jump right up and jump into life again within a couple of days - I simply needed a little more time.
One thing that was immensely helpful to me was someone who hugged me, let me cry, and then shared something that helped me understand my dh - she reminded me that men and women grieve differently. I think my dh appreciated knowing that my intense emotions were normal. I know it helped me to realize that my dh was trying to be strong for me so he just didn't seem to care on the outside. I also learned to ask my dh directly for things I needed.
Anyways, I guess one thought that came to my mind is that I think my role is to try and support and not worry terribly much about why a person needs support. Does it really matter?
Also further up someone had quite a few comments about how NFP is presented and I did want to clarify. We were never pleased with our talks (nothing is ever perfect, we always wanted to say so much more) - but we always presented the full message - and did emphasis the children are a blessing and the norm, that reasons must be sufficiently serious in order to use NFP and if there are serious reasons then only NFP is permissable if there is that need. Now how exactly we phrased this in any given 10 minute talk is hard to remember - this may have come across to someone sensitive that we were implying that you could not just trust to God - this was never intended by us. Had it even occured to me that someone would take it this way, I would have found some way to reword what I said - and we did go back and add emphasis when something came to our attention. I also allowed a time for questioning after each talk and would have welcomed someone asking something if they felt I had not been complete. Instead of asking me, they complained to a relative - on at least two occassions this got back to me (the relative was a friend of ours and asked me directly about it). They thought we had different couples doing the talk and repeated the information to us by way of frustration. In one case, we were accused of being harsh, in another not emphasizing the teaching for children enough - but I had said so much about children - the person thought I intended everyone to use NFP because I used the phrase NFP-only in grave and serious reasons - but I had said that if you use something, then NFP-only - perhaps my voice was too soft and they didn't hear this(I know after this, we made sure that we addes something about not saying people are obligated to use NFP - just that it is an option when there are sufficiently serious reasons). I understand the feeling of lack of support on the part of church representatives - I really do. I understand how this makes us sensitive to things. I just want us to be careful about how we can (and I'm not saying anyone has) jump to conclusions when simply speaking up can correct something easily for everyone. I also understand what has been said about some of the presentations and actual teaching. We always spent so much time emphasizing the beauty of children, the great gift of fertility, the real need to pray and not make decisions in fear or selfishness - the goal being to find what is the will of God here (and we said it very much like that). I am not a perfect phraser of things - but we did the best we could, and I know we were faithful to what the church teaches in its totality. We always tried to improve. Our biggest fault was going over on time. We also were totally without tangible support from the local environment - never sure we'd really have a room (even though reserved), odd comments from other parishioners (one thought we were teaching for Planned Parenthood  , someone else thought it was natural childbirth classes, the deacon would announce that my dh would not agree with him at the RCIA classes when the issue came up (and there were oddities being presented here), etc., etc. We rarely taught Catholics - but there was one conversion to Catholicism that the wife attributed to the materials. The biggest success we had was passing out H.V. after Mass (72 copies picked up). We placed the stack near a parish picnic sign and people would siddle over out of curiousity to pick one up. (Rather interesting watching how quickly they shoved those H.V. into their pockets or purses). We simply had done a very, very short presentation right before the final blessing. I simply said that this was the xth anniversary of the publication of H.V. A beautiful document on family life that is widely criticized and rarely read. There were free copies available in the back of the church for anyone interested. (I get very livid when homilies, or talks go into too much detail for the children in our midst - or that drag on and on. We have been subjected to this on a continual basis and we complained about even doing the talk - but researched what the church does allow and agreed to a very short talk provided Father approved - we'd had politicians speak so I didn't think it would be a major issue. I do know that poor Father was quite surprised and I think pleased by our brevity.
I think that if you use NFP and feel it as a cross, that is a good sign. That decision is made in sorrow - and continually re-evaluated. It is prudent to get good spiritual direction, but be sure it isn't someone that is going to tell you to contracept - which is common here.
