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Lisa R
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This thread has been so inspirational to me and reminds me of why I come here and read all the wisdom of all of you so often throughout the day.
Thank you all for your beautiful example of being a Catholic woman after God's own heart in today's mixed-up world. 
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God Bless!
Lisa, married to my best friend, Ray and loving my blessings Joshua (17)and Jacob(15), Hannah(7) and Rachel (5)!Holy Family Academy
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MacBeth
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Helen wrote:
I have found that the more I am listening to my husband and trying to obey him in this spirit, the more he listens to me and is much more in tuned to what is going on with me.
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Yes, Helen!
And I firmly believe that this is implicit in Eph.5, when read as a whole. It's easy to grab onto one line and cry "misogyny!!" but impossible to do so when one reads the whole passage and applies it to life.
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
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momwats8
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This has been so eye opening. I can see where my argumentative attitude and fighting him in the little things and sometimes the big things is not right and these are tying into the areas God is trying to help me to grow. I need so desparately to help my Hubby. I do know that I sometimes make him feel inadequate and it is wrong. I am glad we are having this talk.
You are all very holy and wonderful women and good examples of living out our calling as wives.
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Mary- Wife to Mike and Mother to Austin(92), Mikey(95), R.J.(97), Benedict(98), Kolbe(00), Ignatius(02), Christian(03), Margaret(05),&4 angels in heaven
http://www.momwats8.blogspot.com
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stacykay
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momwats8 wrote:
This has been so eye opening. I can see where my argumentative attitude and fighting him in the little things and sometimes the big things is not right and these are tying into the areas God is trying to help me to grow. I need so desparately to help my Hubby. I do know that I sometimes make him feel inadequate and it is wrong. I am glad we are having this talk.
You are all very holy and wonderful women and good examples of living out our calling as wives.
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Yes, I completely quoted Mary, but she said all I have been thinking!
Elizabeth, you helped me to think more about the sacrifices my dh makes. His alarm goes off at 4:30 every day. He is at work by 6 or 6:30, and comes home around 6. Is he really having great fun? No, and I have to try to think about where he is, putting myself in his shoes. As you point out, he has the incredible responsibility of providing our home, food, education, etc., being daddy and a good role model to 6 boys, spend time with them, and spend time with his not-always-appreciative wife  .
Maybe I don't go out to lunch with adults or go golfing (he's gone a banner 4 times this year, with clients,) but I do get to stay at home with my dc. I don't have to work. He hands over his paycheck to me every two weeks, and trusts me to handle the money wisely. Time for some prayer and a bit of an attitude adjustment!
Thank you all, for your very wise input! 
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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amyable
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Martha wrote:
| How does offerring an opinion or different perspective hurt the guy's manhood? |
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Being that I brought up "ego", I wanted to say that I don't think that in general bringing up your opinion or discussing things hurts the manhood. But it can - it's totally in the wife's choice of words, tone of voice, and overall attitude. I'm guessing you don't have a problem there, but I know I did! We still discuss things often, but I try hard to really listen and see things from his point of view. I have to tell myself, "Just because I wouldn't chose that doesn't make it *wrong*" and remember that the Holy Spirit may be leading him in ways I can't understand, yet the devil may be leading ME down paths I don't even realize!
Martha wrote:
My dh wants to know if the problem we are having understanding this submission thing is that neither of us have ever had a serious major disagreement? Really. My dh rarely has to ask things of me, it's just understood. I have to say it's mutual. (A friend of mine says this is because my dh already has me well trained. )
I guess when we hear "submission" we hear "unbalanced marriage." We both try very hard to do what's best for the family as a whole. Not for me. Not for him. Not for the kids. But for the family.
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That sounds wonderful! I'm wondering if you and your husband are very similar in personality and temperment? Maybe submission is a moot point in marriages like that. I know with us though, we are so different. We attack things in very opposite ways. I need to submit often to my husbands ideas, plans, way of doing things, because it's not how I would naturally work. Maybe it seems unbalanced to the outside observer. Maybe I'm so nutty it needs to be for the good of my family! 
I'm sorry this is so choppy. Trying to post this while fending off many cranky kids...so I need to go!
I do hope, Martha, this post didn't come off as argumentative with you...that was totally not my intent, and I always worry when I chose to quote someone. 
