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Rebecca
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WJFR wrote:
I could write another long post about the benefits of Latin, so I'm not trying to minimize that. |
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Willa, I be interested in that post!  I have been trying to do some serious self-convincing that we should continue to do Latin. We started the roots cards two years ago and LCI last year (just vocabulary). We began LCI again this year, at the beginning again because our retention was not there. My ten year old is mildly interested in learning Latin. I began it two years ago with him because we were loosely following Laura Berquist's syllabi for elementary school. I certainly could use some encouragement as to why it is important. I understand the grammar argument to an extent. I would like our family to know all of the Latin hymns and parts of the Mass but beyond that, what are the most important reasons to learn it?
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StephanieA
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<alouds. There is truly only so much you can do & I find that I have to pray alot about what we're supposed to be focusing on. Making Latin the priority was really an answer to pray for me. >
Brenda,
PRAYING about what we are suppose to focus on as a family is right on target. For us, our great love is history. I can't get away from it. My kids read it constantly. My husband and I talk about it quite a lot....especially as it deals with the Church. We are back to doing ABC's of Christian Culture this semester together as a family before the baby is born. This is what we needed to do. For us, it isn't Latin. I couldn't believe my oldest is in college studying math and chemistry. I barely got him through Algebra 1 and 1/2 of semester of chemistry here at home. However, he ate, slept, and drank history books, field trips, and projects (he took 2nd place in state in the senior division at History Day with his project 3 years ago and loved nearly every minute of it. And we're talking A LOT of research). History is important to us as a family for some reason. I think it is God's will for us or else why would He put such desire to learn it in our minds and hearts? I wanted to make Latin our focus because it seemed so right, and it is right for some families. I'm glad there are Catholic families focusing on Latin because I think we will need future leaders in the Church who know the Church's language well. I think this is especially important for any of our young men discerning a vocation to the priesthood. I believe possibly that one of my sons may have such a vocation. At least I have given him a start if indeed he is called, albeit a weak start at best.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Anne Marie M
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I'd love to join the discussion with some fantastic original insights, but we've had a super busy August. . . and school starts for us on Tuesday. . . and I'm feeling like those old, tired, veteran homeschoolers that I knew when I started homeschooling!
I've been thinking through a lot of these issues this summer, and we're moving towards more of a Latin-centered curriculum. It has simplified my planning - we'll see how it plays out in real life.
Rebecca, rather than list reasons for Latin, let me refer you to two of Drew Campbell's posts on his website:
Why Latin?
and The Pearl at the Center, which discusses the rationale for reading the classics in the original.
On a related note, my ds (who's now a freshman at University of Dallas) took an online class on Aquinas. They read much of it in the original Latin. He saw the beauty of reading Aquinas in the original - he said it was much easier, in many cases, than figuring out what he meant in English.
Back to last minute school preparation (I can't believe that I still have a few books to order) -
Anne Marie in NM
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Elizabeth
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WJFR wrote:
Latinists think Latin is important, and the Pope did mention, in Divini Illius Magistri, the reckless and disastrous element in how quickly and thoroughly our society in the generations previous to us dropped our Latin heritage along with almost every other traditional means of enculturation. Because of that, those of us who are interested in the good old things are trying to rekindle an ember rather than just pass along a torch. I guess we get credit for trying, like the illiterate pirate said about reading the Bible  |
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Okay, this kept me up last night. When you put it this way, it sounds like Latin should be at the top of everyone's priority list. Since I pretty much failed to teach it at so many different levels here, I think we need a tutor. So, I'm looking at all my plans--indeed my very philosophy--to keep things simple, to stay out of the car during school hours, to use what I have and not purchase much of anything new and I'm fretfully considering that the quote above calls me to ditch them. Truth is, I'm not getting it done in the Latin department, beyond prayers and vocabulary. A great tutor is at least half an hour away. My kids would be in three different age groups (I think) and it would cost a bundle. Is this what Divini Illius Magistri is calling me to do?
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BrendaPeter
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StephanieA wrote:
For us, our great love is history. I can't get away from it. My kids read it constantly. My husband and I talk about it quite a lot....especially as it deals with the Church. We are back to doing ABC's of Christian Culture this semester together as a family before the baby is born. This is what we needed to do. For us, it isn't Latin. I couldn't believe my oldest is in college studying math and chemistry. I barely got him through Algebra 1 and 1/2 of semester of chemistry here at home. However, he ate, slept, and drank history books, field trips, and projects (he took 2nd place in state in the senior division at History Day with his project 3 years ago and loved nearly every minute of it. And we're talking A LOT of research). History is important to us as a family for some reason. I think it is God's will for us or else why would He put such desire to learn it in our minds and hearts?
