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JennGM
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Bridget wrote:
WJFR wrote:
We were at my oldest's college campus yesterday -- it was raining a bit, cloudy and SO green, and the whole seven of them were playing football on the field. Everyone from the 20 year old -- he is a sophomore and looks so grown up these days, but will still roughhouse and scrimmage with his siblings -- down to the 3 year old. I felt so HAPPY and blessed that I had all of them
BUT OH -- at the same time I felt such a longing for another child that it was almost physical. |
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I had one of those meltdowns just this afternoon. Yesterday we took a picture of the kids with my parents. I was looking at it today and realized that there might never be any more babies in that picture. My baby is working hard on being a toddler and my toddler is working hard on being a big boy. And my big boy is the size of a man. Sigh.  |
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Is it this time of year? I'm coming from a different experience of infertility problems, but seeing my son turn 3 and not having others coming behind me has made my heart and arms ache for another child even more than usual. Dh was wondering why I was just sobbing one night...and it wasn't my typical hormone time.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Family in Feast and Feria
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ALmom
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You and other parents that I know who have grappled with grave and serious reasons and discerning what God wants for them - there is a heartache and a gift in the use of NFP and I hear this enough from couples and see a great spirit of generosity here (regardless of which way God has led). It is you, Willa, and other couples like you whom I think of when I remind people that sometimes it is heroic generosity to use NFP to abstain/postpone. It is not "what I desire" but what "God desires for us." After all that is the real nutshell in the spiritual life - conforming my will to God's in all things. I know others seem much better at this - I tend to be stubborn and slow, but God keeps nudging me with the trials that come. We each receive the crosses best suited for us - and at some point in this life there are crosses. When I'm philosophical I can see these crosses as from the loving hand of God (generally not when they are happening to me  ) - but then when I'm in the midst of my own cross, I run kicking and screaming and forget to trust. What a rebellous child I am - and how thankful I am that God is a patient God. Thank all of you women for your example. It is hard on message boards because I have never really met any of you - so sometimes don't know the background from which you are coming, but know that the hearts here are loving hearts.
I know there were some folks in our area that really caused a lot of pain in that they were very vocal about NFP being selfish or even expressing judgement on people because of the number of children (and there are those who will criticize someone for too many and those who will for not having enough). But these people are totally missing the point and it means that instead of helping one another bear the burdens, there was a placeing of additional burdens on them by the blindness and lack of charity.
I always believe it is best to assume the best in people - especially in an area that is no one else's business anyways! I am so glad to find this as the attitude of the members here. I know that we had some written stuff circulating around here (turns out it was originating from a schismatic leaning group) but was confusing a lot of people because of its portrayal of NFP as total error with no justification for ever using it (a good clue that somehow this was an erroneous piece as it was not in line with the church's documents). Yet it still caused confusion, it was very hurtful to some, etc., etc. When you are faced with something like this, you really want to let people know that NFP is legitimate. If that was the author's intent (and this sounds probable considering the background reported), then sometimes the other mistake is made inadvertantly. Often there are word/time limits that are very restrictive. I know we struggled with presentations to engaged couples (we have taught, since retired, from teaching NFP for many years). Most of the time we were presenting to people (we only had 10 minutes total with them) and were sandwhiched between people who basically gave very hard to pinpoint where they were coming from (more feel good than meat imo) talks about decision making. Those were the hardest talks we gave as we tried to convey both that NFP was not rhythm or contraception and that we are called to generosity, the default is children and the great joy in children, etc. I will tell you that I never ever felt we did a really good job (how can you in 10 minutes without any real knowledge of the couples and when your message was subtley undermined from all angles and you are not a public speaker but the only one who could even do the talk). I remember saying that not everyone needs to do anything at all, but that it is helpful to already have a certain awareness, confidence, etc. as another piece of armor against the tremendous pressures that are brought down on you the minute there is a serious/grave reason. I do know that we never ever got a response (very discouraging to say the least). Some(not the couples and not anyone that ever heard our talk - but other NFP teacher's that read it) said it might come across too judgemental (we felt we had to be clear on what the church has said since no one else seemed to