I was awkward teaching (am not public speaker, hate being in front of a group) but we felt that we really should teach as we were the only qualified couple. I didn't want people to feel pressure from everyone to do what is objectively evil. I wanted to provide them with what the church has given as an option. It is not marriage insurance, it is not contraception, it is not about effectiveness, except that is a legitimate question when a couple is confronted with a very troubling situation and it does help them to make a true decision even if they are not totally formed yet. It gives ground for God to work. I've seen over and over a real joy in listening to God. There is something about being patient with people even as you repeat the truth over and over again. But I didn't go interfering in couples personal choices (I don't know what hidden things couples are dealing with that is none of my business.) We didn't have to be NFP users - and I guess we were a witness to the openness to life - as we answered questions. We taught every single class we offered, pregnant with another baby  .
One thing I find very odd in our society is the total carelessness in speaking of intimate matters. My husband's co-workers will tell him about their bc, etc., etc. I will say that the main reason we are no longer teaching has to do with family and health - but other factors are that there is someone else in the area offering classes, I felt increasingly uncomfortable with the discussions in mixed company and never did like the comparison charts we had to teach from (I always expressed my personal distaste for these as if something objectively wrong could be compared to something legitimate) and we always rephrased/ added to things to emphasise the beauty of children and the generosity in the service of life. We also emphasized the need for sufficiently serious reasons.
I personally did enjoy knowing about my body - it was through this that I was able to try and correct imbalances in my body nutritionally so that we could conceive. I consistently had indications of a problem that was never identified by blood tests. In the realm of seeking pregnancy, NFP was tons more natural than the testing and interventions we would have been faced with. We also had the information to know the immorality of certain testing and refused - these are often standard, first tests in infertility.
I am really, really sorry if I haven't sounded clear - but there is a lot of suffering all the way around and I think that it is perfectly legitimate for one couple to find that NFP is not what they are to do and another to find it a support in living generously for God. I really believe we can support one another regardless and I find that something inspiring about this whole board.
None of us knows the struggles, sorrows or hurts of another. I know that things are well meaning here - and I realize that a lot of you know each other so there are things that are understood between you that I won't always pick up on. I realize that some of the discussion about not using NFP is not saying other couples cannot - I didn't pick up on that at first - and my response was more to keep a balance. I'm not saying that NFP is not open for abuse in general - but when there are specific couples, you really don't know. Maybe they only have 2 kids and drive a fancy car - but there could be plenty of things that they should not feel they have to share to justify their decision - just as someone should not feel a need to explain that they are not out of control because they have many children. NFP being available should not be an excuse for simple, ugly rudeness - which is what either situation really is. Perhaps it is not that NFP is available that is the real problem - but the increasingly rude and immoral atmosphere around us - which has nothing to do with NFP.
Janet
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Dawnie
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Janet,
I posted up the thread with "quite a few comments" about how NFP is presented...I hope you didn't take my post as a criticism. I'm sure you and your dh did the best you could under the circumstances, which sounded pretty difficult to me. I am very lucky to live in a diocese where most of the priests are very faithful to the the Church's teachings. We also have an NFP Office that takes care of scheduling for us. My intention, which probably came across poorly, was to open some dialogue about how we could improve the way NFP is presented and promoted, b/c that seems to be an issue w/ many of the women who have posted on this thread. I don't think the answer is to just throw NFP out altogether, as there are many couples who have a legitamate need to space their children or even limit their family size altogether, but to change the way it is presented and promoted.
HumanaeVitae wrote:
This thread is difficult to read as we are using NFP to space more children. Are we exhibiting a lack of trust in God?
