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hylabrook1
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| Posted: Oct 01 2006 at 1:09pm | IP Logged
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Jennifer -
AMEN! I think your eloquence is perfect here.
Peace,
Nancy
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MicheleQ
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jdostalik wrote:
| I cannot, I mean absolutely, cannot imagine what I would be like without my children--the one in my womb now, the five I have here with me on earth, the five with God--all of them have |
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Oh Jennifer I can so relate to this. Dh and I were discussing the HPR article last night and I just kept thinking if we had stopped at four (like the article mentions) I would surely not be the same person I am today. And that would mean 10 of my children (the 4 in Heaven, 1 in my womb and other 5 born after #4) would not even exist. It actually hurts to even think about it!
I NEED thesse children and Lord knows how many more because I am SO far from being holy!
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Nina Murphy
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| Posted: Oct 01 2006 at 5:45pm | IP Logged
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[/Elizabeth: QUOTE]
I think this is a great point. Is self-control in the sense of avoiding the marital embrace so as to avoid conception a greater good than self-donation in the marital act and the openness to conception? When all is said and done, which really requires more self-control: life with many children or life with a controlled few?[/QUOTE]
This is so beautifully put--I am remembering this one forever.
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Nina Murphy
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MicheleQ wrote:
I NEED thesse children and Lord knows how many more because I am SO far from being holy! |
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Michele, thank you. I am inspired by this wisdom to face things with more courage (let's see how I do after 30 minutes). It's hard to hear...but TRUTH. The way is narrow and the road not easy.
(Although, I beg to differ---if you aren't, none of us have any hope!)
This comment totally and completely humbles me. The fact that you have been through so much and are still open to asking "how many more?" you may *need*..... I hope to get to where you are someday with that kind of docility under the hand of God.
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Nina Murphy
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Martha,
 from your sister...!
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Nina Murphy
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| Posted: Oct 01 2006 at 6:32pm | IP Logged
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jdostalik wrote:
Thanks to all who have contributed to this discussion. It has really lifted me up when I am feeling very down and discouraged. My pregnancy hormones have been wreaking havoc with my emotions lately. I think I've cried every day for months! 
I know others have said this more eloquently, but I felt compelled to write. A blessed and holy Sunday to you all! |
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Me. Me too. Me also. 
---------------------------------------------
Jennifer, When are you due? I want to make sure I keep you in prayer---so far I only have Michele, Elizabeth, you, who ELSE am I forgetting!!!?
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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jdostalik
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| Posted: Oct 01 2006 at 7:52pm | IP Logged
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Hi Nina,
I know Irene is due very, very soon. I know there are a couple more moms due in Jan., too, but my pregnant brain can't remember who...   Prayers coming back at you, dear Nina!
__________________
God Bless,
Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
Let the Little Ones Come
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Dawnie
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Nina Murphy wrote:
| who ELSE am I forgetting!!!? |
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Me!
I'm due in November w/ our 4th baby.
Dawn
__________________
Mom to Mary Beth (99), Anna (02), Lucia (04), Clara (06), and Adelaide Victoria (2/28/09)
Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
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Nina Murphy
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| Posted: Oct 01 2006 at 8:37pm | IP Logged
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OH DAWN!!! 
Sorry --- I have no brain cells, I'm telling you. I need help with these things. OK---Dawn, November. Got it.
And isn't Marybeth?
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Nina Murphy
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| Posted: Oct 01 2006 at 8:38pm | IP Logged
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Okay, thanks, Jennifer. 
Irene! October?
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Nina Murphy
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I am  --- I see when you're due, Jennifer! Boy or girl---know yet?
__________________
God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Lisbet
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Bridget and Willa, I totally understand what you are saying about not expecting more than the Church does, and I do realize that NFP has it's place. Please don't think I'm being 'fanatical' about it.
I will say for me (and dh of course!) if we had such grave reasons not to have a baby, we would abstain altogether until those reasons passed ~ and I suppose this would make us very seriously consider just how grave those reasons really are! 
My problem is not at all with the fact that NFP is permissalbe, it is with how it is promoted. I know you know that though, I just feel I come across so bitter when this topic comes around.
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Lisbet
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| Posted: Oct 01 2006 at 9:53pm | IP Logged
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Nina, I totally related to your first post here. You nailed my sentiments exactly. (Oh, and I'm due in May also, with #9. :))
Michele, I had a moment this afternoon, when I was not holding up to the commotion so well, and I recalled this post and your words "this is my path to salvation" It uplifted me and put me back on course. Thank you.
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Nina Murphy
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Lisa, No WAY.
But....YEA!
You just amaze me.
I am so praying for you! You're going on my list this moment and I won't forget, I promise. 
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Kim F
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We have number nine coming in Dec. : )
Kim
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Starry sky ranch
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Nina Murphy
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Oh, KIM---OKay, Good! Praying!
All of your words, by the way, have been stored in my heart; you are very kind and very wise. I am tearing up now (see, Jennifer?) at the examples I am shown repeatedly of such love and generosity and hope-in-action by you amazing mothers and wives who are constantly self-donating. And it ain't easy!!!! 
--------------------------------------------------
__________________
God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Willa
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Lisbet wrote:
| My problem is not at all with the fact that NFP is permissalbe, it is with how it is promoted. I know you know that though, I just feel I come across so bitter when this topic comes around. |
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I am quite a bit on your page there, Lisbet --
though I don't feel very bitter, just often very sad about it. There are so few people who understand how much we wanted all the kids God would give us, what a blessing kids are.