bother to tell the couples this) but also tried to be honest that we didn't come to our convictions out of holiness - but out of my dh very scientific mind - and God used that as a gentle way to remind us that He is the author of life after all and this is not about what we want but about what He wills as best for us. We were totally open to any suggestions, criticisms, and I found it helpful to hear from someone else how the talk may have come across. Often the talks were criticized indirectly and it got back to us (without people knowing we were the ones that had given the talk). I always told them we had given the talk - explained where we were coming from - and tried to learn better ways to say things that had obviously not been understood the way we meant them. I will say from the bottom of my heart that we always prayed about those talks, struggled with them and if it had been our choice, we'd never have done them. But we felt called to try and give these couples the church's teaching, make sure they had documents from the church that maybe they would read someday and tried to plant the seed in trust that somewhere, God would call someone to water it and bring it to fruition. We certainly never saw any results. But it was hard to have everything you said jumped on - I had no problem with those approaching us with understanding that we were making an effort to try to pass on the beauty of the church's teaching and have some suggestions that might go over better (sometimes we agreed, sometimes we didn't - I just never could be indirect about the teachings as I felt that these couples deserved a clear, unequivacol presentation of the church's teaching). I guess some take more of the tack like our dd English teacher, in writing an essay, he does not want them to have the standard intro sentence. He wants them to draw the reader in first before revealing their own opinion and reasons (if they come on strong in the first sentence, they could turn the reader off before they start - and then never have a chance to present their arguements. If I'd had as much time as I wanted, maybe we could have done this and been effective. But in the environment and with maximum of 10 min., there just wasn't a lot of time and if nothing else, I wanted these people to at least go away with what the church has taught. The experience has certainly taught me to try and remember how hard it is to put yourself out there - and how easy it is to be misunderstood. I do think we should engage each other in discussion of the most prudential way to get the message out - and I do think it is important to gently and charitably point out how the article came across in a personal way to you (ie they are likely to hear from those who think they just aren't with it, etc. but may not hear how the article has been used in a skewed way to promote what the church does not promote (if this were my article, I'd want to know this was how it was being used and quoted so I could write in response - but I have to hear from someone to know this). I really think that it is important to charitably let someone know if the article came across unbalanced. I always felt such a burden in these talks - really wanting to get the full message across. If we seemed more one way or another on a given talk, we really wanted to adjust it and clarify if we could - because we felt such a responsibility to express the teachings clearly, charitably and completely in this area. Please do assume the best in the author of these articles. Going out there and putting what you think in print or in public is very, very difficult You try to be faithful - and generally the whole world is shouting against you. I know you know this. But I also think that sometimes we carry a background in our head and in countering one fallacious arguement, we can be misinterpreted (or quoted out of context or heard wrong from someone who misunderstood where we were coming from, etc., etc. ) I would suspect that an author might like an opportunity to clarify if they have been misunderstood or didn't get their point across as clearly as they wanted. Even the Vatican has had to do this with pronouncements couched in language that Americans take as a legal requirement and the Vatican intended as not replacing long standing tradition (receiving Communion kneeling comes to mind where the Vatican finally sent out a letter to clarfy that those choosing to receive kneeling are not to be viewed as in disobedience, etc..).
Just some rambling thoughts.
Janet
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Martha
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OH you ladies do well to remind me that I will miss these times that try the souls of mothers - to rewrite a famous quote. 
You ladies are looking near the end of your baby days. But I have 8 and am in the unique situation of seeing the very real posibility of one day being a mother of 12+ at the current "rate of production"!  
And, for me, it is a genuine mixed emotion to contemplate. I am willing to accept them all. I'd like to skip the physical tramas though. In short, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
My current solution to this issue is to avoid contemplating it.
eta: I don't give much thought to what others are doing or not doing. NFP is not for us & never will be for various reasons, some of which have nothing to do with faith.
I love where de Sales says, "You only want to bear the crosses that you chose." I have reached the point where I am more than willing to joyfully bear this cross that I have not chosen. I guess it is just a bitter pill to find so often that the Church whom I love so dearly is often so unsupportive. I can deal with the secular lonelyness. It's the spiritual loneliness that hurts at times.