My younger children have had to stay with relatives during parts of my pregnancies. Is this what God wants for our family? Are we really just called to have as many babies as we physically can regardless of our ability to take care of them? I'm a bit confused..... |
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I think Janet addressed this concern perfectly:
ALMom wrote:
| but there is a lot of suffering all the way around and I think that it is perfectly legitimate for one couple to find that NFP is not what they are to do and another to find it a support in living generously for God. I really believe we can support one another regardless and I find that something inspiring about this whole board. |
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Humanaevitae, I doubt that anyone on this thread meant to criticize a couple in a situation like yours. Many of the ladies who are "letting the babies come as they may" are simply longing for some support from the Catholics around them. Ultimately, this is a decision between you, your dh, and the Lord. It's my understanding that the ordinary call of God to married couples is to have children, but, the Church also teaches us that using NFP is okay for couples who have just reasons to postpone pregnancy. In my undertanding, this is kind of like the Church's teaching on our Sunday obligation to attend Mass. Yes, we are obligated to attend Mass on Sunday, BUT we can be excused from our obligation for a serious reason. So if you're home sick with the flu, you would not be committing a sin by not going to Mass.
I am sorry your pregnancies have been so tough. I have absolutely nothing to complain about in comparison! I really admire you for accepting that suffering. Your kids have a really heroic mom. 
Dawn
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KellyJ
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| Posted: Oct 03 2006 at 6:58pm | IP Logged
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I just wanted to say that I love "hearing" all of you discussing these topics. I'm often teary-eyed, saying, "Yes, yes!"
Please let us pray for all married couples. Not everyone has the benefit of your beautiful perspective; may God touch all hearts with profound love and regard such as you express here.
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ALmom
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Dawn: I think we were both trying to say the same thing. I didn't think you were addressing me or accusing me of not giving the whole message, though a bit of my own pride does want to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. I figure we were both saying that, yes, we do need to look at how something is presented. I guess I felt a little bad for the author of the article and wanted to emphasize that we should be careful about jumping to conclusions about a presentation - This guy has a history of supporting the church teaching after all and if something was unclear, it seems to me that a charitable drawing attention to how the article was interpreted would bring about relief and clarification for anything that wasn't clear to anyone. I think some space should be given him and anyone who teaches - but I don't mean hiding your feelings or not correcting errors - just being careful to assume good intent in the process. I really think we should be careful. I think it would be helpful to share how hurtful the article was if that was the case for an individual - but don't jump all over him and give him some space, assume good intent and a desire to do the right thing. I don't think he was trying to say someone was irresponsible for not using NFP. When we are hurt, we can sometimes jump to conclusions not just about what was said but about intent and so forth. Sometimes it is easy for us to misread someone else becasue of our own hurt. I am not saying the moms were doing this, I really doubt they were and think rather they were glad to find someone else following a like path so that they could communicate with someone who understood intimately where they were coming from (and all of us have that need to be understood). There has been too much charity on this board to think otherwise. I just felt from the discussion that it could easily be misunderstood to be jumping on the author and might feel a bit like a slam against NFP users, so I threw in a reminder (actually knew of Willa at the time from earlier posts of hers)that yes, these women deserve support in their suffering - but so do the women who for whatever reason need to follow the promptings of God and use NFP in their situation. In my mind these women are just as heroic and both need support (we all do in our own individual crosses, we all have them to some degree or another).
I do want and believe that these moms should get the support of the church for choosing the path they have - not condemnation or ridicule and if wording something differently would help, then I am sure this author and any of us would be willing to do so. I also think that women in either situation should not feel forced to have to explain or justify their circumstances. And I do think that it is important to talk to someone else in your shoes from time to time (and I know this board is serving a need in that area for lots of us).
I know that I can be extra sensitive when things have built up over time. I have to be extra careful to recognize that I am capable of misunderstanding someone or even assuming that all that we can do is suffer in silence. I have done this myself in other areas (so fed up with the shenanigans at the parish level that I felt unable to do anything and sometimes will complain about the minor when the major stuff has just built up over time). I struggle with this sense of spiritual isolation in different areas - mostly in how little support we get in providing for our teens spiritual and social needs and in the experimentation with liturgy and being judged as being unwilling to belong (when I long to feel that but cannot join the clubs or send my dc to the activities very often). I have found that now that I'm older and probably tireder, I simply don't have as much trouble expressing myself and figure some will understand and some won't. The result has been pleasantly surprising. Things were actually done to accomodate my dds on at least 2 occassions so that they could participate in something. Yes it is hard always being a bit different, seeming to ask for "special favors", etc. but it has been worth saying something.
