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folklaur
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| Posted: June 05 2006 at 5:08pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth --
We were posting at the same time -- I should have just waited, as you said it so much better than my bumbling attempt.....
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MacBeth
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| Posted: June 05 2006 at 5:13pm | IP Logged
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cactus mouse wrote:
MacBeth --
We were posting at the same time -- I should have just waited, as you said it so much better than my bumbling attempt.....
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Not at all, Laura. There are many great ways to say the same thing. I love anthropology, BTW! 
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MacBeth in NY
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Taffy
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| Posted: June 05 2006 at 5:23pm | IP Logged
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Rebecca wrote:
Taffy wrote:
| So, abcmommy, I do understand what you're saying about how we can't be held responsible for others becoming tempted because of what we're wearing or how we are acting. |
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I have always understood the direct opposite to be true. We CAN and will be held responsible for others becoming tempted because of what we're wearing or how we are acting. |
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I just thought I should clarify this. I do agree and understand that we will be held accountable for when we lead others to sin. We are told this many times throughout scripture and in the Church's teachings and it makes sense to me logically.
What I meant to say is that, no matter how we act or dress, there may be someone who is tempted by us. I've worked with men who'd be tempted by a woman wearing a parka.  There are people who struggle mightily with temptations over things that the average person might find pretty innocent.
We are all responsible for our own behaviour and I totally agree that knowingly causing temptation by our behaviour or clothing is a sin in itself.
Just trying to be clear 
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Susan
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Taffy
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| Posted: June 05 2006 at 5:26pm | IP Logged
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cactus mouse wrote:
| And, my boy rarely if ever goes around shirt-less either. Neither does my dh. And it would make my dd 16 feel weird if he did, as she has never been exposed to that. We are ALL modest in our dress, boys & girls. If she saw her father or brother n*de all the time, why wouldn't it be just as fine for her to see her friends who are boys that way? What a confusing message for a child! |
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Well said! 
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Susan
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abcmommy
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| Posted: June 05 2006 at 5:58pm | IP Logged
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I think some of you need to step back and see that old southern saying in its proper context, which is with a sense of humour.
I am so very sorry that many of you are so hung up on nudity and sexuality.
Its certainly new to me that anyone could possibly get so worked up about the concept of families who aren't horrified at the sight of the human body. Interestingly at no point in any of my posts did I allude to walking around naked. but apparently you decided this is what I do? My my, perhaps you need to work on more modest thinking bc your imagination is running away with you. Nudity isnt an issue. That doesnt mean we stroll around without clothing on all the time. It merely means we dont lose our cookies if we happen upon one another stepping out of the shower.
rest assured I find your views every bit as offensive and repugnant as you find mine. Fu8rther more, if God wanted us to wander around ashamed of our bodies all the time I think he'd have stuck on more hair. How's that for offensive?
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Helen
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I very much admire St. John Bosco. He was so successful with thousands of boys which the world gave up on. St. John Bosco taught that modesty is a fragile virtue. He was extremely careful in teaching purity to his boys. I think it is one of the reasons of his great success.
St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa (Second part of the second part -  I always laugh when I say that!) Gives an indepth teaching on modesty.
Modesty in Words and Deeds and In Outward Attire
Here is the link with all the virtues
I keep this site bookmarked. It always helps me.
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lapazfarm
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Wow! What a crazy hot topic this is! Sorry I came into it so late!
First off, I absolutely feel that being naked is only appropriate behind closed doors with one's husband or in the shower. Being in any stage of undress in front of anyone else, children included is inappropriate (with certain exceptions for medical procedures).
In addition, today's accepted fashions are disgusting when it comes to exposed bellies, underwear, cleavage, etc. There is simply no excuse for parading around as a walking advetisement for s*x. It is degrading not only to those wearing the clothes, but also to those who must be exposed to it. I am not talking about bare arms and legs. We wear sleeveless T's and modest shorts or capris here and this is not a s*xy look. It is practical for the realities of hot southern summers.
Even beachwear and poolwear can be comfortable and functional without being sexual. We can all recognize those who are wearing sporty swimwear for the purpose of being active in the water, and those who are there to be seen. Anyone with any sense can see the distinction. My daughter actually prefers wearing boy's board shorts and surfer's rash shirts in the water.
We wear skirts or dresses to church, but rarely elsewhere. My family is largely into jeans and T shirts, modestly fit.
So now you know where I am coming from.
But here is my question:
This is coming from a genuine sense of curiosity, but could someone please explain why wearing pants would be considered immodest? I don't mean tight pants, but loosely fitted jeans or khakis? To me, I feel more attractive in a dress and less so in pants, so I am wondering why pants would be immodest? Or is this issue less about modesty and more about femininity, which in my mind are two different concepts? I know this is a topic open to interpretation, so I am just trying to understand this opinion.