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Martha
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Bridget
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Martha wrote:
You ladies are looking near the end of your baby days. But I have 8 and am in the unique situation of seeing the very real posibility of one day being a mother of 12+ at the current "rate of production"!
And, for me, it is a genuine mixed emotion to contemplate. I am willing to accept them all. I'd like to skip the physical tramas though. In short, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
My current solution to this issue is to avoid contemplating it. |
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Good plan.
I'm jealous. In spite of the really heavy workload and physical hardships, the joy of more children outweighs the challenges for me. I always wanted to have them into the double digits.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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Kim F
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My current solution to this issue is to avoid contemplating it>>
Personally I find that to be a highly workable solution lol! I remember reading the quiverfull digest years back and people would have stories about families who expected to have 20 kids and ended up suddenly at the end of childbearing. Sometimes a tragedy. Sometimes a health problem. Sometimes, as with a friend of mine they just never got pg again. Just like that. God only knows!
I do struggle with the idea that we are requied to abstain (use nfp) due to high risk of health problems. Our first child has spina bifida which occurs roughly 1 out of a thousand births. After the first child in a family however the recurrence rates jump to one in 20.
We have not had a recurrence although baby 7 has webbed toes likely requiring surgery and baby 8 has a (fortunately mild) case of microtia - an incompletely formed ear. He has had one surgery already and will require more at age 4 or 5.
In reading about the Miller family of MN who had 20 some children you learn that some 3 or 4 of them I think had a chromosomal disorder causing significant retardation. There is no mention of them feeling obligated to stop conceiving because of the genetic risk.
I think it comes back down to how we feel about these physical problems. What causes them? Is having them better or worse than never being born? I had to answer those questions through pg 6 when I finally told the (mandatory) genetic counselor I felt our odds of having a handicapped child were about 100% if God willed that and about zero if He didn't. Truly that is how I feel. I can't worship the god of statistics because that one baffles me every time.
Also while I wish for excellent health for our children I realize few of the saints had it. Look how many died young from disease. Look at the Martin family who lost child after child and then the mother. People DID think they were crazy to keep concieving judging by the personal letters quoted in their biography.
On a personal note while we have abstained between some pgs I know that in order to attain any degree of success at postponing I would have to abstain for the better part of the month. Between long menses and long fertile periods there are a precious few days right before and after each. Maybe 9 or 10 all said. That did not make for a happy marriage. I just can't believe it is Gods will that we spend 3 out of 4 weeks saying no. (trust me I have tested that window - about half a dozen times with the same results lol! ; ))
So anyway, rambling. I can't say what others should do. Just that I am sensitive to the suggestion we are obligated to use nfp. It is for women like us that I wish we could turn back the clock to pre-nfp days. Not that it would change our health issues but that people would consider them more an act of God than of us.
Kim
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MicheleQ
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Kim F wrote:
Personally I find that to be a highly workable solution lol! I remember reading the quiverfull digest years back and people would have stories about families who expected to have 20 kids and ended up suddenly at the end of childbearing. Sometimes a tragedy. Sometimes a health problem. Sometimes, as with a friend of mine they just never got pg again. Just like that. God only knows!
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This is so very true. I had my fist baby at just barely 18 so my "potential" was for many. Yes, 10 IS many but I'm talking more like 15 or 20. The thing is, for a while I took my fertility for granted. I had had one miscarriage after baby #4 but then two successful pregnancies followed. But suddenly after baby #6 I had three miscarriages in a row and then trouble conceiving at all. Through all that I realized that I was not really seeing all this as a gift but more of a given. I don't anymore. And while I could conceivably (no pun intended) have several more children I also realize that I may well not. Only God knows. At this point I am just ever so grateful for every single one. But then I know you all are too!
God bless,
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Lisbet
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Kim, how beautifully eloquent and wise.
I also wish we could turn back the NFP-clock, but not for health reasons. My husband and I are very blessed with good health, healthy pregnancies, healthy babies, decent job, etc... and uber-fertility. With all that said, there are many that say to us "there is NFP ya know" As if we are doing something wrong, or we should stop or slow down. (I get this about breastfeeding ALOT, my fertility comes back WAY soon, I have been accused of doing something "wrong" with breastfeeding also.!)