I do think we want to see an improvement in the presentations - and my basic point is that sometimes the best way to do this is to share how something hurts us - of course they didn't mean to - I doubt they were trying to say someone is irresponsible for simply deciding to do nothing.
I guess one thing I am hearing from these moms is the need for affirmation - perhaps this author would enjoy writing an article about the possibility of this choice of doing nothing ? You won't know unless someone approaches him about how the article hit you personally.
Humanae Vitae - I hope my posts didn't sound like we taught NFP just as a stop gap. I believe with all my heart that NFP is a blessing to many, it is not about one way being more heroic than another. It is all about finding God's call in our own circumstances. We have the clear guidance of the church with regards to many things here - but also a great deal of responsibility to weigh our reasons in prayer before God. I emphasized this in our classes because often people didn't know about the requirement for sufficiently serious reasons (and you really do not have to be on your death bed for there to be sufficiently serious reasons). The church has not declared this is sufficiently serious, this is not but gave a general list of things to be considered. The Holy Father did emphasize that decisions not be made just to the interest of our own convenience or comfort - but to the good of all. What I hear you and Willa saying is that you are well aware of these things, have weighed them and continue to do so. The church has not given us any more specific information so that leaves the final decision to the discernment of the couple. These are heroic decisions in difficult circumstances - and you don't owe any of us an explanation of why you use NFP. As an individual - what contributed to anyones decision to use NFP (or even that they are using it) is none of my business. As a teacher or in any presentation of church teaching - then the obligation is there to make sure the truth in its entirety is taught and communicated. The author of the article starting this thread has this obligation. (This is a tremendous repsonsibility and burden for those who teach NFP and from those I know, it weighed on our hearts heavily as we felt the weight of sin if we failed in this. Pray for those who teach NFP, pray for those who counsel couples, pray for your priests. I felt a weight if at any time a careless word, lack of charity or some such would further close someone's mind - at the same time knowing that failing to teach the whole truth would be a sin and I would be responsible before God for this. It is quite difficult to be clearly truthful without coming across as a know it all or arrogant - but couples deserved both gentleness with weaknesses and often years of neglected catechesis, a sensitivity to the difficulty of learning a method and the intimacy of some of what required sharing in order to learn (trying to minimize any intrusion in privacy to what was really essential and no more) and a certain discretion in discussions, review, etc. (when the desire might have been to have more dc but the call from God seemed to be saying no at the moment and no one that I know jumps up and down with showing someone else charts of something so intimate - that in itself can be a source of suffering), a sensitivity to infertile couples learning and struggling with their own heartaches, and the whole truth. This is what we tried to do - but not being perfect, I trust that God is merciful for any errors we inadvertantly made and pray that no couple will ever be harmed by these).
Why is it that in our day and time, how many children you have, whether you use bc or other intimate details of your life with your spouse are fodder for conversation. I really think we need to restore a reserve in conversation (and one of my recommendations to NFP presentations is for this to be done in a way that more honors this - perhaps husbands addressing the men and wives the women in seperate sessions). I may sound really far out on this one - but I see this lack of reserve as underlying a lot of the insulting comments most of us have been subjected to. "Don't you know what causes that?, "Is this your last?" etc., etc. OR to think that it is perfectly OK to ask someone if or what they do to postpone, or prevent pregnancy - or presume to advise them that they should investigate ways to plan a family - or to presume to tell someone they aren't Catholic enough because they aren't having as many babies as biology allows (and I really have seen this too)isn't this just all plain rude. I find it shocking that women at work will tell my dh how they "took care of things" meaning to hint that maybe we should do likewise. How could they even bring themselves to speak to my dh about something so intimate - as if they were an animal. People fail to even see that these are outright rude and impolite ways to converse. To presume to have a right to know anything about the decisions a couple will make or any other intimate practices is abhorrently rude and inappropriate.