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folklaur
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abcmommy wrote:
| I doubt my standards will change that much. I dont think its age, I think its liberalism. I am pretty liberal. in house, we are often nude and comfortable with it. |
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I think this may be why I thought what I did? Compiled with others things you have said, maybe? And maybe the way you say them?
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Elizabeth
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abcmommy--You have been given every opportunity to clearly express your opinions. Those opinions have been offensive to many people here.Your last post deliberately tries to offend. That is not our purpose here and it never will be. People have graciously posted link after link and quote after quote of official Church teaching and the wisdom of saints. I'm sorry that you have found such apologetics offensive. If one looks at truth with an open heart and a sincere desire to seek the will of God, it cannot be offensive. You said that you came to these forums to learn. You have been offered that education. I really think that there is nothing further to add to this conversation.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Taffy
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lapazfarm wrote:
But here is my question:
This is coming from a genuine sense of curiosity, but could someone please explain why wearing pants would be considered immodest? I don't mean tight pants, but loosely fitted jeans or khakis? To me, I feel more attractive in a dress and less so in pants, so I am wondering why pants would be immodest? Or is this issue less about modesty and more about femininity, which in my mind are two different concepts? |
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I'd like to know this too. I always feel way more self-conscious and uncomfortable with the attention in a dress too.
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Susan
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ladybugs
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abcmommy wrote:
in house, we are often nude and comfortable with it.
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How can you blame us for letting our imaginations run away when you clearly state the above?
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ladybugs
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Elizabeth wrote:
| abcmommy--You have been given every opportunity to clearly express your opinions. Those opinions have been offensive to many people here.Your last post deliberately tries to offend. That is not our purpose here and it never will be. People have graciously posted link after link and quote after quote of official Church teaching and the wisdom of saints. I'm sorry that you have found such apologetics offensive. If one looks at truth with an open heart and a sincere desire to seek the will of God, it cannot be offensive. You said that you came to these forums to learn. You have been offered that education. I really think that there is nothing further to add to this conversation. |
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Sorry, Elizabeth,
I would not have posted the above had I realized what you posted...
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: June 05 2006 at 6:28pm | IP Logged
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abcmommy,
Most of the people on this board are conservative. You must have realized that by now. Why in the world would you be surprised that your views are not going over well here?
I also think your tone is offensive. Insulting the members of this board, whether you agree with them or not is just plain ugly. I personally wish you would stop.
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MacBeth
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| Posted: June 05 2006 at 6:29pm | IP Logged
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abcmommy wrote:
| I am so very sorry that many of you are so hung up on nudity and sexuality. |
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I assure you, I am not "hung up."
abcmommy wrote:
| Its certainly new to me that anyone could possibly get so worked up about the concept of families who aren't horrified at the sight of the human body. |
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Can't say I'm horrified, either...I don't think anyone is. Perhaps the big issue here is that you assume you understand something that you clearly do not, and that is Catholic teaching on human sexuality. Please take the time to follow some of the links provided by some very wise and generous women who have taken the time to post.
abcmommy wrote:
| rest assured I find your views every bit as offensive and repugnant as you find mine. |
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I am sorry you find many views on modesty repugnant and offensive...personally, I like to learn and understand other cultures. When you visit here, you are visiting Catholic culture. Just as I would not show up for a tour of a synagogue with a ham sandwich and offer it to the Rabbi, I would not come into a Catholic forum and expect members to feel comfortable hearing about immodest behavior.
I can understand the difference of opinion you have, but please try to be sensitive to the sentiments of the group. If you are here to learn, you are very welcome. If you come here to challenge, you are also welcome...but know that you will be asked to defend your position with Catholic doctrine, not mud-slinging and name-calling. Entering a room that you assume is conservative (it is not uniformly so), declaring you are liberal and making sweeping statements about how we are all "hung up" is not conducive to Real Learning.
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MacBeth in NY
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MacBeth
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| Posted: June 05 2006 at 8:04pm | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
We wear skirts or dresses to church, but rarely elsewhere. My family is largely into jeans and T shirts, modestly fit.
So now you know where I am coming from.
But here is my question:
This is coming from a genuine sense of curiosity, but could someone please explain why wearing pants would be considered immodest? I don't mean tight pants, but loosely fitted jeans or khakis? To me, I feel more attractive in a dress and less so in pants, so I am wondering why pants would be immodest? Or is this issue less about modesty and more about femininity, which in my mind are two different concepts? I know this is a topic open to interpretation, so I am just trying to understand this opinion. |
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Good question, and I am hoping that the folks reading can take this thread back on topic with Theresa's query.