Martha you and I are certainly "cyber-sisters"!! We have very much in common. I know there are no guarentees, and I really don't like thinking in terms of numbers, but sometimes I do, and I realize if we continue this way, we could have lotsa children one day!!
The physical part is not at all a burden for me. I truely relish in the hard work that comes with this gig, the burden on my heart is, what you called "spiritual lonelyness". That can be painful at times. And, when the secular world puts its nose in my business, that exhausts me.
I can't concern myself with who's using NFP and why, I just wish others would offer me the same in return. (not here of course, all this I deal with in my family and even caring friends)
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Nina Murphy
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This has been the most amazing thread. Wow. I just don't know what to say right now.
Kim, thank you for sharing about your children's special needs. Some heroes of mine (my dd Mary's godparents) have a precious first child with Spina Bifida. They were young parents. I'll never forget what they told us: we knew we had to do...pray/try for another one as soon as possible to give that child a sibling and to create a home where she was not treated in such a different way that she felt *different*. They never catered to her and made her the center. They expected a lot because they had hope. She ended up shocking the docs when she didn't need a new shunt at a later age.(Much better than my two with CF who are spoiled and one of them: very difficult.)
They welcomed one child after another, despite it being exhausting. But that girl always had a smile and always was and is taken care of by that group of siblings. And what it did for the siblings to have her, as well. They are an amazing family who scream faith. But have been hassled a lot by the medical community. We just have to accept that "society" won't understand and think we're inflicting sufferings on innocents on purpose, and not trusting God with HIS decision for them to suffer.
(I actually act very immaturely and try to obscure my belly for as long as possible when I go into Clinic appt.s. so I don't have to deal with it----it's that draining on me with the CF community.....a community that recommends stopping after the one child is diagnosed.)
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~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Lisbet
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Kim and Nina,
I know this is minute compared to what your children have/are going through, but I wanted to pass along to you something my husband said to me when Molly was in the NICU with respitory distress just after her birth. This was the first time we had to transport to the hospital, the first time a child of ours had anything worse than a cold. I am downright ashamed with how I dealt with it too.
We were at Molly's bedside, she was hooked up to an IV, she had a tube down her throat, CPAP through her nose, had her tiny little heel poked every 30 minutes, and all kinds of other discomfort. I was crying in Tony's arms and I kept asking why why why would God let this tiny, helpless little person suffer. It seemed so pointless to me, she was so little, tender, and fresh. I felt I should be able to take it all away from her.
Then my husband, in his masculine way, told me to back off!!!! He said "This little girl belongs to God, not you, God is allowing her to suffer for a reason. You need to back off and leave this between her and God, He wants what's best for her even more than we do, and only He knows what that is!"
I know it sounds harsh, my husband is truely a very gentle man, but he also knew that I needed that. I needed a 'slap in the face' reminder of who she really belonged to.
After dealing with just that tiny sliver of watching my child suffer, I am in total awe of mothers such as yourselves. Your strength, trust, and faith are truely inspiring.
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Taffy
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Lisbet wrote:
| He said "This little girl belongs to God, not you, God is allowing her to suffer for a reason. You need to back off and leave this between her and God, He wants what's best for her even more than we do, and only He knows what that is!" |
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Your husband is a wise man!  I'm going to keep this thought close to my heart - it's beautiful!
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Susan
Mom to 5 on earth and 1 in heaven
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Dawnie
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Kim F wrote:
| I do struggle with the idea that we are requied to abstain (use nfp) due to high risk of health problems. |
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Kim,
I am wondering if you are referring to the article that started this whole discussion or the attitude of some people in the Church? After reading the article, I thought that the author was explaining when a couple may use NFP, not when they must.
I have read other authors who outline situations in which a couple might actually be obligated to use NFP, but I don't agree with them, as this is something that is between a couple and God.
In fact, I'm wondering, has the Church ever said there are situations in which a couple MUST use NFP? Maybe that's another thread.
