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StephanieA
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<<<My OB uses Natural Spacing as the clinical term for this. [/QUOTE]>>>>
And to add what a beautiful way to express a part of the NFP concept, to emphasize the spacing element! I wish I had your OB! I keep getting...so is this your last one? Instead of, well, will I be seeing you next year or will there be a space? (As if "I" knew  )
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Kim F
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<<I may be spacing my children when I nurse, but I am not planning them or charting, etc. >.
And really that is a God space because we have little to no control over it. Even if done 'correctly' two different women will have completely different experiences with ecological breastfeeding. My experience is different every baby. Sometimes its weeks, months; sometimes it is well over a year. Some women go longer.
Then again some of my babies have been conceived when there was no clinical way according to the chart that it should have happened. And sometimes no matter what the chart says conception just doesn't happen. The only way I could be REALLY sure to control that is to have few to no relations outside of about a week total per month. I have done that too. Let's just say it was not 'marriage building'. ; o
Kim
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Willa
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Nina Murphy wrote:
| It is not even so much, I have found, the question anymore about if it is permissible to use NFP in this or that circumstance, but the opposite: it is NOT permissible NOT to |
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That's the part that has bothered me through the years.
When someone emphasizes one side of the question -- bringing out the acceptability of NFP -- and doesn't acknowledge the other side, the value of heroic generosity -- it leaves the implication that anyone who chooses the heroic generosity somehow has personal "issues" or is even actively doing something WRONG.
This is SO not the case, but except for a couple of sentences at the end of the article, there is no acknowledgement of God's and the Church's love for families that go far beyond the minimum.
This does not seem pastoral to me, especially since many pastors themselves are a bit confused on this issue and very inclined to have the worldly view that two is enough or you have to have a guaranteed college fund before you can consider bringing another child into the world.
What ends up happening, in my experience, is that beautiful large families that are relying radically on God's grace get the Church's support taken away from them when they need it most. (the church around them -- their friends, co-parishioners, and even pastors) This is not what the Church (as a whole) intended in the least -- there has always been a consistent thread that while NFP is an option in various circumstances, families who are called by God to be heroically generous should be given especial recognition and support.
The CHurch's view on this was most recently expressed by
Pope Benedict XVI
Quote:
Large families need society's support, Pope Benedict XVI told his weekly audience on November 2. A large family, the Pope remarked, "constitutes a witness of faith, courage, and optimism." Moreover, large families provide wealth to society, "because without children there is no future!"
The Holy Father called for "adequate social and legislative" measures to support large families, repeating that they offer "richness and hope for the entire country."
The Pope's remarks were prompted by the presence of an Italian national family association at the Wednesday audience. He used the occasion to underline "the centrality of the family, the foundational cell of society and the first place where life is welcomed and served." He offered his special greetings to large families, and made a point, at the end of his audience, of meeting with a family that had 9 children.
In related news, Pope Benedict XVI's general prayer intention for the month of November is: "That married people may imitate the example of conjugal holiness shown by so many couples in the ordinary conditions of life."
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I think he was speaking about you and your family, Nina  I hate to see that message minimized!
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Willa
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Kim F
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Willa says:
<<it leaves the implication that anyone who chooses the heroic generosity somehow has personal "issues" or is even actively doing something WRONG. >.
Yes that line he had in the article about 'not all ofus are capable of heroic virtue' struck me. It brought to mind the wonderful book entitled "Only Heroic Catholic Families Will Survive". Perhaps not all feel up to nor interested in heroic virtue. It has pretty much been the defining standard for sainthood through time howevre.
Kim
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Martha
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Oh Willa! I really needed to hear that this morning!
Thank you!
Kim F wrote:
Willa says:
<<it leaves the implication that anyone who chooses the heroic generosity somehow has personal "issues" or is even actively doing something WRONG. >.
Yes that line he had in the article about 'not all ofus are capable of heroic virtue' struck me. It brought to mind the wonderful book entitled "Only Heroic Catholic Families Will Survive". Perhaps not all feel up to nor interested in heroic virtue. It has pretty much been the defining standard for sainthood through time howevre.
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 We are ALL called to be saints.
