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time4tea
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Leonie,
Did you mean in your first post that you do not permit dating before age 18? We re currently beginning to try to grapple with this as our older ds gets further into the teen years and is beginning to show interest in girls. Thanks for your help (and also anyone else who would like to chime in!)
Blessings on your day,
Tea
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KathrynTherese
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I just want to let you all know that, after 2 weeks of wrestling with my daughter's attitude, I really feel like we got through this evening. My dh and I sat her down (for the 3rd time together, while we each talked with her separately twice) and finally made some progress. She softened her attitude and spoke frankly (and I hope honestly) about what has been going on.
We don't know everything, and we have a way to go, but I feel more at peace than I have in several weeks. She was laughing with us again, and even moved from her cold stance on the window seat and came and sat with us on the couch. A regular love-fest 
Time will tell whether she is able to walk the walk, but the talk was good. And I feel more than ever that our assessment is right - she is not disturbed or hurting, but only caught up in a fad.
I said to her, "Does this mean we can go out for coffee again and you will be 100% honest, instead of that 87% I was getting before?" She said, "Yeah. I can be honest. Can we go tomorrow?"
We're still working out the new rules for her, but I feel hopeful.
Thanx for all your prayers and words of encouragement! I hope I never have to reciprocate them for your teens 
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JennGM
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KathrynTherese wrote:
I just want to let you all know that, after 2 weeks of wrestling with my daughter's attitude, I really feel like we got through this evening. My dh and I sat her down (for the 3rd time together, while we each talked with her separately twice) and finally made some progress. She softened her attitude and spoke frankly (and I hope honestly) about what has been going on.
We don't know everything, and we have a way to go, but I feel more at peace than I have in several weeks. She was laughing with us again, and even moved from her cold stance on the window seat and came and sat with us on the couch. A regular love-fest
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 Continued prayers, but I'm glad there was some progress.
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Leonie
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KathrynTherese wrote:
| I just want to let you all know that, after 2 weeks of wrestling with my daughter's attitude, I really feel like we got through this evening. |
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Oh, very good!
I will continue to say prayers....
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Leonie
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time4tea wrote:
Leonie,
Did you mean in your first post that you do not permit dating before age 18? Tea |
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Yes, I guess that is true - I say guess cos it is not so much a rule but it is an ongoing discussion and conversation and expectation.
The teen years are times of growth and dating can confuse issues. Friends and group activities are fine and fun. 
My older sons began dating when over 18 - and even then with cautions/restraint, iykwim?
Jonathon will go the movies as part of a group from our church's youth band, for example. Trust comes in here - but we adults drop off and pick up and I know he agrees with our thoughts, from discussions and things he tells his friends.
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mumofsix
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Hi Kathryn Therese: I am jumping in a little bit late to this, but I just wanted to encourage you. Isn't it interesting that some of our children are drawn so by the peer group, and others just aren't? My own dd 16 is not troubled in the least by any of this, but my ds now 18 certainly has been, so I really sympathise with you. Apparently eldest children are quite often this way, and lack confidence compared with their younger siblings, who do not have to blaze a trail in quite the same way: they can learn from their elder siblings' mistakes (and successes).
I would say that all the empathy and understanding you are showing is very important, as is the effort you are making to spend time with your daughter and "keep her heart". All that builds attachment, and therefore conscience. However, structure is equally important: do continue to banish from your home anything you dislike or are unsure of and to impose regulation of the computer and other forms of electronic entertainment if she cannot do this for herself, and do keep her away from toxic "friends". You have a right to do this, and your younger children have the right to a wholesome atmosphere in your home. Your integrity is important, to you and to her.
There are many parents who believe their children would never lie to them. They take no account of original sin and its affect on our will, or that of our less mature children, or of the basic desire and need of our children to have our esteem. It is in fact always a possibility to be borne in mind. Trust has to be earned.
I was cheered up today by a brother who is staying with us for a few days. He was speaking of a priest he worked with in the former Soviet Union, who likes challenges. He chose to work with the most hardened prisoners. He said, "You do not always see the results you want in the time frame you hope for. You need a lot of faith". Well our situation is quite a bit easier than that, to put it mildly, but we too need faith, that our God loves these children even more than we do and will never abandon them, and will give us the graces we need to do what we should for them.
It does get better.
Jane.
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mumofsix
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As for dating under age 18: absolutely not. No under 18 year old is in a position to marry, so dating is pointless and can only lead to frustration and temptation. I really think it is that simple.