Personally, I have been a pants-wearer all my life (since 5th grade), but I'm beginning to change. I like my girls to wear dresses--they look lovely--unless they are going on the subway or on a hike in the woods or the high marsh. I have visions of their long flow skirts getting caught in the closing doors or the subway....  , and the hikers might bring home ticks. As a naturalist, I have been in "uniform" pants for years now.
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MacBeth in NY
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folklaur
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MacBeth wrote:
| I have visions of their long flow skirts getting caught in the closing doors or the subway.... , and the hikers might bring home ticks. |
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ya know, I have lived in the desert southwest for 16 years now, and we really don't have problems with things like ticks. Or very many other bugs for that matter. But I grew up in New Jersey, and have been pestering my dh that I would really, really like to move back to the northeast....but I forgot about the ticks.....
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JSchaaf
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I'm wondering about the jeans/pants thing, too. I gave up wearing jeans/pants for a few months over a year ago after reading Immodesty: Satan's Virtue. But, I have a rather large bum and bust and I felt dresses only called attention to them. I feel more modest in loose fitting jeans and a loose top.
Jennifer
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Dawn
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I wear pants mostly, but would love to start wearing more dresses and skirts. One thing I will say, when I wear pants, even though they are not form fitting, I can't help but feel they show more of me than a dress would, if you KWIM. If I am wearing pants to church I always wear something that covers my hips.
With skirts my concern has been ease of movement and time spent outdoors or on the floor.
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Patrick
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This has been a very interesting thread for me and I thought I'd give my 2 cents because this is what I study in school and... I'm a guy.
Clothing:
John Paul II wrote extensively and, I feel, clearly on this subject. He points out that as far as bathing suits go we must try to be both modest and practical. Our bathing suits should allow us to do what we went to the pool to do. Shorts could get in the way when trying to really get swimming (however, as a guy who is not going to wear a speedo, this has never held me back). I don't think bikinis could actually help with swimming considering that they use a one piece in the Olympics. The point about a child in diapers is a good one though.
A point that I would like to make is that bikinis were invented for the sole purpose of arousing lust in men. This was admitted by the people who invented it and was the reason for its popularity.
As for the argument that sports bras are unattractive? I have to admit that at one point in time it was probably my favorite article of clothing to see women wear. I now find them unattractive, but that's just because my taste in women has changed dramatically.
Nudity in Art:
Why is it that John Paul II ordered the clothing to be taken off of the figures in Sistine Chapel, but mandated that women must cover their shoulders just to get in to see it? In his Theology of the Body he says that it is because art captures the human body in a special way that allows us to fully comprehend the person, but just a mechanical copy of an image deprives the person of her dignity because we see her as flesh and nothing more.
The Point:
This point of all of this is that we should always understand that the person is a person and not merely an object. We have an interiority and an inherent dignity which demands that we must be treated with respect whether we have a body that others would want to see or not. We must be "educated in shame" and we must work to educate our children in shame. This is not to give a negative interpretation of the body, but to protect our dignity from use by others.
Our culture emphases modesty for women more than men for a good reason. That reason being that men are driven more by sensuality. It is improper for women to show themselves in a way that is contrary to the relationship that they have with the person viewing them, which is most often outside or marriage.
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guitarnan
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I like my jeans...especially when I mow the lawn (we have deer ticks in MD; my daughter found this out the hard way ). I really, really dislike wearing shorts. The first time we moved to Italy (extreme south) I was told by a neighbor that the locals considered women who wore shorts to be, well, disreputable. That was the end of that. I've never felt comfortable in shorts since! (Please note that I'm the one who wrote about differences in summer fashions between Italy and here...that does not involve shorts!)
So, since 1986 I have been the queen of broomstick skirts and capris in the summer months. I'm far happier. I can pair my skirts with t-shirts and/or long-sleeved tops. My legs are covered below my knees.
The only problem is that, in Italy, only gypsies (the pickpocketing kind included) wear printed broomstick skirts, so I get weird looks there!!! (Just goes to show you, there's never a perfect solution...)
When I was in college, I took a class on the Japanese tea ceremony. I found that my voluminous broomstick skirts were perfect for attending the ceremonies because I could wiggle a bit. Otherwise, after an hour sitting on my lower legs, I couldn't get up safely!
I have lived enough places to realize that the definition of "acceptable" varies widely (wildly?!), but in the end, I would really hate to live anywhere and be marked out as an immodest dresser. If we were sent to live in the Middle East, I would just have to get used to their dress code, or I would have to leave. I wouldn't want anyone to think that American women were inconsiderate or immodest. We already have a media image to live down.
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Dressing Modestly