I hear, "Not everyone is called to be a mother of many." That may be true, but most will never know what they are called to be because they've decided that's a call they don't want to answer. Being "open", does not mean you will have a large family. Being "open" doesn't even mean you'll have kids at all. It means we will accept His will for us and make it our will. 
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Martha
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Courtney
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<<Yes! How many of us have heard well, you must be very organized, patient, healthy,etc etc. In fact most of us who have large families are not all of the above. If we are any of those things it is BECAUSE of our children. Having large families created a need to exercise virtues we could well have avoided otherwise. How many of us started out our families thinking 'whooey, I bet I could have a truckload of kids I have such 'inborn talent'. Not. >>
I'm jumping in late, here, but this struck me. This is exactly how my dh feels. He doesn't feel like he has the ability to handle more children. I believe God gives you what you need. No, with, two children I will not possibly possess the same gifts as someone with 5 or eight children. NFP was presented to me (at least what I heard) as an acceptable (to the church) form of spacing. I've learned much since then! However, I am in a position of having a dh who does not feel called to having more children. He deeply loves our dc and is a wonderfully involved father. He feels like he couldn't be the same involved father with more. I pray for a change of heart, but I feel like there is little else I can do.
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Martha
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Courtney wrote:
He feels like he couldn't be the same involved father with more.
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Of course, he won't be the same involved father with more. Is he the same father now as when there was one child in the house? Is he the same man he was before there were children? I should think not. I would like to think he has grown to become the man his family needs him to be. That won't change with more children. He WILL change. He will become what he must in that situation, just as he has become what he is today for the situation he is in today.
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Nina Murphy
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To the ladies who wrote affirming words: I say THANK YOU for giving me the permission to pour my heart out and not fear.... If you could feel my cyber hugs, you would be gasping for breath.
I do fear scandalizing people and letting them down. The one relative I have who is a practicing Catholic has changed her views on what marriage and family life should look like and come to see things differently due, she feels, to seeing how much I suffer. She expressed recently that she wants nothing to do with it...does not want to follow in my footsteps.
I just think this a very lonely and sad time for me.
I appreciate not having to always be perfect for all of you.  I have been told so many times: "YOU are strong; I could never do it". But I am not strong. The exact opposite is true, actually. And yet: why has God chosen to send me another soul? I am a weak instrument, a fragile vessel. I do not understand. But maybe I am just HIS...for HIM to decide what to use me for....even if things don't turn out "perfectly" with perfectly adjusted children! They're here....(and I hope another will be, too in May, God willing...). Yes, they're here on this earth to affect it and others SOMEHOW.
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~~Nina
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and 2 yet-to-be-met
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LML22
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This grave and serious business has always stumped me. I really believe that NFP is seriously abused by many people because it is not being taught correctly. When I was engaged, we took classes and "serious and grave" was never mentioned. It was just an approved method of BC by the church. Here is something that has me stumped. What do you think?
If there is a reason which is truly grave, and if it is also true that many couples practicing NFP get pregnant anyways, then one can conclude that they have taken a grave risk. In others, yet another problematic concern develops whereby one had a grave reason not to conceive, but took part in an act which tempted that grave risk.
If the reason is truly grave, then the couple should abstain from intercourse by practicing chastity
if the risk is so great, why are taking the risk by engaging in the marital privilege with NFP, instead of abstaining altogether?
More questions than answers, or maybe an easy answer but a hard one to swallow. If its going to kill me (i.e. by death, not being able to feed family, mentally etc.), I should totally abstain.
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Kim F
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You are little, Nina, just like St Therese. And in the end knowing our weaknesses and failings is likely keeping us in a much better place that having the illusion of control and self-sufficiency. If you had two or three children you may have been able to sustain that illusion longer - perhaps indefinitely. Though sooner or later life has a way of pulling us all up short through illness, death, financial crisis, emotional upset etc. It is my belief that those who already had made peace with God being in control can often weather those storms better than those who have no experience with them and have become accustomed to always having life in hand.