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Elizabeth
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I think we have a tendency, when we look at the teaching of the Church, to limit ourselves to those documents written in our lifetime. But we know that we can embrace the entire deposit of the faith and we can learn from every bit of it. It is helpful to read JPII's thought on marriage and submission and to see how the Church has taught us throughout time. These quotes appeared in my inbox this morning for your perusal:
Pius XII noted in an Allocution to newlyweds in 1941, that "the husband should show 'firm command' and the wife 'respectful, docile obedience' and a generous reciprocal giving in active and mutual love. This hierarchical arrangement permits what St. Augustine defines as the harmonious union of authority and obedience among those who live together." also Pius XII then cites a line from St. Augustine's De Civitate Dei (cf. St. Augustine in Chapter Three) regarding the importance of the hierarchy between the spouses. "This is the origin of domestic peace, or the well-ordered concord of those in the family who rule and those who obey." The Pope calls this the "ideal" for the Christian family: domestic peace, which is the fruit of order and affection. also Pius paraphrases the passage from De Civitate Dei 19.14 : All husbands should look to St. Joseph as their model. "Before him he saw the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, who was better, holier, more sublime than he. A sovereign respect caused him to venerate her as Queen of Angels and Men, the Mother of his God; and yet he remained and acted in his post as head of the Holy Family, nor was he ever found wanting in any of the supreme obligations which this role imposed upon him." Pius XII entreats wives that, by their "sincere submission you must love that authority and love it with the same respectful love you bear towards the authority of Our Lord Himself, from Whom all authority flows."
Con vivo gradimento (October 14, 1956) is an address by Pope Pius XII on the dignity of woman. He cites Galatians 3:28, but continues by saying that "this does not mean that Christian law does away with the limitations or proper subjection which arise from the demands of nature, of human and Christian propriety, or from the needs of life together, which cannot last long without some authority, even in its smallest unity, the family."
and
Pius XI proceeds by affirming that in accordance with both human dignity and Christian matrimony, husband and wife share many of the same rights and obligations. In some matters, however, "there must be a certain inequality and due accommodation, which is demanded by the good of the family and the right ordering and unity and stability of home life." also "essential order of the domestic society [must always] remain intact, founded as it is on something higher than human authority and wisdom, namely on the authority and wisdom of God, and so not changeable by public laws or at the pleasure of private individuals."
and
Pope Leo XIII:
The husband is the chief of the family and the head of the wife. The woman, because she is flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bone, must be subject to her husband and obey him; not, indeed, as a servant, but as a companion, so that her obedience shall be wanting in neither honor nor dignity. Since the husband represents Christ, and since the wife represents the Church, let there always be, both in him who commands and in her who obeys, a heaven-born love guiding both in their respective duties. For "the husband is the head of the wife; as Christ is the head of the Church. . . Therefore, as the Church is subject to Christ, so also let wives be to their husbands in all things." (Encyclical Letter Arcanum divinae[2] of February 10,1880, 18)
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Sarah
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Wow! I haven't been back since I posted this. I'm going to have to print this all out to read later. 
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Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
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Martha
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amyable wrote:
| it's totally in the wife's choice of words, tone of voice, and overall attitude. |
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ahhh, okay. This is an attitude thing then? I CAN see that. Condesending tone of voice, sarcasm, belittling, or passively/actively undermining... Yes. I do see that in many marriages today and it's horrible to witness. I'm still not sure it's a wife submission issue - who wants to sign on with a dh like that? yuck. But yes THAT is unmanning to a fellow. I completely agree there.
amyable wrote:
That sounds wonderful! I'm wondering if you and your husband are very similar in personality and temperment? ...
I do hope, Martha, this post didn't come off as argumentative with you...that was totally not my intent, and I always worry when I chose to quote someone. |
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Oh your post is just fine! no worry there.
My dh and I are actually very different people. Interesting. We've always thought that's why we get along. I have no idea how we ended up with each other. Over the years, we've both mellowed into a happy medium mix I suppose. Don't get me wrong - we argue.
But we DO want to please each other. Maybe that's the key?
Maybe the issue isn't a "leader" dh or a "submissive" wife. It sounds more and more to me like the issue is simple trust in and a willingness to please each other?