Yet, we want to herd a bunch of teens together and give them talks (abhorrent, abhorrent!) Perhaps some have been given way too much info in a ps setting - but don't discuss it as a group. Let mom talk to her daughters and dads talk to their sons. IF someone needs help, they can come to the church, a trusted friend, etc. and ask for support or support could be offered on an individual basis. Let children know the need to be reserved about their feelings, to guard their hearts, to be modest in speech, behaviour, dress. We are not supposed to bare our souls to every stranger we meet.
OOps - sorry for my little rant - I don't mean to digress. I just see lack of reserve as so connected to the suffering of women as expressed here. Restore reserve and a lot of this suffering will disappear simply by discretion and polite reserve in leaving intimate topics intimate.
Janet
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StephanieA
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>>>I find it shocking that women at work will tell my dh how they "took care of things" meaning to hint that maybe we should do likewise. How could they even bring themselves to speak to my dh about something so intimate - as if they were an animal. >>>>
No kidding! My husband works in an office full of women with rude comments. Last pregnancy they graphically told dh how to get fixed, that it wouldn't hurt so much if he used a bag of frozen peas, and they would cover for him at work. Geeze! Consequently no one knows that we are expecting in January at his office. He'll just get the guff after the baby is born.
The kids aren't exempt either. I took 2 of the girls (age 12 and 9) to violin lessons last week and the teacher asked them if they wanted a baby brother or sister. She then informed them that her youngest son wanted a little brother, but wouldn't even consider that because she was done with having kids. She said she is considering a dog for him because they are a lot easier to care for.
As if these girls REALLY need to hear this from everyone -which is about the case because this is the 3rd time they have been spoken to specifically about my pregnancy negatively in front of me.
Our kids just had better get use to it, because change is going to be slow. Our positive attitude is going to have to be SO strong to counteract society.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Willa
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ALmom wrote:
| Why is it that in our day and time, how many children you have, whether you use bc or other intimate details of your life with your spouse are fodder for conversation. I really think we need to restore a reserve in conversation (and one of my recommendations to NFP presentations is for this to be done in a way that more honors this - perhaps husbands addressing the men and wives the women in seperate sessions). |
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Thanks Janet for your thoughts. I was thinking about this the other day. I think it was on One MOre Soul that I read an article which talked about NFP and mentioned that it was acceptable and even advisable to seek counsel and support from friends around you. This is what I think, HOPE, we are doing here. I would not be able to have that perspective -- the counsel and support -- if I didn't have this online community.
Also in the same line, I've had many people talk to me about my childbearing choices but in extremely respectful terms -- sometimes almost wistful. For example, when Aidan was in the hospital at San Francisco for several months -- often the nurses would confide in me that they would love another child but work and finances made it difficult, etc. This seemed to me to be an attempt to reach out, perhaps, for a different perspective -- a counter-cultural one that they might not hear from anyone else. So I could talk about the blessings of children, even in straitened economic circumstances, even when one child was ill and might very well not make it.
On the other hand, I know most of us have heard the rude comments as well -- I've been blessed to avoid most of them, but there have been a couple of occasions.... and of course, many people don't mean to be rude but simply don't understand at all what we're trying to do -- they're completely baffled and it shows.
I agree with you, Janet, that there are sometimes when people are inappropriate in their questions, comments and advice. IF no one ever made the rude, immodest comments there wouldn't be the burden that some of us feel now. The rude immodest comments aren't just targeted to large families either -- I have several infertile friends who have been deeply hurt by comments both from worldly people "Oh, I see you are being sensible and waiting till you are established to have a baby" and even from Catholics who openly judge them to be worldly because they have one or two children or the children come several years apart. This is so sad and unfortunately, I think there are temptations even for devout Catholics to be immodest and inappropriately judgemental about other peoples' childbearing. This is not what's happening on this forum in my view but it does happen in other places and that is probably partly what you are talking about, Janet.
However, I suppose it is one of the easiest and most readily available ways to be "persecuted for Christ" in our day and location! We don't get many opportunities for this -- unlikely to get thrown into jail or endure civil or political inequities directly for being Catholic. Yet Christ loves those who mourn, are poor, are mocked and humiliated for His sake.