We were at my oldest's college campus yesterday -- it was raining a bit, cloudy and SO green, and the whole seven of them were playing football on the field. Everyone from the 20 year old -- he is a sophomore and looks so grown up these days, but will still roughhouse and scrimmage with his siblings -- down to the 3 year old. I felt so HAPPY and blessed that I had all of them-- that if I had been the poet that Our Blessed Mother was, I would have uttered a canticle. Since I am not, I repeated her Magnificat on the way home through tears of joy. Particularly on the anniversary of Aidan's transplant, the fact that he was happily limping along with the rest of them added to my sense of joy and privilege. And we are the parents of three little other souls that I did not really get to know very well, but that I hope and trust we will be reunited with someday. Ten of them -- from two of us! It has been an adventure without parallel. My heart aches a bit for the spaces in between them -- our little twins that would have been right there in the thick of the scrimmage -- they would be eight now -- and my other one who would be, already, 19 and maybe at the same college where my oldest is now.
BUT OH -- at the same time I felt such a longing for another child that it was almost physical. Being allowed to participate and as Pope John Paul II says, almost "interpret" God's creative will is the greatest thing I've ever known in my life. Truly it is like a sword through my heart to think that my baby is growing up and there is no new baby to take his place. That in ten years the football line up will only have large teens and adults and no little tiny figure running fast to keep up with the others. ... unless there's a grandchild by that time, of course!
So in that way I feel that NFP is a strong privation -- I've written about that in other threads. I often have thought as Nina says that I wish I had lived before NFP. At the same time, I guess I have to admit NFP has given us a choice other than permanent abstinence (which would be a VERY grave deprivation, of course, but one we might have to consider seriously under the circumstances).
We still have that hope that God could work through us to produce a new life. He did with Paddy. If we were living prudently and according to what we think God has called us to do, and we ended up with another "surprise" like Paddy, we would rejoice with all our (conscious) hearts -- while of course, not being exempt from human anxiety and pain and fear, because it really is an extremely serious business.
I think everyone has to discern these things with their spouse and under God. I only hope we are doing it "right" -- pray for us and I will pray for you!
A possible parallel --I admire St Therese's family with all my heart -- all those daughters who entered the religious life -- but it would be wrong to expect that all my children would take religious vows, because though it is the "perfect" life, not everyone is called to it, and you have to go where you are called and chosen.
I think this is in a nutshell what we are all called to do -- accept the blessings in the form of gifts or crosses or sacrifices. I am not saying I do it well; just that it is what I think it is what we are called to -- whether we have 10 children, or 2, or 3 and several in heaven, or all things in between.
If we decide my husband and I are called to leave our marital relationships completely open to the possibility of new life -- I would do it in a second, and in almost all ways that is what I would prefer to do. If I thought we were sinning or showing lack of faith or trust by using NFP -- I would abandon it in less than a second, with joy and happiness. I'm not at all "attached" to the thought of avoiding pregnancy and new life; it is a cross.
So it is hard for me to "defend" NFP when I rather resent it in some ways. Like Nina, sometimes I wish it wasn't an option so the Church community at least would rally around instead of saying in words or with attitude, "Well, don't you know how that's caused?" But I do think there's a via media between casual over-use NFP and complete disallowing of it on principle -- and that's the mean between extremes that the Church takes in Her statements on this. I know you know that, Lisbet and others.... just trying to make my point of view clear.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Nina Murphy
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Willa,
I am sad for you reading this, that you feel you have to defend this heroic life of yours.
In fact, I took from your earlier post, and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not going to go back and read it---- just the opposite. I took this:
Extended total abstinence=no possibility/0 souls God can create (assuming God chooses to work within nature the majority of the time, no Immaculate Conceptions)
Periodic monthy abstinence=possibility for God to work with the raw materials that are, by nature, in the choice of the couple, at least present, resulting often in the "oops" soul ( no oops with God) that the family never would have been given (Paddy?) if abstaining month upon month upon month.
So, total abstinence does not seem what Mother Church is calling us to for a healthy life, if married. (But I want to say, after a couple of births, I was tortured in my mind about how I could trust again and let my husband near me, so I understand. I did heal, thanks be to God, but it is never easy. I know several women who did just that for many, many, many months. This is practiced because of the fear that NFP will fail and God will send that soul.) But rather, abstain as Paul says, for a TIME (what is the best translation?--I don't know--assuming a short time, for the purpose of growing in holiness, not out of fear, lest we tempt God and put each other in temptation. He may even be referring to non-fertile times like pregnancies.) And take away from God what miraculous things He may want to work through our family.
Rather, I know many, many couple who chose to attempt the implemation of the NFP rules and still conceived anyway; and they have soul upon soul upon soul, but know it MUST be God's Will. And they have peace with their huge beautiful families. So, if they had been completing staying away from each other, their families and marriages and mission in life would have ended up looking completely different. I have found that even one child added TOTALLY changes the dynamic and complexion of the family.
God has been ABLE to work through you!
__________________
God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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hylabrook1
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Willa -
Your post is absolutely beautiful. Not to make light of anything you've said, but perhaps to reinforce, I've always thought that the appropriate answer to "Don't you know how that's caused?" is "Of course we do; why else do you think we have as many as we do?"
Peace,
Nancy
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Bridget
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WJFR wrote:
We were at my oldest's college campus yesterday -- it was raining a bit, cloudy and SO green, and the whole seven of them were playing football on the field. Everyone from the 20 year old -- he is a sophomore and looks so grown up these days, but will still roughhouse and scrimmage with his siblings -- down to the 3 year old. I felt so HAPPY and blessed that I had all of them
BUT OH -- at the same time I felt such a longing for another child that it was almost physical. |
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I had one of those meltdowns just this afternoon. Yesterday we took a picture of the kids with my parents. I was looking at it today and realized that there might never be any more babies in that picture. My baby is working hard on being a toddler and my toddler is working hard on being a big boy. And my big boy is the size of a man. Sigh.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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Topic: Grave and Serious Reason?