Also I think LOTS of people suffer from faulty logic these days. To blame your trials on family size is your relative's way of letting herself off the hook. I know many moms of few children who are battling depression or illness or whatnot. It is coincidental to family size. If you had two kids and struggled no one would blame you. They would likely sympathize and offer help. As it stands she made it clear that you are suffering from your choices, ones she will not make. she is easing her conscience both for changing her views and for not being more helpful. : /
Kim
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Lisbet
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LML22 wrote:
This grave and serious business has always stumped me. I really believe that NFP is seriously abused by many people because it is not being taught correctly. When I was engaged, we took classes and "serious and grave" was never mentioned. It was just an approved method of BC by the church. Here is something that has me stumped. What do you think?
If there is a reason which is truly grave, and if it is also true that many couples practicing NFP get pregnant anyways, then one can conclude that they have taken a grave risk. In others, yet another problematic concern develops whereby one had a grave reason not to conceive, but took part in an act which tempted that grave risk.
If the reason is truly grave, then the couple should abstain from intercourse by practicing chastity
if the risk is so great, why are taking the risk by engaging in the marital privilege with NFP, instead of abstaining altogether?
More questions than answers, or maybe an easy answer but a hard one to swallow. If its going to kill me (i.e. by death, not being able to feed family, mentally etc.), I should totally abstain.
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That's always how I've felt about it. If it's grave enough reason not to have a baby, than it's grave enough to abstain altogether.
We've gotten the whole "self-control" thing too. As if you don't have any if you don't abstain during the fertile time. (and we all know with many littles running around, your bound to experience periods of abstanance anyhow, why ask for more!!) Or how abstaining is so virtueous because of the need to practice that self-control, thus masking the true motive, avoiding conception...
I have so much diffuculty discussing this topic calmly, as I've been hurt so many times by 'well meaning' Catholics.
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Nick, 17
Abby, 15
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Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
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Mark, 5
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ALmom
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A couple of things struck me in this whole discussion :
One is that I to am disturbed when the whole issue is presented in an unbalanced way (on either side). The default is for children and we are not to stand in judgement of the discernment of individual couples using the guidance the church gives (either in determining sufficiently serious reasons for postponing children through NFP or the call to greater trust and generosity despite circumstances). I do think that in our culture there is greater tendency to be tainted by the world in this - and to forget that every decision in this matter must be taken to God in prayer with the realization of the greatness of the gift of a sibling for our children. It should never be about what I want or think I need, but about what God desires for us. The church is very, very clear on some things a bit vaguer on others (perhaps on purpose).
I also find so much talk about planning very troubling. I know it is not always meant this way, but often it comes across as if we view our children as commodities instead of individual people with bodies and souls in the cooperation of our Love and God's. (I'm not talking about on this board as much as in the general discussion in society and often in our parishes). This is also a temptation for those of us desiring more - but not being so blessed. Our children are not our right, we do not manufacture them in factories (though that is being tried and done in the test-tube babies, etc.) They are an awesome trust from God given to our love and care for whatever time. Sometimes it is hard not to try and tell God what to do, instead of humbly submitting to His will. Sometimes we act like this whole thing, instead of an awesome mystery of God's greatness, is reduced to a marketplace - buying and selling so to speak. We have lost some of the awe and wonder of why God would choose to have us cooperate with him in the creation of new life. Sometimes I pine, like Nina, for the days when we didn't know so much, but then some of this knowledge was the very means God used to help us enjoy the gift of our children.
And why is it that heroic virtue is not expected of all of us - even the weakest? Heroic virtue does not come from us - it comes from God. We are all called to be Saints, which does mean the exercise of heroic virtue after all. But we'll never get there trying to do things our way by ourselves! Perhaps the weakest figure this out first cause they are not as saddled with pride.
I think the church (very personal opinion here) did not list specific circumstances for a reason. For one, you can never list everything possible. But, also, I think, because it WILL vary from couple to couple and to list a list might give excuses to a couple called to something greater. All those factors listed in general terms in H.V. certainly can be taken into account in the discernment process - but it is God working on the human heart that comes up with the answer - whether it may appear reasonable or unreasonable to an outsider is irrelevant. It is a decision for which the individual couples are asked to make - and to answer for before God. God only knows the true motive of the heart in these matters. Postponing, may, in fact, be a true act of generosity. We are stepping on shaky ground if we start to try and get over specific with individual couples. Another couple may be very generous and wise (in God's eyes) for recognizing that God is not calling them to postpone but to welcome whatever He may send. Doesn't God choose us in our weakness so we know it is Him and not us. I don't know how many times I've cried on the phone with my sis wondering why in the world God trusted me with all these souls because I really was doing a bad job (usually these phone calls are after a really bad day - or when the stress is mounting and I've blown up - cause I am not patient by nature and instead of relying on God, I forgot and tried to rely on myself).