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Willa
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ALmom
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Thanks, Willa, for your thoughts and for making me really think a bit more about what I said. Yes, there is a difference between seeking support and counsel and the casual conversation that makes everybody's business my own. I suspect lack of reserve is a bigger problem in the south where folks tend to be chatty anyways. I don't particularly see a problem with a nostalgic - gee wish we were having another. But when you are getting into specific biology or signs - I just think a bit more privacy is in order.
Obviously it is legitimate to discuss details in circumstances that truely require it and I guess where you are teaching tons of couples with few teachers, there is no way around it. We really preferred teaching one couple at a time and I'd love that option to be available for those who really do find the group setting particularly difficult.
I don't see a problem with asking a close friend, a confessor, etc. for counsel in difficult circumstances - it just is not the subject of casual conversation or idle nosiness. I don't mind someone asking me what options there are in seeking information that isn't readily available - that is legitimate or even asking certain questions that might be considered more personal as part of a process of weighing for themselves what they might be called to do. Asking what we do out of idle curiousity is rude. Even ruder, is asking so that they can tell us what we ought to be doing. Modesty and reserve in speech has more to do with not speaking unnecessarily, not speaking in idleness, being conscious of the time and place (article I was reading discussed talking in church before Mass starts is immodest because it is out of place - it is also rude for the same reason and because it is hurtful to those doing what is proper to the occassion which is praying and preparing for Mass.)
I don't have problems with general discussions here - I just know that I can sometimes forget that this is a public board and have regretted a few times feeling like I shared too many details of our own struggles or those of my dc. I do sometimes wonder if I am being imprudent in saying too much and it is wise to keep in mind that this is a public forum. I have a whole lot to learn here as I am from the chatty south - and we tend to have whole conversations with total strangers (there is a certain friendliness here, but small talk and sharing intimate details with strangers are different) and I grew up when we were trained to tell everyone how it made you feel. Reserve in speech was intentionally broken down. One of my nephews even was on a retreat where the ice-breaker was "tell the person next to you the color of your undies " This is some of why I am hesitant to send my dc to activities sponsored by these same people - only now I don't hesitate to explain why if asked. It is this sense of time and place and decorum that has totally broken down.
But you do have a really good point in that we often don't even know anyone in our local area that we could get support from - so despite the fact that this is a public forum, it may be the only means for some to fill this need and I know people here are always very careful to speak in more general terms and for a purpose so I am not saying we shouldn't discuss here at all. I'd love to see more thoughts on this.
Many of the really rude comments are from total strangers accousting you with your children in the grocery store and saying something in front of them - generally as idle conversation starters or as a means of telling you what you should or should not be doing. Stephanie - we actually experienced exactly what you describe except the mom volunteered to my dc that they took care of it so they wouldn't have any more (fortunately my dc are rather inattentive at times and didn't pick up on any of this and it didn't bring up any questions). Almost every rude comment directed at us has been in front of dc. My sis was even asked how many children were hers and how many were his while their family was trying to enjoy a rare opportunity to eat out.
