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jdostalik
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Okay dear ladies...
My dd, a precocious reader at age 11, has just expressed interest in reading these books and is chomping at the bit to do so..no patience for mom to pre-read them at the moment...
Any comments or recommendations? The first book in the series is called The Ruby in the Smoke.
Thanks in advance for any comments you all may have!
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Jennifer in TX
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lapazfarm
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I read this book ages ago when my own daughter , now 16, was about that age. I remember I really enjoyed it and I did let dd read it. But other than that, I don't remember much about it. Plus, I do not censor books as strictly as some others here, so keep that in mind. We are big Phillip Pullman fans here.
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MacBeth
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Pullman is an atheist and it shows in his writings. I have read his rants against Lewis and Tolkien in Horn Book, and his bizarre and determined crusade against any faith in several other publications...there are many articles and interviews on the web (Google Pullman and Lewis), but take a quick look at an article in The New Yorker (hardly a bastion of Conservatism) from 2005. Sure, he's a talented writer, but his goal is to further the dechristianization of Britain via children's literature. This might make one pause. 
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MacBeth
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| Posted: June 26 2006 at 11:14am | IP Logged
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Just thought I'd add this quote from the aforementioned article:
Quote:
| he is one of England’s most outspoken atheists. In the trilogy [His Dark Materials], a young girl, Lyra Belacqua, becomes enmeshed in an epic struggle against a nefarious Church known as the Magisterium; another character, an ex-nun turned particle physicist named Mary Malone, describes Christianity as “a very powerful and convincing mistake.” Pullman once told an interviewer that “every single religion that has a monotheistic god ends up by persecuting other people and killing them because they don’t accept him.” |
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MacBeth
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| Posted: June 26 2006 at 11:23am | IP Logged
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Not to go on too much...  , but in light of last week's Episcopal summit, I thought this Pullman quote was interesting:
Quote:
| “Although I call myself an atheist, I am a Church of England atheist, and a 1662 Book of Common Prayer atheist, because that’s the tradition I was brought up in and I cannot escape those early influences.” |
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Hmmm.
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jdostalik
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MacBeth,
I just read the New Yorker article and all I can say is this man needs prayers...He is so talented, too, it is indeed a shame that he is such a vehement atheist. And his dark novels sound really scary and dangerous to the souls of those who read them, mostly children! 
Thanks for the link! I'm so sad that this is the case...time for a long chat with dd!  
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christinalinz
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Jumping in before an introduction (sorry)... I read the series (trilogy unless more have been added) as a children's librarian several years ago. Just as a big caveat: The main character does have a child out of wedlock in the second or third book of the series. I'm not sure I would be comfortable with my children reading this type of literature at age 11, or even later. There is just much better, more wholesome literature available.
Sorry for jumping in - I'll introduce myself soon... the baby is calling!
Christina
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lapazfarm
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Interesting about Pullman's religious beliefs (or disbeliefs???). And so sad, because he is so talented a writer. The Golden Compass, etc are amazing, fascinating books which we all loved. Too bad he is such a creep.
Like I have said before, I do not censor books in the same way as others on this board. I have my own criteria for censorship, but it may not be the same as others.
True, Golden Compass entails a battle against an evil church and other nasty characters, but to us it was so clearly fantasy (and good does win out over evil in the end) that I find it hard to believe it would shake anyone's faith. If that is Pullman's goal then he is a real failure, at least with me and my kids!
But if books like Harry Potter, etc are on your censor list, due to the criteria of use of magic, etc, then I would DEFINITELY steer clear of Pullman.
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Angela F
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Jennifer and all,
There's an interesting article from Mark Shea I came across recently...he has an interesting take on Pullman. He says, "...while Christians, including a dismaying number of Catholics, were squinting at Harry Potter, Pullman has been deliberately authoring a very well-written, highly imaginative series of stories with the express goal of blaspheming God and making an atheist of your kid."
Here's the rest of the article called, "We See Better When We Don't Squint."
More food for thought!
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Angela
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Oh, I guess the article refers to His Dark Trilogy(??), not Sally Lockhart, but it does give some more info on this author....
Angela
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lapazfarm wrote:
But if books like Harry Potter, etc are on your censor list, due to the criteria of use of magic, etc, then I would DEFINITELY steer clear of Pullman. |
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Theresa, one of my big pet peeves is all the attention given to HP when it is clear to me that Pullman is a way bigger problem. His books are soooo well-written, and if his fictional adversaries were different (wizards; or any other metaphor than the church ), I would not hesitate to recommend them for older kids.
Indeed, let's pray for him (we'll make room next to Mr. Newdow).