Janet, I totally understand where you are coming from. My dh and I teach NFP, too, and have given a few talks, which I am always SO uncomfortable giving. I can only speak for ourselves, but I know that in our classes, we do give a balanced presentation of Church teaching. We tell our students that children are a blessing, encourage our engaged couples not to postpone pregnancy unneccissarily, and tell our students that they must have a just reason to use NFP to postpone pregnancy. It's very frustrating to see so many of them "not getting it." I've had students actually roll their eyes and make other non-verbal gestures to show they disagreed during the section of the class where we present Church teaching.
There is definately a great need for some honest discussion among NFP teachers and promoters about how to best teach and promote NFP. My personal view is that we need to stop presenting NFP as a romantic practice that will act as marriage insurance. Using NFP certainly can help foster communication and mutual respect, but it doesn't happen automatically and using it won't automatically make your marriage great. I have personally found that it takes a lot more than just using NFP to have a happy marriage! Some of you may be familiar w/ Sam and Bethany Torode, the authors of the book Open Embrace. They were a Protestant couple who "re-thought" birth control and came to the conclusion that it was not so good. Recently, they have publically changed their opinion on birth control and 5 years and 3 babies later, are angry that no one told them that using NFP could mean a month or more of abstinance. We certainly don't want people going back to contraception b/c NFP was mis-represented to them. I think it would be better to be upfront about the challenges involved. I think that knowing that NFP is challenging and a privation would also help couples determine whether their reasons were truly just or not. For dh and I, a less-than-just reason for postponing pregnancy just does not provide the motivation for 2 or more weeks of abstinance (which is typical for me).
I also think we need to stop comparing NFP to contraception when promoting it. I think this perpetuates the mindset that children are a burden and that they should be planned. Even couples who use NFP will talk about "surprise" pregnancies...if a couple is having relations at all, they should not be surprised if a pregnancy occurs, even if they followed the rules perfectly! Marital relations are procreative, and they retain the procreative quality even when a couple is in an apparantly infertile time. The contraceptive movement has taught many, even practicing Catholics, that they can separate s*x and procreation, and this is a lie. There are no 100% "safe" days. There are only days when conception is less likely than other days. It would be great if everyone who uses NFP "gets it" the way that Willa does. She and her dh have discerned that they have a just reason for using NFP, they recognize it as a privation, and they would welcome more children if God sent them...she and her dh know that conception is possible and they accept that possibility, they're not betting against it.
I think we should focus on promoting Church teaching, ensuring that all Catholics know that children are a blessing, contraception is a mortal sin (that's serious stuff, people!), and that it is permissible to use NFP for a just reason (not just any reason). I love what someone else on this board said about responsible parenthood...that responsible parenthood means accepting the responsibility of raising and educating children, not neccissarily planning each one!
Finally, I think that the finger-wagging among NFP teachers and promoters and other Catholics needs to stop. Another teacher recently said something to me about how we showed that NFP "worked" b/c all our children were planned. I'll share the truth with you guys...they are not all perfectly "planned" in the way the world would consider "planned." But dh and I knew each time we had relations that we could conceive and we were okay with that. So I can't say that any of them are surprises! They are all spaced 2-3 years apart, but that is b/c of when my cycles return and God's timing, not b/c of fabulous self-control on our part! NFP teachers (and Catholics in general) should not be under pressure to "prove" to contraceptors that NFP works.
My kids are going nuts and I've already spent wayyy too much time typing...I've really enjoyed following this discussion! Thanks for entertaining my .02!
Dawn
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Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
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Nina Murphy
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Well, Lisa. You're a better woman than I.
I will never get the images out of my mind or heart of those first days with my preemie son. His scrawny little bones, stretched the way they were, the tape, the tubes going in out, his face obscured by the tape of the nasal cannula and the eyes covered for the lights...appeared like a little crucified Jesus. I have never experienced pain as a mother like that and I was a mentally, physcially, and spiritually exhausted and emotional wreck. My husband reacted in a completely different way and did not deal well with my reactions to the raw pain. So...we often had moments of just keeping to ourselves and processing the pain differently. It was a tense time. And I was not appreciating his words to me in the slightest!
But it's good to hear other husbands say similar reasonable rational non-emotional things at traumatic times! 
As a side: I remember being told the prematurity and complications (of my body) were more a mandate for NFP than the "risks" of a child with an inherited autosomal recessive disorder like Cystic Fibrosis.