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Martha
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Elizabeth
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Martha wrote:
| Maybe the issue isn't a "leader" dh or a "submissive" wife. It sounds more and more to me like the issue is simple trust in and a willingness to please each other? |
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No I think there definitely is an issue of leadership and submission AND trust in and willingness to please. The Bible and the Church have both clearly made leadership and submission issues worth mentioning and explaining. We'd be foolish not to take it to prayer and really understand what it is God is asking.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Martha
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Elizabeth wrote:
| No I think there definitely is an issue of leadership and submission AND trust in and willingness to please. The Bible and the Church have both clearly made leadership and submission issues worth mentioning and explaining. We'd be foolish not to take it to prayer and really understand what it is God is asking. |
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hmmm okay then. That brings me back to wondering exactly what it is and if my friend is right and I've just already been trained and don't know it?
Are we saying if my dh cooks dinner he's not a leader/man? Or if I make a decision, I'm demeaning him and not a good wife? I have yet to hear a single example that doesn't seem common courtesy and kindness and common sense would apply to both. I just don't get it!
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Martha
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Bridget
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Martha, it sounds like it really isn't an issue in your house.
I wonder how many people visualize submission as a little woman bowing to her husband as she walks out of the room backwards, or a tightlipped, droopy faced lady with her hair in a straggly bun. 
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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ALmom
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There is a huge difference between being a doormat and being submissive. Communication of your needs and wants in a respectful way is part of true submission. Letting him know what you need or desire, your intuition in terms of difficulties with dc or whatever is based on the assumption that he has the ultimate right to make final decisions for the family, therefore you let him know what you see, etc. The final decision is his to make and once I have expressed my views, I allow him the time and space to come to his decision without nagging or badgering. And when the decision is made, whether or not it seems to incorporate your ideas, then it is cheerfully complied with. We do not arbitrarily override his expressed decisions or wishes. Now after a while you come to desire to submit because of the positive results and peace that are its fruits and are not as tempted to the opposite but in the beginning it may be a huge challenge. My dh has periodically come down strong on dc not eating in the car. Now what do I do when we are in a hurry and running behind? I have failed in submission when I decide on my own that they need to go ahead and grab on the run. I have been submissive when we all simply had to live with the consequences of our own disorder and we had to eat before we left the house. (Funny thing happened though -in letting the dc know that we'd have to eat before leaving because daddy told us not to eat in the car, suddenly the dc were all helping me get ready so we weren't late and I was much less frazzled in the end). It is much harder for me to be submissive in the small things - because I can find a thousand subtle ways to undermine my dh express wishes if I am not honest with myself. But the subtle undermining serves to disrupt authority in the family and the results are frustration because you find dh not leading, the dc not obeying you (they learn to respect your authority by seeing your respect for your dh authority). It is the subtle - Oh he really didn't mean that, or that wasn't important, etc. or simple inattentiveness so that you miss his express wishes - that leads to failure in the day to day.
Perhaps others have arrived at a perfection in submission (and don't ever feel the pull or temptation in the other direction). That is wonderful! When you achieve a perfection in any area, then it is sheer joy. When you read about the Saints, I am amazed at the degree of absolute joy they felt in suffering - they either got there by sheer gift of God in the moment of need or through real effort and struggle over many years with God's grace building on that effort. Just because it isn't work for a person now, doesn't mean it isn't submission. It could be that it is much easier for you because of the example in your own family and your spouses, because you developed much of this growing up in submission to your parents well exercised authority and you were spared the craziness of the world's message and subtle rebellion against all authority.
My dh and I have to work more at this because we both were heavily affected by the secular mantra. My dh was afraid of being considered selfish for wanting me to be at home when we married. I was afraid of being lazy if I stayed at home. Now neither of us expressed these thoughts, nor did my dh step forward to exercise leadership - it is very heavily ingrained in your government schools that you are being a chauvinist pig if you do not submit to the feminine. I was not taught to value the home, or the feminine arts but encouraged to out there and fight in a "man's" world. My dh and I both lost a lot in all of this but in striving to live according to St. Paul we are each learning to be who we were designed to be. It brings peace and joy to the family. I do know from the constant barrage in the other direction growing up that I have to very consciously strive for this. With time I am restored to my true feminine nature and don't have to work at it as much. It will come more automatically with practice. Hopefully, it will come more easily for our dc.
The rewards are tremendous.
I do know that the error of being a doormat is simply a mascaurade of real submission. If you are not informing your dh, then you are denying him very real information needed to make the decision. You are setting him up for failure which is far from loving and not real submission at all. You do not just throw everything out and tell dh to make a decision (who is really still trying to be in charge here?) You respectfully give him the information, and ask what he desires and give him time to come to a decision in his own way and according to his own timetable. (I tend to get impatient and try to rush dh to decision and then criticize the decision - that is not submission). Now there are things dh will delegate to my capable hands - the day to day schooling, etc. because he trusts my judgement. I am wise if I do periodically make sure things are going well in his mind. I am respecting his ultimate authority when I bring up difficulties and ask for his support.