If a young person is within a year or two of graduating from college or is already earning their own living and can support a family or hope to do so within a year or two, then yes dating is relevant, and not otherwise. A clear statement of policy on this can be so helpful to teenagers, and give them precious extra years of tranquillity in which to develop ordinary friendships and pursue an education without emotionally painful distractions.
Jane.
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Elizabeth
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Kathryn,
 I missed the beginning of this thread because I had no computer. What a wonderful discussion you all have had.
Be assured my prayers for you and Clare.
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KathrynTherese
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mumofsix wrote:
Hi Kathryn Therese: I am jumping in a little bit late to this, but I just wanted to encourage you. Isn't it interesting that some of our children are drawn so by the peer group, and others just aren't?
...I would say that all the empathy and understanding you are showing is very important, as is the effort you are making to spend time with your daughter and "keep her heart". All that builds attachment, and therefore conscience. ..
I was cheered up today by a brother who is staying with us for a few days. He was speaking of a priest he worked with in the former Soviet Union, who likes challenges. He chose to work with the most hardened prisoners. He said, "You do not always see the results you want in the time frame you hope for. You need a lot of faith". |
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This quote IS encouraging, and your encouragement couldn’t have come at a better time, Jane. I am really struggling with my own frustration and confusion here. Clare is VERY affected by peer pressure and the culture at large. Her younger teen brother is not at all, though maybe this is often the case with boys.
Your prayers are deeply and eternally appreciated. I am trying very hard to have open and honest communication with her, but it seems that every time I think that we have made some progress, I find out that she was not being as honest as I’d hoped, and that she is covering up a lot of her own anger and whatever. This is so difficult for me as a mother, as we have always had a very good mother-daughter thing going. We have a lot of fun together, we talk a lot, I enjoy her company. But we’re missing something here, and the truth that I cannot determine what that is or why is really difficult.
We will continue to do what we do and pray and talk and hope. Meanwhile, I am counting on your prayers!
Thanx!
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KathrynTherese
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Elizabeth -
How many times have we wished we were near each other so that those cyber-hugs were real?!
I appreciate your thoughts and prayers very much.
Meanwhile, if you have any words of wisdom, don't hesitate to share them
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Leonie
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KathrynTherese wrote:
| Your prayers are deeply and eternally appreciated. I am trying very hard to have open and honest communication with her, but it seems that every time I think that we have made some progress, I find out that she was not being as honest as I’d hoped, and that she is covering up a lot of her own anger and whatever. |
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Still praying - and I will talk to J.
But wanted to re-iterate what I said earlier - if discussion doesn't work we move to challenges and "putting our foot down". As parents, we are also responsible to God for our actions and I tell our dc this.
I know we are on the same page but wanted to encourage.
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KathrynTherese
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Leonie,
Absolutely. We have made all privileges (this includes phone, tv, computer, driving… and it will soon mean a doorknob on her bedroom door) dependent on her being responsible enough to complete some tasks. For example, she has not been on the phone with her “co-conspirator” since we learned of all this activity. And she will be allowed to call her at last on Sunday IF her room is clean and she gets out of bed every morning by a specified time (she likes to sleep in late… because she had been up until the wee hours on the computer, we found out later). She has gotten up, and she is cleaning her room now (she was never much for planning ahead, but she had Music Camp all week, so that prevented her from cleaning the room). So we will let her call tomorrow, but she now has a 30 minute limit.
We don’t want to break off this friendship altogether, and I have spoken with the girl’s mom and we are on the same page – I think if both girls know both sets of parents are watching, they won’t have much wiggle room and they can encourage each other to take a step up. But at this point, I’m expecting to have to come down on her and take away her phone time again…
And we have told her that these things aren't to be considered "punishment," though she will of course see them that way. But they are simply rules by which everyone must live, and if she is unable to impose limits on herself, we will have to impose them for her - it's our God-given responsibility. No adult can talk for hours on the phone or online, or spend their day the way they wish (my dh narrated an hysterical word-picture of Mom spending the day the way Clare does, and how absurd that would be; I softened that by saying we do not expect her to be the mom, but this is not a boarding house where she can do as she pleases).
I'm rambling. But I wanted to give you some idea of the tone of our discipline, so that you all can tweak it for me. I'm so open to suggestions I might as well be empty.