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~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Kim F
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Even couples who use NFP will talk about "surprise" pregnancies...>>
Or the 'user error' and 'method error' and 'lack of motivation' comments in the books. : /
It isn't the Church herself saying we are obligated. It is the comments about necessary privation and such. I think it is assumed in Catholic culture. I have had very orthodox friends discussing our obligations to be self controlled and saying 'the marriage bed is not a free-for-all'.That flies in the face of St Paul who said we were not to deny each other except for short periods of prayer and fasting. I don't think he had multiple weeks per month in mind.
I hate feeling like we are somehow abnormal, out of control, irresponsible, or overs*xed because we find nfp to be really UNnatural. Honestly I am a bit of a prude but I have never been comfortable with the self exams, the charts of private bodily functions and so on. I know some women find it to be marvelously fascinating biological information. For us it just takes the joy and 'natural' out of the whole event and makes it lab science. Like I said before its not like I havent done it. I just am trying to imagine saintly couples of old keeping these detailed notebooks of medical info to time relations and considering it natural.
Kim
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Willa
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Kim F wrote:
| It isn't the Church herself saying we are obligated. It is the comments about necessary privation and such. I think it is assumed in Catholic culture. I have had very orthodox friends discussing our obligations to be self controlled and saying 'the marriage bed is not a free-for-all'.That flies in the face of St Paul who said we were not to deny each other except for short periods of prayer and fasting. I don't think he had multiple weeks per month in mind. |
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It's astounding to me that anyone would accuse you of lack of self-control. That takes a lot of nerve -- wow.
I don't think the Church "obligates" anyone to use any kind of conjugal abstinence. I have never seen that said on real magisterial authority, though if there is such a statement, I'd like to hear about it. The Church does counsel prudence -- prudence is about discerning one's own situation in the light of eternity, judging, and acting accordingly, so the outcome varies from person to person or in this case from couple to couple.
However, the part about St Paul sounds like the Protestant argument for providentialism -- I used to be on the quiverfull list and heard it there, often. But to us, the Catholic Church interprets Scripture, and apparently does not think periodic abstinence (or permanent) conflicts with St Paul's recommendations. Unless we propose that Humanae Vitae was wrong, and the previous Church documents on the subject, I don't think it's possible to use St Paul to prohibit conjugal abstinence.
Come to think of it, if the Church DID condemn abstinence in marriage it would have to condemn St Joseph and Our Mother Mary and other couples who chose to live celibate lives in the early days of the Church.
IS there anything in Church teachings that says that a Catholic form of providentialism is actually BETTER (objectively speaking) than using NFP in the "hard cases"? I went looking for information on this subject back when Aidan was a baby -- and couldn't really find anything that weighed the two on a scale and found one objectively better than the other. So I concluded it was subjective -- within the parameters of the Church -- that while some might be called to leave conception up to Providence, others might not be.
But if there is anything different in Church teachings, I would really, really, really like to know. I didn't find anything, and I have looked several times through the years.
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Willa
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chicken lady
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Lisa your post was VERY moving to me, your husband's words, reminded me of a lovely women at my dear Oliver's wake. She came up to me and simply said "they don't belong to us". I was so profoundly touched, it was that "slap" of reality I needed and continue to need. Thank you for posting.
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Kim F
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I don't find providentialism to be Prot per se since it was the only form of family planning for most of time. And the only way to say it is wrong is to suggest nfp would be better or mandatory and of course it isn't.
I do feel very uncomfortable with the idea of 'calling'. To me this is more likely to have a Prot origin. How do we know it is a Divine call and not just a hunch or our subconscience? To me that is a much riskier proposition. I have had prot friends certain that they were called to all manner of things we know can't be of God.They prayed and God told them to do such and so. I am not saying God doesn't direct but to me it is a very difficult thing to rely upon and so fraught with potential problems.
Also the issue of Mary and Joseph or other saints who practiced celibacy would tend imo to fall more accurately under St Paul's intention - prayer and fasting - since they were doing it purposes other than to not conceive. That was the by-product of the choice, a secondary effect vs a primary motivation. Had they done it simply to avoid conception they would have fallen under the Church's condemnation for not being open to life.