Blessings,
Stephanie |
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Oh Stephanie,
You put this so well!!! And I totally agree that God puts certain things on our hearts.
We LOVE history here too. I've made Latin our focus for just a 1/2 hour/day so that we can spend a majority of our "free" time learning history. We study history in a more casual way though than - reading it, watching videos, listening to tapes & organizing our timeline. The challenge (as we're reading here!) is fitting it all in which is a big reason why prayer is so crucial.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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StephanieA
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tutor is at least half an hour away. My kids would be in three different age groups (I think) and it would cost a bundle. Is this what Divini Illius Magistri is calling me to do? [/QUOTE]
Elizabeth,
Is this what Divini Illuis Magistri is calling YOU to do?
I think you answered this for yourself a post ago  Are YOU drawn to Latin so much that the travel, cost, and extra work will be worth it? Is this what God is calling a mother with a newborn baby and 7 other children to do? Are any of your kids really interesting in doing this? Is this an innate interest for any of them?
I liken the call to Latin to the daily Mass. I REALLY want to go to daily Mass. Could I MAKE it happpen? Yes, but at a big cost to my health and the family's sanity. It would be at least a 45 minute round trip drive, etc.
I don't know about other larger families, but I have to start by 8:30 in the morning and to get completely done with 5-6 kids by 3:00. I believe in attending to my interuptions (ie. toddler and soon be infant)during the day too. They are also my calling by God. To make this short, it is not what God is calling me to do right now although it is what "I" desire.
Latin, for us, is the same way. I know it is important to me and really the best language to begin with. But is it an essential for our family? Isn't music important also for God's glory? Macbeth and her family is called to study music indepth. Isn't the Church also calling for a reform in liturgical music? Maybe Libby will serve God in the reformation of the liturgy in some capacity later on even though she may not be a Latinist. (For all I know Libby may know German and Latin equally as well Can different mediums glorify God? Certainly. What is God's plan for OUR families? Is there a BEST? Yes, a best for US. Religious life IS the best according to the Church, but we all aren't called to this life. Reading biographies on the holy lives of secular saints (Tan publication) and the Martins can valify that each of us has a specific calling by God.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Willa
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Truth is, I'm not getting it done in the Latin department, beyond prayers and vocabulary. A great tutor is at least half an hour away. My kids would be in three different age groups (I think) and it would cost a bundle. Is this what Divini Illius Magistri is calling me to do? |
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Well, I'm not doing it. Not even close! It would not be right for us; it would get in the way of other things.
If Divini Illius Magistri mentioned the dropping of Latin in passing during the course of an encyclical which was largely about reclaiming Christian education in the face of modern secularism, well.... I had better pull myself out of this sentence which will soon become endless....
IF as I say, he happened to do this, I think it was talking to a general trend in our society. It was much more incidental than the Church's constant message, reiterated with great fatherly sadness in Divini, that it is temporal cares that sap the very life and spirit out of our educational and formational efforts. Spending big bucks and driving all over the state sounds like temporal cares to me.
I do not, personally, think it is worth it.
I am not doing it.
I think it could backfire.
Money, time and energy gone and maybe the mom and kids would end up resenting Latin, defeating the original purpose.
I was up last night too, though not because of Pope Pius XII. Actually, I was thinking more about Stephanie's posts. I think she was very insightful about recognizing what torches we, ourselves, our own families, are being asked to carry on.
The past few generations threw away a LOT of old cultural torches, I think.
The good, old, literature.
Living history.
The good, old music.
The old languages.
Nature study
The old devotions and spiritual practices (probably should have put that first)
Are we really expected to singlehandedly revive everything in each individual family? Isn't it more likely that we each have our own part to play in "making something beautiful for God?"
Aren't we planting seeds that may fully come to fruition only in our children or grandchildren?
Am I expected to know as much about liturgy as Jenn does-- that's obviously deeply recommended by the Church--- or shuttle my kids all over the state for athletics like you do-- rigorous athletics were highly recommended for Christian virtue by Pope John Paul II? Or follow music and science on the level of MacBeth's family? I somehow don't think so. Aren't we part of Christ's Body, not the whole body, in our own selves?
Elizabeth -- you so inspire me with your willingness to go where you think God is calling. If he was really calling for this however I do not think it would be so contradictory to other more valuable priorities. I regret what I said. I process by tossing things around in the air and pondering them, but it takes me a long time to actually decide, and act. But I should know not everyone is like that! Mea culpa....
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Elizabeth
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WJFR wrote:
Elizabeth -- you so inspire me with your willingness to go where you think God is calling. If he was really calling for this however I do not think it would be so contradictory to other more valuable priorities. I regret what I said. I process by tossing things around in the air and pondering them, but it takes me a long time to actually decide, and act. But I should know not everyone is like that! Mea culpa.... |
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Oh, please don't regret it! I love it when you think aloud. it makes me think aloud.