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Elizabeth
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Something strikes me. I have no conclusions but an observation. Everyone was alarmed by the cutting and fasting. Initially, the thought seemed to be that Claire was seeking to control something in her life, so she chose fasting and cutting to get that control. Then, it came up that fasting and cutting are emo things, so the control theory was abandoned for a peer influence or pressure theory. Are the two theories mutally exclusive? Does one treat the alarming behaviour differently depending on whether it stems from a desire for control or an emo-related act? Would fasting and cutting have occurred to her outside of the emo influence? Would she have done it even in the face of the influence if she weren't searching for some control? No one wants her child to so desperately want control that she hurts herself. OTOH, I think Kathryn's gut is telling her that she needs more parental controls, not fewer...
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KathrynTherese
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Are the two theories mutally exclusive? Does one treat the alarming behaviour differently depending on whether it stems from a desire for control or an emo-related act? Would fasting and cutting have occurred to her outside of the emo influence? Would she have done it even in the face of the influence if she weren't searching for some control? No one wants her child to so desperately want control that she hurts herself. OTOH, I think Kathryn's gut is telling her that she needs more parental controls, not fewer... |
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I have wrestled this myself, Elizabeth. And I'm still not sure, though I am pretty sure that she has not been cutting, and I have seen her eating. She's not lost more weight. Do a lot of 16yo girls think their parents are oppressive? Probably. Every time they can't do exactly what they want, they need to blame someone.
I can’t imagine what more control Clare could want. If anything, we have erred on the side of allowing her too much freedom, and not imposing enough control. My family has often said that we are too lax with our dc because we talk too much and allow them to talk and we don’t seem to be yelling and grounding them enough. They are very old school. We like to allow our dc to be involved, to understand why they have to do certain things, to have some input even, especially on decisions that affect them directly.
I am the oldest of 8, and my family was not so functional, so I had a lot on my lap – too much to take on at a young age. So I was always careful not to ask Clare to be a “second mom,” because these are my children, not hers – so we probably gave Clare too much freedom, and did not demand enough from her. But she seemed to be responsible enough to handle it. Emphasis on SEEMED. She found a bad niche apparently, and she told me right where it started two years ago – some bad friends who smoked pot, turned her on to MySpace and the whole subculture. “Friends,” incidentally, who come from good Catholic homes and with whom she associated for about 6 weeks. It doesn’t take long for the devil to find an “in.”
So I am following my gut, but also listening to the counselor and the priest to whom Clare confessed and who is a good friend of our family. He, of course, has not said a word about what she said in the confessional; but I think I can assume that he will not lead me astray when he suggests that we watch her carefully and keep a tight rein on her for a while.
Still, I'm not confident in my own ability to judge here. I am praying and trusting and listening to you all with ears wide open. I know that God won't let us screw this up too badly, because we have no agenda of our own, but in the interim, it can be very confusing and disheartening. It is painful to see your daughter make a lot of wrong choices, when you thought the foundation was pretty firm. I mean, we all do stupid things (I do them every day), but to watch them wrestle against everything you've taught them is hard. I still think this is not really her; Fr Spiritual Director says she is really hoping that we will prevent her from doing anything more than she has done, even though she will complain every step of the way. My mom says the same thing. But still...
Yowza.
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StephanieA
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*I am the oldest of 8, and my family was not so functional, so I had a lot on my lap – too much to take on at a young age.*
I am also the oldest of 9, but while my family was functional, I had A LOT of responsibilities....too many, I believe. Consequently, I am trying to balance this with my teens.
That said, they need some responsibility. My oldest wanted a cell phone (19) at college, but we didn't feel as if he needed it. So he purchased it himself. It had to go in our name, because he had no credit. So he paid us and we paid the bill. I began to think this was a stupid plan, because I was still responsible to pay. So I told him HE had to go by the store and pay cash or get a checking account and pay from it. He balked. I resolutely stood my ground. If he didn't pay ONE time on time, we would pull the account. He has to learn financial responsibility and I don't mind being a bit harder on him than a bank would initially.
As far as peer pressure, I think it is the personality of the child....period. I was the oldest and peer pressure was not even an issue with me. I didn't care. My closest younger sister was drawn to peers and their influence much more. My oldest boy is influenced by his peers. The second son (16) doesn't care a hoot what his peers think or do. Just different personalities.