Anyway I don't believe the Church calls us to abstain so I want to clarify that. Nor does the Church forbid periodic abstinence. Much of this is just personal ramblings about how I think it is being implemented and promoted today.
I am ps-ing this with something that just came to mind. I can't recall where I saw it but I remember in one of my old old Catholic books they were referencing nfp and said that the decision to use it should be made with the couple's pastor. Of course that might be a dicey proposition for some people today but it sheds light on the 'calling' issue. At least in the early days of nfp couples were encouraged to seek counsel from their pastors to confirm that they were on the right track with abstinence. That was a wonderful safety net imo.
Kim
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Martha
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Lisbet wrote:
| With all that said, there are many that say to us "there is NFP ya know" As if we are doing something wrong, or we should stop or slow down. (I get this about breastfeeding ALOT, my fertility comes back WAY soon, I have been accused of doing something "wrong" with breastfeeding also.!) |
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 yep. I've heard that too! Yeah, 8 kids and I don't know how to breastfeed.
lisbet wrote:
| The physical part is not at all a burden for me. I truely relish in the hard work that comes with this gig, the burden on my heart is, what you called "spiritual lonelyness". That can be painful at times. |
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It's very physical on my part. 3 - 5 months down sick and medical bills piling up. It's my inability to be a physical help to my family during the first half or more of a pregnancy that bothers me. I too, welcome the priviledge of raising these chidlren. When the morning sickness hits though - I feel so useless.
lisbetI can't concern myself with who's using NFP and why, I just wish others would offer me the same in return. QUOTE wrote:
AMEN!
bridget wrote:
| I'm jealous. In spite of the really heavy workload and physical hardships, the joy of more children outweighs the challenges for me. I always wanted to have them into the double digits. |
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Most days I completely agree. It's the days when I'm puking sick with the next one that I think I'm crazy.
[quote/]I remember reading the quiverfull digest years back and people would have stories about families who expected to have 20 kids and ended up suddenly at the end of childbearing. Sometimes a tragedy. Sometimes a health problem. Sometimes, as with a friend of mine they just never got pg again. Just like that. God only knows! |
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VERY true. And this applies to us as well. Many people assume that moms of large families only continue to have dc because they've never had their hearts broken by the loss of a child or because all their children are perfectly healthy. For myself and nearly every mom of many I've ever met, this is NOT the case though.
[quote/]I'll share the truth with you guys...they are not all perfectly "planned" in the way the world would consider "planned." [/quote]
You know what I say? Oh yes, we planned to have them! Made the decision the minute we saw 2 pink lines.
ETA: I have no idea what I did wrong with the quote thingies!
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Nina Murphy
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Oh Martha,
I am laughing so hard right now. I'm sorry. I know it is inappropriate. This is such a serious topic...but you're comment about the quote thingies was exactly what I needed.  I must be slap-happy-tired because reading that line after this intense conversation sent me into the giggles. I just had to tell you. I simply for the life of me never know what IS UP when I try to do the quote thingies, too! Ha! Oh I so needed this...
Sorry to go off topic, guys. I love you all! This is a great one...don't shy off of it, even though it's a scary topic! It's taking my mind off of myself!
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~~Nina
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and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Willa
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Kim F wrote:
| I don't find providentialism to be Prot per se since it was the only form of family planning for most of time. And the only way to say it is wrong is to suggest nfp would be better or mandatory and of course it isn't. |
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I agree. I don't find providentialism to be Protestant per se, either. I think you can be a Catholic and practice providentialism, and I even think it could be the "better way". But since the Church has approved of periodic abstinence, that seems to mean that St Paul's injunction can be qualified in various ways. It is not meant to be taken as a prohibition of abstinence. And strict biological providentialism as a mandate for every single couple would seem incompatible with the teachings of the Church.
Quote:
| I do feel very uncomfortable with the idea of 'calling'. To me this is more likely to have a Prot origin. How do we know it is a Divine call and not just a hunch or our subconscience? To me that is a much riskier proposition. |
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Yes, I've struggled with that, very much. How do we know what is the right thing? How do we know we are discerning unselfishly, with true charity and generosity and prudence? I don't think outside circumstances can be the deciding factor, in themselves. But they are to be taken into due consideration, as I understand it. In Humanae Vitae the pope said:
"With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time."