Has anyone written to the author of the article? I think this would be relevent. Also, a letter to the editor where the article appeared.
Yes, I think many of us have experienced what Nina is speaking of. I know I am fortunate in that I do have support from my family so I have never felt totally abandoned. But there is often the unrealistic pressure that makes us feel like we cannot be honest about our discouragement and worries (whether it is the number of children, their particular challenges or homeschooling or attachment parenting, etc.) As women, we often need to talk about our struggles and doubts and have a shoulder to cry on on those bad days just in order to work through the difficulties and come to the peace God wishes for us. I often expressed this with homeschooling - I could never express my frustrations with homeschooling to anyone as the answer was always - send them to school. Yet, bad days are normal - and often we just need a sympathetic ear so we can talk it out loud - and then we are fine to go on.
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Martha
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Nina, Lisa, and LML22...
Are you my long lost and much desired sisters?
It's no small comfort to know that I'm not the only "crazy catholic" with these thoughts and feelings.
Thank you for your willingness to give a voice to them.
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Martha
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Bridget
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Here is what I think. Thomas Storck wrote outside of his field of expertise. Maybe he wrote it to defend his own decisions. I could be waayyy off, but that seems to be a plausible explanation for why he wrote it. That is pure speculation on my part but the piece seemed odd in relation to his other work.
Discussion and healthy debate over this, fueled by Storck's article or the discussion Kim was having, is good for us in that it helps us clarify and sharpen what God is asking of us. Strengthening our convictions helps us to face the more difficult situation of relatives who don't understand and criticize.
Most of the culture around us does not understand. Comfort, success, pleasure and avoiding difficulty are the main goals in most of our society. They do not understand why we would put ourselves in a position to live poor, drive old cars or forgo fancy vacations. They do not get why we would allow our bodies to carry so many babies or lose sleep for years and years with little ones. This is where they are coming from.
We need to be prepared to answer for our convictions. You never know what seeds might be sown. But until a person’s heart is ready to hear, there isn’t much we can say. Our cheerful, diligent example will go much further. The fruits of our family will make them wonder how we do it and what we have that keeps us going.
The Duggars are a good example of this. There have been 4 documentaries on them. In my limited exposure to the Protestant hs’ing world, I believe that they have lead a large number of families to decide on hs’ing and to be ‘quiverful’, as they call it. There was a movement in that direction anyways, but they have fueled it by their example.
I’m not saying we should all try to be Catholic Duggars, but if we do our best with what God has given us, we will soften some hearts. People will see how well we love and raise our children. They will see how well the children love us, and each other. They will see all the good things we work for tirelessly, and it WILL make a difference. People WILL be encouraged to be more open to life and REAL love.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Willa
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LML22 wrote:
If the reason is truly grave, then the couple should abstain from intercourse by practicing chastity
if the risk is so great, why are taking the risk by engaging in the marital privilege with NFP, instead of abstaining altogether? |
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I do not agree that the couple SHOULD absolutely abstain rather than use NFP. The Church does not say this. Chastity within a marriage allows for conjugal relations -- you probably meant celibacy.
You ask: why take the risk? God did not say to live a risk-free life or to only have marital relations when the outcome is guaranteed to be risk-free.
I hope this does not sound abrupt. My family actually did have one of those high-risk situations, and if we had abstained permanently, we would not have our Paddy. NFP allowed God to work a miracle; Paddy lived and flourished and his case indirectly helped with the survival of at least 3 other babies, I believe; abstention would not have done this.
And periodic abstention -- NFP --- is morally acceptable in the eyes of the Church for serious reasons. So is permanent abstention, no doubt. But, I have not read that the Church recommends permanent abstention over periodic abstention or over no abstention at all in cases of grave risk -- I believe that is up to the prudential decision of the couple under God's grace.