Only thought besides our prayers. I think many (most) of the chat rooms/Myspace or I can't think of the name of the one my son was involved in at college, can be a real problem. I banned my son's site from our house after I read how trashy the talk can get. Not that was all that way or even most of that way most of the time...but still. I would rather have him on the phone with a single person or have a friend or two over. My oldest went behind our back and reinstalled his account. I found out (the computer is in the dining room) and I put a block on the site. Peer influence was too much for him, and he disregarded our rule. Granted, he did have some very valid reasons for continuing to communicate on this forum...including class schedule changes, tutoring changes, study group schedules, etc. But another avenue was available if he choose to do a little more work and let the others know ahead of time that his account was deleted.
Something I have learned in the last couple of years. I try to parent each child differently. Sure I have an overall plan, but some children just need more structure, while others need more freedom and space. On my walks, I think about these things and how to deal with each one. We are on a roller coaster with our oldest at times. Sometimes, he can be SO responsible, helpful, affectionate, generous, and darn right sweet. And then we hit a valley where I am thinking....ummm...can we send him AWAY to college? Can he take more CLEPS and get out earlier? How about summer school? Then things settle down and we get a good kid back again. It's frustrating.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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StephanieA
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I asked my second son what the site was that my oldest used. It was Facebook. It is not a chat room, but a profile-type email system. The problem again may not be the forum itself (although it has its inherent problems), but the forum with a particular child. I found that my oldest was spending way too much time reading everyone's profile where some people would post vulgar songs, activities, and suggestive photos of themselves - Wow, some of these girls these days
I really think this was influencing him in a bad way.
Other profiles/emails were harmless and useful. But with a child already prone to peer pressure, this type of interaction can be fuel for the fire. We parents are telling/advising one thing and the child is exposed to a whole other perspective. They aren't going to see the problems that are evident to us because they lack the wisdom and experience.
The best thing is to eliminate the source of what may be a bad influence for this child.
Our children aren't going to tell us everything (did we tell our parents everything?) and if our gut (maybe the Holy Spirit?) advises us that something is amiss, then I think it is wise to act on it.
Anyway, I knew that Facebook was a problem for my oldest. The email profile-system that your daughter uses may be a problem for her also. Kids tend to just "let their thoughts flow" on these emails. They probably should be keeping some of these ideas to themselves
They aren't necessary helpful or useful to other teens.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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KathrynTherese
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Stephanie, you have summed up a great deal in these two posts, and our thinking is very much the same regarding the differing personalities of our children, requiring them to take responsibility, and the affects of the Internet being different on certain kids. Some kids just can't handle that much freedom and anonymity.
I also concur with the roller coaster with the oldest. She seems so responsible and generous... and then we find out something like this going on in the background. And really, it is in the background, because all day long she is with the family, interacting normally, whining about jobs but still doing them  and we were clueless. Until we found her on the Internet behind our backs in the night. Hello? Can this be Clare? Now the Internet is not connected on the other computers, so it is a non-issue. If she wants to talk with friends, she can call them or go to their houses. Part of the reason we allowed IM and chatting at all is because we live out in the country, at least an hour from any of her friends, and for someone as social as she is, this can be difficult. It's hard for her to be away from her peers 6 days a week, and only see them at church on Sundays. So, we let her online. But we weren't as vigilant as we thought, because she was minimizing windows when we walked in, and knew to delete sites from her History so when we went to see where she had been online, it all looked fine.
But God has ways of letting parents know. So we found out anyway.
Now we have to struggle to de-program her, and that is nearly impossible when the whole culture screams at these kids to be what she is trying to be.
I say "trying to be" because I still think that, inside, she is not this. She is fighting right now, but the frustrating thing is that she is not fighting too much out loud. She is acting like her old self and is very pleasant; but I know she must be  inside. So we're talking a lot to her and keeping her busy and getting her together with friends for constructive activities (our local Girls Challenge is hosting some all-day event this Wed, and a lot of her friends are going, so we'll let her go to that).
Keep talking, ladies. I'm getting smarter and calmer by the minute.
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Jen L.
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I don't have anyone going online at all yet, but my sister subscribes to "BSafe". It emails you a report each week to show what sites have been visited. Her son knows about it, and it helps to hold him accountable to someone besides himself.
(I think there are other provider's of this service, I just know of this one.)
The link is here
Just a thought...
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mumofsix
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Fwiw, I agree with the spiritual director and your Mum!
Superficially our children grow up so fast, but we forget how very young they are. Coping with the sometimes scary world of the internet alone may be what is driving her to want or feel the need of excessive control.  If you were to assume more control, perhaps she could relax: just an idea. I am putting a schedule together for our new school year, and my ds is very on board with it, surprisingly. He likes our lives to have lots of structure, which is difficult for me as I do not like this so much! It is a need he has though, and it suits our complex homeschooling needs at the moment.
