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guitarnan
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| Posted: Sept 07 2006 at 5:02pm | IP Logged
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I think part of the difficulty with this whole concept is the negative connotation that "submissive" has in our culture today. It's a bad word. "Submissive" people are considered to be doormats. That's perhaps not exactly what St. Paul meant.
Carrying this forward, this is also the problem some non-Catholics have with papal authority and the teaching authority of bishops. We're not totally free to decide what the Bible says on our own. Instead, we trust that God will inspire the Holy Father to guide His Church and keep all of us on the path to truth (and thus to eternity with Him). Some non-Catholics just can't get their arms around this idea at all...they see papal authorit and the deposit of faith as restricting an individual's relationship with God. I thought about this today and see it as a sort of an extension of the "submission" issue...maybe not everyone's starting from the same definition. What we see as submitting to papal authority as an extension of Christ's authority, they see in a very different way.
I did look up the word's origins but didn't find anything enlightening. I was hoping to see how the word evolved from Latin to the "doormat" concept, but couldn't do that.
God never gives up His side of the covenants He makes, no matter what His people do. We read this over and over again in the Bible. If we're to imitate Christ, we should try to do the same, to the best of our (human) abilities. It's painful to keep the covenant of marriage when the other partner isn't, as we all know. We're called to try, though.
I like the idea that there are many paths to acknowledging that our husbands head our households. It's great to read all your posts and see what works for you...sometimes I get so stuck in a behavioral rut that I really need to be told that there are other paths.
I have to go cook dinner for my poor dh...he had to get a lift home today because of an incident at his workplace that closed the Metro station access area. With two major roads out of DC closed for special events and an immigration rights rally on the Mall, this is not the day to be in a car in the District of Columbia!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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stacykay
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| Posted: Sept 07 2006 at 6:17pm | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
...
I did look up the word's origins but didn't find anything enlightening. I was hoping to see how the word evolved from Latin to the "doormat" concept, but couldn't do that.
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Beginning on page 25 of the article I referred to in my first post, Father Riccardo has a vocabulary analysis of the words subordinate and then on page 31 he discusses "head."
Here is a blurb:
However, ýðïôÜóóù is not found in the active voice in Ephesians 5:21 and 5:24a. In v. 22 and 24b, where wives are the subjects of the sentences, it should be read in the middle voice with imperative force. It is best translated as “to place oneself at the disposition of.”
I hope this is helpful.
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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Helen
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MicheleQ wrote:
| Lastly, I wonder how much of our thinking in this area has been affected by Protestant teaching which does not have the fullness of truth. I don't know the answer to these questions as I am still studying and trying to get a clearer picture of authentic Catholic teaching on this issue. |
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Michelle, I’ll just give an example from my own life. I used to be concerned that too much obedience was a Protestant attitude. But, speaking for myself, I realize now that was a temptation for me not to practice obedience. There really is nothing more Catholic than obedience. The Catholic religious orders are based upon it (St. Francis said obedience in order to practice poverty for charity.)
Catholicism asks us to practice obedience to state laws, to our boss, to our pastor, to our bishop and of course, the big Catholic item, obeying the Pope.
Nancy explained very well the big difference between Protestantism and Catholicism.
The difference is obedience:
guitarnan wrote:
| We're not totally free to decide what the Bible says on our own. Instead, we trust that God will inspire the Holy Father to guide His Church and keep all of us on the path to truth (and thus to eternity with Him). |
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So, I don’t think it should be considered Protestant for wives to practice obedience.
I believe Brigid’s examples of obedience are beautiful and well grounded in a Catholic perspective. Catholicism is tough but it is not harsh. The “master” to whom a wife shows obedience is the one of her own choosing, the love of her life, the man she freely married. This is not harsh but very gentle way in which God wishes to shape us into His image.
I’m sorry for all the saint quoting but when I looked up what Mother Teresa had to say for Our Lady’s birthday. (I wasn’t thinking of this thread just wondering what Bl. Teresa’s words were for this day.) I found a quotation on obedience. (I like to look to what Bl. Teresa of Calcutta says because she is a contemporary [mega] saint who lived a very active, apostolic life which I think has relevant crossover for a married woman.)
“Obedience, well lived, frees us from selfishness and pride and helps us to find God. In him, we find the whole world. Obedience is a special grace that produces unfailing peace, inward joy, and close union with God. Obedience lived with joy creates a deep awareness of his presence. Fidelity to obedience –constant, prompt, cheerful, undivided obedience –becomes like drops of oil that keep the light of Jesus living in our life. Our Lady will teach us how to obey like Jesus, who was obedient unto death.”
Thirsting For God
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Ave Maria!