And, yes, Willa, we too know couples who have been very deeply hurt by fellow Catholics while struggling with infertility - assuming that they weren't generous because they didn't have more children. Careless wording of something like vocations come from large families when what is really meant is vocations come from families that are generous with God whether there are 2 or 20 children, I think is similiar to the phrasing "in serious cases then NFP-only" when the assumption really is that if you see God calling you to limit family size in your sufficiently serious circumstances, then only NFP is allowed. I do think it is important for all of us to be cautious and sensitive. But it is also important for us to understand and overlook these little careless slips from time to time. Yet when there is a pattern, an ingrained habitual acceptance permeating all of society, then perhaps it is helpful to find a tactful way to bring it out for the benefit of all. I don't know - just pondering a bit here. I know when we announced one of our pregnancies the priest responded with, "Oh no" in front of my dc - much to my shock. Now he was a very kind priest and I really think he didn't think about what he said. I guess I could have ignored it but this is such an habitual response to children from society at large that perhaps a kind drawing attention - plus to make sure my dc were not scandalized, it did make sense to come back with "Oh Father don't say that - you know how precious this baby is and we are so, so excited - wouldn't you give us a blessing?" No one else was around, Father was not embarrassed and he very happily celebrated our baby with us. He was a very, very humble priest and I do think he appreciated our light hearted response (we weren't mad or anything and actually the response wasn't premeditated - just came out)as a reminder that the secular world does creep into the comments of all of us from time to time. Now, most of the time (and I know other moms do this too), I respond to the rude comments by ignoring the slights and saying something positive about the dc and the joy that they are - this is truthful even on a bad day because they truely are a joy and blessing even if you are standing in line with a screaming baby and several toddlers who just want to go home while the checker is waiting on someone who is taking forever to find the price of an item. I'm wondering if there is some way to express shock at the rude question without being rude myself. Perhaps just the horror on my face will get the message across that the question is inappropriate. I know this opened my eyes to the need to train one of my dc in being less greedy/rude when a friend's child was silently stunned by one of my dc behaviors . It was a blessing for me because it opened my eyes to something I needed to work on with that child. Yes, we'll still experience the sting of the comments and it will take many, many years (probably long after we are child-bearing ourselves) but it seems that it will just keep on going unless someone, somewhere, somehow brings attention to the fact that this really is rude.
I know this is a source of suffering and should be welcomed when it comes - but we should work to infuse the world with Christian values - and one is the sense of modesty which means much more than simply modesty in dress. I don't normally read or subscribe to the Latin Mass magazine but I just got a complimentary copy today with a really great discussion of modesty (it was in relation to the Mass, but I think the basic concepts could be applied to this discussion). Has anyone else seen this?
Janet
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Lisbet
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I know this discussion has been cool for awhile, I just wanted to share a thought I recently had on this topic. It's been mentioned how since the Church condones NFP that we should not require more of couples than the Church does, which I totally agree with. I certainly do not judge or chastize anyone using NFP at all. BUT, I have realized that there are those so, well, zealous of promoting NFP, giving those that do not use it, or even care to know it, all kinds of flack. There are dioces where a course in NFP is required for engaged couples (I know this is not terribly common, but it is out there).
If a couple feels there is no reason for them to know, use or learn NFP, yet are 'required' to learn it, or made to feel irresponsible, well, isn't that expecting more from them than what the Church requires too?
The Church accepts NFP, She does not REQUIRE it ~ right?
Forgive me if I am beating a dead horse here.
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kaw912
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In response to Lisbet's last post -
I am very sorry that there are Catholics who make you feel that you are somehow doing something wrong with being so open to life. The Church, of course, does not teach that people are required to use NFP to limit or space their children, and I can understand your frustration with those who make you feel that you are somehow "doing something wrong" because you don't use NFP.
However, I take issue with those who say that it is a bad thing for Parishes or Dioceses to require engaged couples to take an NFP class. Sadly, the vast majority (something like 90 %) of couples walking into a priest's office at a typical American Catholic Parish asking to be married in the Church are doing so with the full intention of using artificial contraception after marriage, and most are probably already using contraception before marriage to avoid pregnancy resulting from premarital relations that they are engaging in. Requiring an NFP class is the best way to present the Church's true teaching on marriage and offer an alternative to those who are contracepting/are planning to contracept. I honestly doubt that anyone who is fully aware and accepts the Church's teaching that contraception is evil and plans to be totally open to whatever number of children God sends them are goiong to walk away from an NFP class saying "Oh, I didn't know that we were SUPPOSED to use NFP so we don't have 10 kids". Rather, the purpose of requiring NFP classes is meant to address those couples who are planning to contracept in order to wait at least three years to start having kids, and then have two kids three years apart, and then get sterilized. These couples sadly outnumber the couples already planning to be totally open to life by leaps and bounds.
Kathy in VA
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