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lapazfarm
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You are right, MacBeth. DD(16) and I were just discussing this today. Harry Potter is nothing but harmless fluff compared to the Pullman books.
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Angela F wrote:
Here's the rest of the article called, "We See Better When We Don't Squint."
Angela |
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Thanks for posting this, Angela. Smart guy... 
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jdostalik wrote:
| I'm so sad that this is the case...time for a long chat with dd! |
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Jennifer, if she is looking for fantasy, you can take a look at my Fantasy page. It is by no means a complete list, but it might give you some ideas.
Let us know how the chat goes. I know this is hard, especially if all her friends are reading these books.
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christinalinz wrote:
Sorry for jumping in - I'll introduce myself soon... the baby is calling!
Christina |
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Welcome, Christina! Post an intro when you can...glad to have you here!
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Well, the chat didn't go well at all! My oldest is a bit of a challenge and too much of a smarty pants for her own good!! She pretty much felt like I was taking away her freedom by "censoring" a book she wanted to read! This is the same child that was a docile as a lamb when I told her we weren't going to allow her to read Harry Potter when she was 7...Isn't 11 too young to be having an adolescent attitude???!!
And MacBeth, we have printed out your Fantasy page a few times and it has really been helpful. DD reads constantly but I am sure there are some book still left on your list she hasn't read...
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jdostalik wrote:
Isn't 11 too young to be having an adolescent attitude???!!
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Unfortunately, no. I have a 4yo with the same attitude 
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Am I to understand that the writers of this forum actaully censor their childrens reading habits, beyond the point for pure graphic sexual detals and morbid scenes of death, you rule out Harry Potter books because of the context of magic? If magic does not exist then what is their to fear. This sort of attitude gives church goers a bad name - in general that of 'zealots'. It's your childs choice what they wish to read. Like wise it's your childs choice if they choice a religon and which one it shall be. Over all I am so very shockled at this forum. It appals me. Please explain why you feel it isw neccessary. I am very interested in the subject.
K.Frost
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alicegunther
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Serious wrote:
Am I to understand that the writers of this forum actaully censor their childrens reading habits, beyond the point for pure graphic sexual detals and morbid scenes of death, you rule out Harry Potter books because of the context of magic? If magic does not exist then what is their to fear. This sort of attitude gives church goers a bad name - in general that of 'zealots'. It's your childs choice what they wish to read. Like wise it's your childs choice if they choice a religon and which one it shall be. Over all I am so very shockled at this forum. It appals me. Please explain why you feel it isw neccessary. I am very interested in the subject.
K.Frost |
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I most definitely keep a close and loving eye on what my children read, in the same way I take care to provide them with nourishing food and keep them from playing in traffic or touching a hot stove. The world of literature is, for them, an untrodden territory, and I feel blessed and honored to be able to shepherd them through it.
K, a while back, my friend Lissa (a children's book author and all round wonderful mom) wrote an excellent post on this subject, and I think you might find it helpful in understanding why it is essential that parents take an active interest in what our children read during these unrepeatable formative years:
Lissa wrote:
I wanted to chime in with a view from the other side of the shelves, so to speak. While I'm a big proponent of the "let's read it and TALK about it" school of choosing children's books, my husband and I also feel a strong need to monitor our kids' reading choices and there are many kinds of books we don't allow at this point. (Our oldest is not quite 11 and reads well above her age level.) There is a vast deal of stuff on the library shelves that doesn't pass our screening criteria.
And one reason for that is the way things have changed in the world of children's book publishing over the past 15 years. When I was on staff in the editorial depts of Random House Children's and Harper Children's, there was a great deal of talk among the editors about how the tide was turning. Once upon a time, Editorial was the driving force in publishing. An editor would find a beautiful book in a mountain of submissions and say, "This deserves to be in print." It was the Sales & Marketing depts' job to sell the book.
Nowadays, it is more often Marketing who runs the show. The marketing exec will say "THIS is what kind of book we can sell--get us that." And then Editorial will have brainstorming meetings to come up with "that kind of book" (or series), and after certain details have been nailed down (often including plot and characters), a hunt will commence for a writer.
For example, this was the case with some Carmen Sandiego mysteries I wrote. I was asked to submit sample plotlines, but the characters had already been created by the in-house editorial staff.
(My Little House books are a different and fairly unique situation. Harper did come to me to ask me to write books about Laura's grandmother and great-grandmother, but once I accepted the offer, they turned over all the family archives to me and left it to me to develop plots, etc, on my own. I had much greater freedom and latitude than is typical for a series fostered in-house.) (There is more to this story, but I can't tell it now. Soon, though.)
Back to books created in-house. I'm afraid that most of what is produced (and I use that word deliberately, because I think you wind up with PRODUCT, not literature, in many cases) does not make the cut for my kids. Sturgeon's Law comes to mind. ("90% of everything is crap.")