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time4tea
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StephanieA wrote:
| What attracted me initially to classical education was its strong foundation in language, (for us, especially English, memorization of the basics |
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(Sorry, I am stepping in here late. For whatever reason, the individual messages were not reaching my home pc, so I didn't realize the "conversation" was continuing!)
Regarding the memorization aspect - is that really a part of classical education, or was that emphasis added later, for example, by the ideas of Dorothy Sayers?? While I do not discount the overall value of memorization as a tool to train the mind and memory, in my opinion, it can be over-emphasized. Not to pick on one curriculum per se, but the heavy, heavy focus on memorization is the one thing that really turned me off from using MODG in the early grades. My dc got tired and frustrated of rambling off what seemed like endless lists of information. I have not noticed quite the same level of emphasis on memorization in the early curriculum of Kolbe. Since Laura Berquist seems to draw so heavily on Dorothy Sayers, I was wondering if this aspect came from her.
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Bookswithtea
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Elizabeth wrote:
| It seems funny to me to lump LB with SWB in one category (neo-classical) because their approaches are not the same at all. |
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I guess I can see the point that if the definition of Neo Classical is the stages concept, then they are similar. However, I completely agree with you that it doesn't seem fair to lump SWB and LB together. I always took LB's last chapter on high school readings as a subtle response to the SWB reading lists.
I confess I have a hard time with the focus in history in the Latin curriculums. I do think Greece and Rome deserve a good studying. But I also think the 20th century deserves study. Jmho
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Elizabeth
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| I guess I can see the point that if the definition of Neo Classical is the stages concept, then they are similar. However, I completely agree with you that it doesn't seem fair to lump SWB and LB together. I always took LB's last chapter on high school readings as a subtle response to the SWB reading lists. |
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I guess truth is truth no matter when it's written but Laura came first.
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StephanieA
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[
memorization is the one thing that really turned me off from using MODG in the early grades. My dc got tired and frustrated of rambling off what seemed like endless lists of information. I have not noticed quite the same
We don't (or have ever) used MODG, but I do have LB's book. I couldn't accomplish all she requires in grade school, and other subjects appeal to us in high school at different grades and with different kids. But I do refer to the book for reading lists, etc.
That said, I do find memorization of useful facts, useful. We memorize catechism questions in grade school because it makes discussions so much easier in high school. We memorize math facts for faster computations. We memorize countries and states and some historical dates, because it forms a basis for our history studies. We also memorize music (in Suzuki violin) and poetry.
What I did find repetitively boring was Latin declensions day in and day out. I figured out, for us, I would rather be speaking Spanish to the kids or listening to their music or poetry in the earlier-middle grades. Also memorizing English grammar can get downright boring, so I have limited memorization to list of prepositions and this has seemed to help with analyzing grammar in 6th and 7th grades. I really don't care if this is neo-classical or pre-classical or classical
If I have tried it and it fails in our family or for a particular child, I have learned to let go of it. If it brings out a desire to learn more or is needed to build a basis for further study, we do it.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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time4tea
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Okay, let me clarify my earlier statement so as not to step on any toes....
StephanieA wrote:
| That said, I do find memorization of useful facts, useful. |
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Yes, I agree. I also agree that, for example, States and their Capitals are important useful facts, but for me, it makes more sense to study them in context, as opposed to just memorizing this information to utilize it at some later time. In my perusing of MODG syllabi, I have noticed this to be the case - information, whether useful or not, is memorized for the sake of memorization, which is what Dorothy Sayers describes (and LB echoes) as the "Poll Parrot" stage of the Trivium. Another example is the MODG approach to studying Latin, whereby the student just memorizes the chants and vocab in year one, and actually goes through the LC1 workbook in year 2 to complete the exercises. I am fluent in German, have a certification from a German language school , and worked as a translator in Munich for a German company. For me, this study of language does not make sense; it seems unnatural to me to just memorize parts of a language without looking at the language in the full context of how it is to be understood, and for me, this includes simultaneous (or as soon thereafter as possible) application of what has been memorized, not waiting a year to do so. However, if you subscribe to the theories of Dorothy Sayers/LB, and the "poll parrot" stage, it would make perfect sense to just memorize and apply much later on.
In the end, it won't change how I run my homeschool if Memoria Press, Laura Berquist or Latin Centered Curriculum are neo-, pre- or post-classical, but I think it is good food for discusion (not to mention just downright interesting to hears others' opinions on this!) for the Classical Education forum, and that's why I started this thread
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JuliaT
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I have struggles with the whole memorization issue. I do have my children memorize poetry. When the time comes, I will have them memorize Latin grammar and some parts of English grammar. In my opinion those things are useful.