This seems to imply a process of discernment. Pope John Paul said "God the Creator invites the spouses not to be passive operators, but rather ‘cooperators or almost interpreters' of His plan." I doubt if he was speaking against a Catholic form of providentialism there. Rather, he was talking about the essentially active, willed aspect of procreation, where couples take an active role in the process of conceiving, bearing and educating their children. That seems to imply that the process is part of the whole thing. No easy answers.
Quote:
| Also the issue of Mary and Joseph or other saints who practiced celibacy would tend imo to fall more accurately under St Paul's intention - prayer and fasting - since they were doing it purposes other than to not conceive. That was the by-product of the choice, a secondary effect vs a primary motivation. Had they done it simply to avoid conception they would have fallen under the Church's condemnation for not being open to life. |
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That's a good point. I wonder if anyone has argued along a similar line for the responsible use of NFP?
To me, NFP does not quite make sense. It's like an indigestible lump in my understanding of marriage. But the Church has spoken, so my understanding is sort of irrelevant. I do appreciate these discussions though since they help me process and clarify, and continue my discerning progress.
Our own Sara P wrote an article on Heroic Virttue She concludes:
Quote:
| We are all, every single one of us called to heroic virtue – to sainthood – and the size and shape of every family is supposed to be dictated by God. We need to remind ourselves of this frequently, especially during the times in our lives when we are feeling comfortable or at ease, and regularly revisit the question, “Lord, what is Your will for our family?’ Then and only then can we be faithful ‘interpreters’ of God’s dictation and ‘ministers’ of His plan – whether that means raising one child or 20. |
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I really like that -- I suppose the existence of NFP forces the issue in a way that wasn't so much present in past times. Its existence seems to imply that while our family size is meant to be dictated by God's will, it is not purely and simply our biology that dictates God's will -- it is our understanding of His will and our own will lined up with His. If that were true, that would mean that for some reason, in our time, God wanted us to have a fuller and more "human" choice in our own procreative powers -- perhaps? Some might still decide to have as many children as their biology allowed, but it would be a choice -- a gloriously generous choice, like Mary's Fiat.
Is this going too far?
Again, I really appreciate these discussions.
And I am so inspired by all of you who are living "signs of contradiction"; or who are patiently bearing crosses to do with infertility, or with scorn and misunderstanding and misinformation from those around you.
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Willa
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Dawnie
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Kim wrote:
| ]I do feel very uncomfortable with the idea of 'calling'. To me this is more likely to have a Prot origin. How do we know it is a Divine call and not just a hunch or our subconscience? To me that is a much riskier proposition. |
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For me, it helps when discerning whether or not to use NFP to remember first of all that the ordinary call of God to married couples is to have children. THEN, to determine whether or not dh and I have a just reason to postpone pregnancy. I always struggle w/ whether or not our reasons are truly just...but whenever we have used NFP, it has only been for a few months at a time and always looking forward to and preparing for that time when we could actively seek pregnancy.
It would be so much easier if God would just put a billboard in my path!
We have to discern God's calling to us in lots of other areas of life, too...a single person has to discern whether or not God is calling him to married life, a religious vocation, or consecrated single life...a mother has to discern whether or not God is calling her to homeschool, and then HOW is He calling her to homeschool...married couples have to discern which charitable organizations/causes God wants them to support...all these things are highly personal. Ultimately, it takes a lot of prayer, especially LISTENING prayer, to determine the answers to these questions.
And yes, some Protestants do claim to be "called" to things that we know cannot be of God...for example, I've heard a Protestant couple say that God called them to use contraception...we know that He would never do that, b/c we know that contraception is a mortal sin. Unfortunately, they do not have the fullness of Truth, and so they are susceptible to temptations and confusion that we are not. If I felt that God was calling me to do something sinful, I'd know right off the bat that I was being tempted and misled by Satan, b/c I know that whatever God calls me to do must be within the bounds of Church teaching. So I know He wouldn't "call" me to have an affair, or abandon my children, or rob a bank.
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Grave and Serious Reason?