Submission really is that humble attitude which recognizes dh authority in all things at all times. I must examine my attitude. When dh calls, do I drop what I am doing to attend to him or do I badger him for a few extra minutes to finish my job, etc. One thing my dh would really like is for us to have school done when he arrives home from work. I need to work on that so that it is so - and maybe I need to elicit his help in how we do schooling so that we can achieve this - but I never doubt that we must arrive at this point. Now this one is easier for me because I happen to agree with dh - but there were times that the softness of my heart, I felt like dh was a bit harsh on something, but submitted to his judgement. I have never regretted doing that - in one case I actually saw immediate improvement in a behavior issue at home and no negative results. Dh had rightly judged that I was allowing dc to get away with too much and they were capable of doing better and he insisted on immediate consequence. Other times, he didn't follow my instinct (as it didn't sound very reasonable to him) and made the decision but has later told me he has learned to trust my instinct. Now the decision was his to make, if it didn't come out the way he wanted, I still support him, encourage him and do not throw this in his face. The decision was rightfully his to make. If I did my part and gave him honest information, then I have done my part and know that good will come to us despite the error. (I have learned this over time. But I have also learned that I have tremendous power for harm here if I badger and complain and criticize).
I have also learned that my deepest need is for my dh leadership. When he is leading, then no matter what happens, there is a sense of security and peace that I never imagined. When he fails to lead, it is usually because I have failed to submit and have undermined his leadership in some way.
Janet
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lapazfarm
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My 2 cents:
I think it is also important to note that different husbands want and need different things from a wife. If we are to complement our husband and do his will, then this does not always mean having him make every little decision and meekly following his lead.
My dh would absolutely despise it if I turned meek on him. He married a strong, capable woman because that is what he wants and needs. He has enough to worry about without me having to turn to him for every little thing.
For example: Schooling decisions are largely mine. Although his input is invaluable, he mostly leaves the details up to me as he trusts my judgement. He knows I have thought longer and harder about it than he has and he appreciates being relieved of that process so he can turn his attention to other issues about which he is the more informed one. On issues where we both have opinions, we discuss and take each other's needs and feelings into account and come to a mutual decision. I don't think we have ever had a situation where we disagreed enough to warrant a major act of submission on my part, but I am open to that eventuality should it occur.
Does the fact that I am intelligent, strong, and capable mean I am not submissive? No way! I am giving dh just exactly what HE wants from a marriage. If I started going "Yes, dear" to everything he said I think he would run away!He truly would not respect me at all if I did not speak up for what I think and believe.
This does not mean arguing, however, it means an exchange of ideas, a meeting of the minds. We truly do compliment each other in every way. There are so many things that I don't want to have to worry about and I love that I can just leave it up to him!
I think one key is to marry a man whom you respect in the first place! My dh is so smart and capable that it is easy to trust his judgement. And you know what? He feels the same way about me!LOL!
I don't know if this is making alot of sense as I am just typing as I think of things, but I guess I just wanted to say that submission can look very different in different homes. By being strong and capable I am giving dh exactly what HE wants and he appreciates that. It does not make him feel like less of a man at all because I also give him the respect he deserves as the head of our household.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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Taffy
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Theresa, you made perfect sense to me and provided a voice for my thoughts on this topic. Thanks!
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Susan
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Bridget
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Rebecca wrote:
What happens if submitting to your husband means no more attachment parenting, public school/secular education for your children and mom possibly going back to work?
What happens when your entire lifestyle could change by submitting? I am not implying that all of these things would happen in my home but it certainly is possible. |
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This is what I think; I may have to duck the tomatoes here.
Unless it involves sin, you should submit in all things. It would be better for your children to have a father who is respected by their mother and is the leader in the home, than to have a life style that he cannot support.
Eventually the children will learn that dad is not someone worthy of their respect. They will follow mom's lead. Theologians throughout the ages have taught that dad is the child's first representation of God. It follows, and I certainly have seen it, that they often will reject God as their authority as their father was rejected as the authority.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Rebecca
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Helen
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lapazfarm wrote:
He married a strong, capable woman because that is what he wants and needs. He has enough to worry about without me having to turn to him for every little thing. ...