I don't see where memorizing the list of Pharoahs or the Kings and Queens of Britain is helpful. It is more important to me that my children become familiar with these people through stories rather than being able to recite a list.
I used to think that memorization was a neo--classical characteristic but I know many traditional classicists who put a heavy emphasis on memorization as well. So I am not sure about this anymore.
Julia
http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/Juliainsk
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Willa
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time4tea wrote:
| it seems unnatural to me to just memorize parts of a language without looking at the language in the full context of how it is to be understood, and for me, this includes simultaneous (or as soon thereafter as possible) application of what has been memorized, not waiting a year to do so. However, if you subscribe to the theories of Dorothy Sayers/LB, and the "poll parrot" stage, it would make perfect sense to just memorize and apply much later on |
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I think it's true that little kids like to memorize. My kids know storybooks by heart, nursery rhymes, scripts of their favorite videos, etc. Aidan can lead the whole rosary. He knows every single prayer by heart including the Apostles Creed and the Memorare. They don't have to understand what they're saying in order to enjoy it. In fact, I think they prefer things that sound a bit mysterious. Dorothy Sayers was probably right on there.
But where the problem comes in at my house is that they like memorizing things that are meaningful to them. Latin chants don't exactly qualify. I am having to rethink because of this. And they don't like having to perform "on call". If I sat down to "make" Aidan memorize a prayer he would probably not enjoy it or remember it as long.
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Willa
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Willa
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Also, Ignatian tradition was that high school kids can memorize much more easily than younger kids and I have certainly found that to be true. I always wondered why I could get a catechism q down five times as fast as my kids, even though I am middle aged and they are young. Probably something to do with understanding the concepts better.
I think dates and such are better memorized after, or at least concurrently with, lots of stories rather than in isolation. I read so much in childhood that I gave myself a historical education. When I was in high school I chose to hand-copy out an encyclopedia of world history to consolidate all the dates and put them in order in my mind. That's how I approach it with my kids, too.
There is also the issue of retrieval. Anything memorized as a song will still have to be connected whether explicitly or not with what it's useful for.
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StephanieA
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I always wondered why I could get a catechism q down five times as fast as my kids, even though I am middle aged and they are young. Probably something to do with understanding the concepts better.
Bingo....you are connecting the concepts. Catechism questions begin to make sense in high school. Case in point. Yesterday the 3rd grader was memorizing grace: sanctifying grace, actual grace, and the difference. Did she understand it? No. But after nightly prayer we had a round discussion about it with the teen boys. They understood it, but she was excited about it, because she "knew" a little too, since she had the memorized the answer. Someday she will understand it and make connections through life experiences.
The boys don't remember the pat answer and when we get to 7th and 8th grade, we memorize the concepts, not the exact wording (although the kids are realizing that sometimes the exact wording is easier). We use "Living our Religion" so it explains the catechism questions in context which is better for us than just memorizing a bunch of questions to give on command. And we discuss what we are learning as it applies to that child's personal life and/or world events as the kids get older.
Ummm...religion usually takes a quite a while. Talk about rabbit trails
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Bookswithtea
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WJFR wrote:
| Also, Ignatian tradition was that high school kids can memorize much more easily than younger kids and I have certainly found that to be true. I always wondered why I could get a catechism q down five times as fast as my kids, even though I am middle aged and they are young. Probably something to do with understanding the concepts better. |
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I didn't know that! I always thought I was a freak of nature for not pushing memorization in the early years. I've noticed that memorization assignments are so much easier with my son now that he's older. You've made my day, with this little bit of info. Thank you.
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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StephanieA
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An interesting side note. I was discussing the concept vs. memorization issue regarding mathematics with a high school/college math professor last year. We had used Math-U-See for the explanations for dividing fractions. I found the concept of why we invert the second fraction, fascinating. However, after several months and actually dividing fractions, the kids forgot the whys and could not longer explain it. I was telling him this, and he laughed. He explained that often we teach kids by memorization earlier than they can really understand what they are doing. It isn't until algebra that the properties are studied, like the multiplicative identity axiom. Then the kids can understand why we can invert the second fraction. He further explained that the memorization of the quadratic equation is important in algebra, but kids really don't understand it until they get to calculus. Then it comes together for them. My two oldest sons can attest to this.
I think memorization also takes a lengthier attention span, thus it is easier in the upper grades. Otherwise, why is there SO many "teaching" songs marketed especially in the homeschooling community? They many times overwhelm the student, rather than truly help them.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Willa
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Rebecca, some more links in lieu of the post, for now -- we just got back into town and are going out again until Friday:
Why Latin?
Latin and improved test scores
Pope John XXIII on Value of Latin
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Is MODG "Neo-Classical"?