You know, I have come to doubt how useful all those net nannying and cybersitting things are. Who has the time (or the inclination) to trawl through a teenager's online activity, especially if it is excessive? What if you have more than one teenager - or several? How much time are you willing to spend? And then, every time you check up on them it causes friction and difficulty and conflict and resentment - very difficult under those circumstances to re-build relationship.
I think it may be better to take the attitude towards the internet that you would take to real life friends: if they are totally reliable, then fine, if they are so-so, then they can meet with supervision only, if they are toxic, then forget it. So that would mean that young people can only have internet access without you sitting right there with them if they are very reliable themselves and interact only with good and decent friends. Anything less than this, and they need to be protected from the internet as from bad companions.
My own son became so computer adept that he learned how to disable a leading parental control programme anyway. The only useful thing we ever did was to get an administrated account, whereby my husband was the administrator, and everyone else could only access their accounts if they had the password for them. I had the password to mine, the children did not have the passwords for theirs, so they had to ask permission before using the internet (my daughter did this anyway, my son did not). Finally I got sufficiently exasperated to put a total ban on his use of the internet for a while: I just could not bear to waste any more time policing the wretched thing. It was a turning point. These days he really does not go online much at all. I am coming round to the view that having internet access on your own computer account, your own cell 'phone, etc. may be something more appropriate to adulthood than to the teenage years, at least for some.
It is really difficult, I know. Perhaps a six week ban to begin with might give you all a breathing space, especially if your daughter had plenty of opportunity to keep busy and see friends, etc.
I am praying. This will probably not get better overnight, and you may experience setbacks, but you will get there.
Jane.
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Cathmomof8
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[Jane said...You know, I have come to doubt how useful all those ing and cybersitting things are. Who has the time (or the inclination) to trawl through a teenager's online activity, especially if it is excessive? What if you have more than one teenager - or several? How much time are you willing to spend? And then, every time you check up on them it causes friction and difficulty and conflict and resentment - very difficult under those circumstances to re-build relationship]
(don't know how to quote from previous post so it gets in those nice little boxes)
Boy Jane, you have this pegged so right, I think. We've been using since Feb and I did unfortunately find out a lot of garbage that was going on - with vulgar language, with strangers and giving personal info, etc, BUT it has caused lots of friction and resentment. And it has built a big wall between my teens and myself. Not only that but I have spent COUNTLESS hours trying to get the program to work, worrying that it wasn't working, wondering about what I should and shouldn't really be reading of theirs, etc. I really couldn't believe the way my 15yo was talking online - couldn't believe it was really him! I learned more than I wanted to know! But I guess I had to. But with knowledge comes responsibility and so I'm struggling daily to know what to do - we've contact with certain people - but they are savvy enough if they want to be in contact with them, I've put loads of s on - but the program has to be working, I know they need some social contact time - but I don't have the time, energy or ability to be monitoring it all (even if they think right now that I read EVERYTHING - not necessarily good for our relationship either?). Life was sooo much simpler when they were younger!
This whole trust thing is so important. I've told my teens that if they can't trust us -that we love them and have THEIR best interest in mind - then it is impossible for us to trust them. I want to trust my teens, I really do. But their judgement has shown time and again to be faulty and they obviously just aren't that mature. Our 17yo that went to the public hs last year for the first time obviously had waaay too much freedom last year - even though we thought we knew where he was and what he was doing. sigh. And now that he has told me some things he did last year and that he isn't doing them anymore, and won't be, it is even harder to know what limits to set. He drives and has his own vehicle that his grandfather gave him. He works hard at his but as school starts again I'm so uneasy again about what this young man is going to do with his year. He told me he thinks he did these things last year to shed the 'good little homeschooling catholic boy' image. yikes. anyway, I'm rambling now when I should be getting kids up and ready for the day...
So glad to have found this forum. I've felt like I'm so alone in these struggles with teens. Through all the years of hsing, people have told me, "just wait until they're teens and it will all pay off. Your teen years will be easier because of hsing." This just hasn't seemed to be the case for US. I wonder so often where we went wrong, what we should have done differently, why aren't my teens those wonderful happy hsing teens, loving and serving their families. I do realize thatthey could be much much worse but I'm really not looking to compare with the lowest common denominator either.
still rambling,
Theresia
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: music and Internet