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Willa
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Bridget
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LML22 wrote:
If there is a reason which is truly grave, and if it is also true that many couples practicing NFP get pregnant anyways, then one can conclude that they have taken a grave risk. In others, yet another problematic concern develops whereby one had a grave reason not to conceive, but took part in an act which tempted that grave risk.
If the reason is truly grave, then the couple should abstain from intercourse by practicing chastity
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I missed this before.
I understand how one could feel this way, and some couples may be called to abstain. But we have to be careful not to demand more of the faithful than the Church does, and she does not teach this.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Bookswithtea
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Bridget wrote:
Here is what I think. Thomas Storck wrote outside of his field of expertise. Maybe he wrote it to defend his own decisions. I could be waayyy off, but that seems to be a plausible explanation for why he wrote it. That is pure speculation on my part but the piece seemed odd in relation to his other work.
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I don't know what his field of expertise is, and I don't know what his personal decisions are, but I do think he was responding to something that irritated him. I had this feeling during the whole article that he was bothered by voices that consistently call for heroic virtue, or voices that recommend NFP for only the most grave of reasons (famine, war, imminent death of a parent, etc). I think that's why it reads lopsided. I think the last paragraph was an attempt to correct the lopsidedness...ineffective, but an attempt nonetheless.
Dh and I are watching Gods and Generals this weekend (its looonnggg, takes more than one night for us to see it all), and I was struck by the simple and pure faith of so many people. I too, sometimes wish for the days before massive technological advancement and the "global community." How wonderful it would be to live in a town where the local parish was within walking distance to make a daily short visit, the doors were always open, one didn't even consider the possibility that their own priest might not be orthodox, and faith was simpler to maintain.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Elizabeth
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Lisbet wrote:
We've gotten the whole "self-control" thing too. As if you don't have any if you don't abstain during the fertile time. (and we all know with many littles running around, your bound to experience periods of abstanance anyhow, why ask for more!!) Or how abstaining is so virtuous because of the need to practice that self-control, thus masking the true motive, avoiding conception...
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I think this is a great point. Is self-control in the sense of avoiding the marital embrace so as to avoid conception a greater good than self-donation in the marital act and the openness to conception? When all is said and done, which really requires more self-control: life with many children or life with a controlled few?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MarilynW
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This is such a great discussion. I just feel I am swimming against the tide sometimes - and nice to see that there are so many of you out there. We are praying for more blessings (we have four here and one in heaven) - but we get so many disparaging remarks. I feel irritated that I will have people feeling sorry for me if and when I tell them I am expecting. Even in our church which is getting more and more liberal and where there are maybe 2 families with more than 4 children. Most common remarks:
- isn't 4 enough?
- done yet
- how are you going to afford it
- you are thirty-eight - aren't you scared of having a disabled child
- after all your bad pregnancies is it safe to have another one
- your house is small - how are you going to fit everyone in
- why don't you watch tv more (no kidding on this one!)
- if you have any more you will neglect the others
- how will you pay for College for everyone
-how will you do activities with everyone
- how will you afford orthodontics for everyone
What hurts me most is that this is from practicing Catholics. There is this belief that we can put our lives into little boxes. So many of the moms have the view that pregnancy, childbirth and childrearing are necessary evils to be endured so that they can eventually get on with their lives.
It has been a tremendous support and inspiration to hear from so many people on this list - so many of you are not well, not strong, not rich - but are so open to life and the vocation of motherhood.
Ok ..that is my rant for today...
Marilyn
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jdostalik
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Thanks to all who have contributed to this discussion. It has really lifted me up when I am feeling very down and discouraged. My pregnancy hormones have been wreaking havoc with my emotions lately. I think I've cried every day for months! 
I cannot, I mean absolutely, cannot imagine what I would be like without my children--the one in my womb now, the five I have here with me on earth, the five with God--all of them have changed me, pruned me and helped me grow closer to God. They are my path to holiness and I hope and pray that I may be a good example and lead them to God, as well. Pregnancy, parenting, family life is an example of true, sacrificial love and joy--I do believe we are all capable of heroic virtue--we just all have our own path and must discern and pray to God for wisdom and then be willing to accept His will for us.
I know others have said this more eloquently, but I felt compelled to write. A blessed and holy Sunday to you all!
__________________
God Bless,
Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
Let the Little Ones Come
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Grave and Serious Reason?