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Sept 07 2006 at 8:23pm | IP Logged
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Helen wrote:
| I used to be concerned that too much obedience was a Protestant attitude. |
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Maybe it's just me, but don't you feel that Catholic obedience is a different thing than Protestant obedience? Somehow, it feels more freeing....  Or is it just my imagination? Isn't it the difference between "duty" and "joy"?
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God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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Helen
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| Posted: Sept 07 2006 at 8:41pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth wrote:
| Maybe it's just me, but don't you feel that Catholic obedience is a different thing than Protestant obedience? Somehow, it feels more freeing.... Or is it just my imagination? Isn't it the difference between "duty" and "joy"? |
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Again speaking for myself, my earlier attitude did not focus on the interior aspect of obedience. But now, I look upon obedience as looking for the Lord. As such is does result in great joy.
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Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
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Martha
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Helen wrote:
[QUOTE=MicheleQ] Lastly, I wonder how much of our thinking in this area has been affected by Protestant “Obedience, well lived, frees us from selfishness and pride and helps us to find God. In him, we find the whole world. Obedience is a special grace that produces unfailing peace, inward joy, and close union with God. Obedience lived with joy creates a deep awareness of his presence. Fidelity to obedience –constant, prompt, cheerful, undivided obedience –becomes like drops of oil that keep the light of Jesus living in our life. Our Lady will teach us how to obey like Jesus, who was obedient unto death.”
Thirsting For God
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I love that quote. It's so true. OT, but it describes very well how we felt when we decided not to use ANY form of birth control, including NFP. It's so hard to explain to people that giving up control of our lives to Him is actually a great freedom. Like the world removed from our shoulders and placed at His feet where it belongs.
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
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Bridget
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I have another thought on what St. Paul wrote. I think it's significant that he gave the first instruction to women. My experience is that her part often must come first or she can destroy his ability to fully live his part.
Not being any kind of scholar, I don't know if thats a valid way to look at it or not.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Rebecca
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deleting content for privacy reasons
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ALmom
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Bridget, Fr. Fox would agree with you on that. He had an article on this very topic in his Fatima Family Messenger. I will say I felt a bit sorry for the mom in the story as Fr. Fox made it sound like all was her fault - but he did get the point across that the wife has great power to destroy leadership in the man. This in turn has repurcussions that show up in teenage rebellion, children's obedience, etc.
One reason I think this issue is so important today is the very fact that authority is the #1 problem in the church at large. We have pretty widespread disobedience everywhere. Obedience is so much a part of Catholic life at all levels. A religious to the superior, a superior to the Pope, all of us to the magisterium, a Bishop to the Pope, priests to his Bishop. We are not asked to determine how wise, holy, etc. the person is but should obey in all things but sin. In the Holy Family, Joseph wasn't the holiest member - Jesus was, obviously. But He submitted in love to His parents. Mary submitted to Joseph - went instantly in the middle of the night because Joseph said they needed to leave. Joseph, I am sure never once considered himself the most capable or holiest member of the family - what a burden to carry without relying on God. He knew he must rely on God the Father, since God the Father gave him this responsibility and did. The Holy Family should be our model.
Now if God the son, submitted to his parents, certainly I can manage to submit to my dh with His help. The attitude of submission is one of humility and love - certainly a great cure for many sins which are based on pride. I wish I were more perfectly there as it is the a basis of peace and love in this family. I am usually brought to the awareness of my failure when I see the consequences - the hurt in the eyes of someone I love, the disorderliness that results, etc. It is certainly a struggle for me - I'm the difficult one in the family, my dh is becoming a Saint in his patience with me. This is how it happens, I think, for a time one or the other is stronger and holds up both by simply living their vocation to the best of their ability. (I'm not saying I'm horrible or a dismal failure, but we all have tendencies, weaknesses, etc. that we have to fight and keep on working on. I'm not a total tyrant, but I do recognize some of my tendencies and have to work at controlling my excesses.)
I guess this whole issue is one near to my heart because it is so related to what almost led me away from the Catholic church. I had so much trouble with so many teachings, but in the end the whole confusion was related to a corrupted view of authority and obedience. Understood correctly, this is so freeing.
I think it is a huge problem in America at large where there is such a strong sentiment for rugged individualism. Yes, we are unique individuals made in the image and likeness of God - but somehow we cannot forget about the hierarchy of authority that God establishes because ultimately if we reject that, we reject God himself. (I was born in 1960 so the whole rebellion against authority permeated every aspect of life. It turned things upside down and even when you didn't embrace any of that consciously, you find that somehow the error of the idea impacts life in subtle ways that go unrecognized for a while).
Anyways this is a long reflection, but hope it helps. My dc are now stirring and beginning to need me so I'd best go attend to them.
Janet
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Wives Subordinate in Everything