I don't mind my kids reading a *little* junk, just as I don't mind them eating a little junk. But not much. And I fear much of what is out there is not just junk food, it's toxic.
The editors don't MEAN to fill the shelves with toxic or junky books, honestly they don't. They want to bring fun, engaging books to kids. They are working with limited power (because the marketing dept is by definition more interested in what will make money than in what will be quality literature), and also--this really does contribute to the disconnect--most children's book editors are not parents themselves. I am cringing as I write this and wondering if I should delete it; I have dear editor friends who would be hurt by this statement. But I know that *my* understanding changed radically once I had children of my own, and I've known this to be true for several others in the business.
One of the first picture books I worked on as an editorial assistant was a sweet story about a puppy dog. I thought it was a gem, with nearly perfect writing, a joy to read. Until, two years later, I found myself having to read it over and over and over to a toddler who did indeed adore the book. I discovered that what I had thought was perfect prose was actually a ponderous, excruciating read-aloud. See, none of us who worked on the book had ever read it aloud ten times in a row. You learn a lot about good writing by reading to a toddler's specifications (which is to say, reading a book a dozen times a day for a week).
Now, in that case, there was nothing objectionable about the content--this example speaks only to the merits of the writing. But there were other books that I worked on (pre-kids, pre-Charlotte Mason!!) that all of us involved genuinely thought were fun and entertaining. I thought Junie B. Jones was hilarious until I had a child, and then I couldn't stand the thought of having my kid imitate that fresh, bratty tone. I'm afraid Junie isn't invited to our house.
It can be hard to wade through the 90% of junk to find the gems that ARE definitely out there. All the harder since I think we all draw our lines in slightly different places. I know families who avoid Little House on the Prairie because of the overtly anti-Indian statements. And I understand their reasoning! Those passages require discussion between parent and child, as do parts of many, many other wonderful books. SECRET GARDEN comes to mind. Such discussions are beneficial; they help a child develop powers of discernment. (Alice's story about her daughter hesitating over the offending line in LS is an excellent example.)
I have to say that, knowing what I know about how books are made, I couldn't be comfortable turning my kids loose to roam the library the way I did as a child. I have this favorite quote by Dylan Thomas—"My education was the liberty I had to read indiscriminately and al the time, with my eyes hanging out."—and yet I know it's a bit inconsistent of me to proclaim that, since I *don't* allow my children to read indiscriminately. Until their eyes are hanging out, yes!
Having said all that—I don't want anyone to give up on post-1960 books! Heavens no!! As others have pointed out, there's a lot that was written pre-1960 that contains objectionable or questionable material as well. And even in the last marketing-driven decade, tenacious editors are managing to bring excellent books to print. Books by Kate DiCamillo, Gail Carson Levine, Louis Sachar (HOLES), Jeanne Birdsall, & Patricia MacLachlan, Paul* Fleischman (BY THE GREAT HORN SPOON) come to mind. I look first for books wholly created by the author (similar to the CMish practice of avoiding committee-written textbooks and looking for living history & science, etc, books instead) rather than "product" that got its start in a marketing meeting. I read lots and lots of reviews, and in many cases even a good review will suggest to me that this isn't a book I want to turn my child loose with at this time—since my criteria don't always match the reviewer's. Sometimes what a book is praised for is as illuminating as what it is criticized for.
In the end, I find I have to rely on my own (& my husband's) judgment. As our children get older, we are more comfortable giving them access to books with content we know we'll need to talk about. Those discussions can be the best part of our day. |
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Still doesn't exactly answer the question. It's fine to say no children please stay away from the porn and Stephen King horrors. But good old fashion fantasy. Where is the harm and the center of most stories are moral guidlines and grains of wisdom and knowledge. When do you expect to allow your children to have free reign. I know of many 11 year old children I have discussed this matter with and they just stop telling their parents about the books they get from they library etc. I know that this is a wide home school community but I still feel that the principals are the same. Children will not read gorry porn. They become embarrassed. Generally they progress when they know they are ready. Adults/Parents can rarely judge the mental development of children.
I know that in Britain sex education starts at a young age 11 to be precise, and even 10. They are well aware of such thing.
Out of interests sake when do you believe that your children are old enough to read what they wish...12,16,18....21! You can't keep them under that wing for long. They resent the parents.....
On another not I forgot to mention the Sally Lockhart books are astounding. In this day and age if we can't accept that there is nothing wrong with having a child out of wedlock then you really shouldn't be in the 21st century.
K. Frost
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4Real Forums : Living Literature
Topic: Philip Pullman/Sally Lockhart books