By being strong and capable I am giving dh exactly what HE wants and he appreciates that. |
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Submissiveness does not imply weakness. Self mastery is the ultimate strength. Many find it surprising that meekness is part of the virtue of fortitude – of great courage and strength. Meekness shows great ability – the ability to control oneself, to place oneself under another, leading to the greatest of all strengths, sanctity. Meekness is not inability. For example, a saint exercises complete conformity to the will of God, a saint is utterly submissive to God’s Will, and a saint is very strong.
St. Bernard
“Lord, what wilt Thou have me to do? Here is the true token of a soul absolutely perfect: when one has succeeded in leaving behind his own will to such a degree as no longer to seek, to aim, or to desire to do what he would will, but only what God wills.”
(A Year With the Saints from Tan Books)
I don't think Theresa is speaking about submissiveness and meekness but rather "weakness in character." They are different. Submissive doesn't mean softspoken person who never loses her temper. Submissive doesn't mean an easy going, let's take the easiest route, no fighting attitude. It can mean these things, but meekness/submissiveness is a virtue not a personality trait.
Bridget wrote:
Unless it involves sin, you should submit in all things. It would be better for your children to have a father who is respected by their mother and is the leader in the home, than to have a life style that he cannot support.
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I couldn't agree more.
St. Francis de Sales
"Our greatest fault is that we wish to serve God in our way, not in His way --according to our will, not according to His will. When He wishes us to be sick, we wish to be well; when He diseres us to serve Him by sufferings, we desire to serve Him by works; when He seeks from us resignation, we wish for devotion, a spirit of prayer, or some other virtue. And this is not because the things we desire may be more pleasing to Him, but because they are more to our taste. This is certainly the greatest obstacle we can raise to our own perfection, for it is beyond doubt that if we wish to be Saints according to our own will, we shall never be so at all. To be truly a Saint, it is necessary to be one according to the will of God."
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Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
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Martha
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Bridget wrote:
Unless it involves sin, you should submit in all things. It would be better for your children to have a father who is respected by their mother and is the leader in the home, than to have a life style that he cannot support.
Eventually the children will learn that dad is not someone worthy of their respect. They will follow mom's lead. Theologians throughout the ages have taught that dad is the child's first representation of God. It follows, and I certainly have seen it, that they often will reject God as their authority as their father was rejected as the authority. |
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hmm. absolutely no tomatoes from me.
There is more (or should be) to a parent/child relationship than respect. I may have respected my dad, but I never cared for him. And he was definitely the leader in the house. I didn't respect my mother at all.
I agree with Teresa. My dh and I have our family motto and we stick to it. Family takes care of family. Whatever it takes, that's what we do. We don't think about what the wife or the husband should do. We just do it for the family and move on. Together.
Oh and we are not perfect in anything yet. so no "sheer joy" on that front yet.
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Martha
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MacBeth
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Bridget wrote:
It would be better for your children to have a father who is respected by their mother and is the leader in the home, than to have a life style that he cannot support.
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Yes...(no tomatoes)  .
But doesn't it (mustn't it?) work both ways? Shouldn't a husband have a deep respect for the thoughts and feelings of the wife, especially in the home? Here is where I think his job is tough. Sure, he needs the respect of wife and family, but he must give respect, too. While it is imperative that he be respected, and, in the end, given the final authority in the home, so he must hear advice given in love and wisdom by his wife...and I think St. Paul is saying this, clearly, when he exhorts husbands to love their wives. Mindless submission (the kind I was joking about in an earlier post; not suggesting that anyone here does this) is not conducive to a good marriage, ever.
My m-i-l was never respected by her dh, nor by her sons, who imitated their dad. All they did was make fun of her. It was horrifying; as a "stranger" looking in, I saw a woman abused! If my dh gives me any of "that" old habit, I stop him immediately, and walk away. The hardest thing for me is determining what is a reasonable circumstance requiring submission, and what is mean-spirited domination requiring me to walk away for a bit. OK...maybe not the hardest. The hardest thing is discerning when dh is joking around (he put the header "I will obey my husband in all things" on the top of my web browser and I cannot figure out how to remove it ), and when he is serious and needs me to be on board.
And if I am "submissive" is it just because I am feeling lazy or too tired to argue? Or is it because I know it is the right thing to do? And are both means of submission valid ways of responding to Christ as St. Paul requires?
Bridget wrote:
with her hair in a straggly bun.
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I think my straggly bun is cute.
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Wives Subordinate in Everything
