| Author | |
Jenn Sal
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 897
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 2:29pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Everyone,
I am the one who sparked this discussion.  I never realized what a hot topic this is. As I've been reading everyone's posts, I've been discussing things with my husband. He, like I, never took much thought of it until now. I really haven't had much to say here, because I am processing a lot of information. But, I wanted you all to know that I do appreciate your thoughts and information. You've got my family discussing something wonderful! 
My daughter is 4 1/2, bright and beautiful. She loves God, knows that she is special and unique. Here is what she said when I asked her to explain modesty: "Something that is very important that you should practice and do all the time. Making sure what you are wearing covers your private parts because that way people aren't looking at your private parts. They should be looking just at how you look and how you are acting and how you are just doing things the right way. And doing something nice for someone but not telling them it was you. It's okay if you tell them, but it would be nicer not to tell them because it's just the right thing, it's nice and good."  (she picked out this emoticons because it looked happy)
I think she is getting it! She see's the responsibility she has with her apperance and in her actions. She knows that she needs to do things for God's approval. I feel comfortable that we are off to a good start! 
Thank you, again for everything!
__________________
Jennifer, Texas
Wife to Mark, Mom to Cora 13,Kade 10, Sarah in Heaven 12/05, Colette 7, Corin 5, & Kieran 2
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Christine
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 2:32pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Many of the young men, with whom I went to school, avoided certain places on campus due to the bikini and sports bra clad females. It made them very uncomfortable and they found it difficult to avert their eyes. One young man even wrote about it in our student newspaper.
In my mind wearing bikinis in public (I am sorry to say that I did wear them at one stage) is akin to wearing a bra and underwear in public. I switched swimming pools due to the number of girls who took swim lessons in bikinis.
Parts of this conversation remind me of the frog in the water. The water keeps getting hotter, but the frog doesn't jump out. I believe our society is becoming so used to some of the styles that they don't even recognize anything wrong with them.
I am not saying this to be antagonistic, but rather to share because some of my views have changed over the years. Today, they are more in line with my mom's standards and closer to true Marian modesty.
I appreciate everyone taking the time to share because it makes for a fruitful conversation that provides for plenty of food for thought. It also helps me to discern how to address these issues with my daughters (who like wearing dresses).
__________________
Christine
Mommy to 4 girls, 5 boys, & 2 in God's care
Memories of a Catholic Wife and Mother
Pretty Lilla Rose
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
cathhomeschool
Board Moderator
Texas Bluebonnets
Joined: Jan 26 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7303
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 2:33pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
abcmommy wrote:
| I think that is weird- to be so distracted by human flesh?? |
|
|
It isn't weird at all to be distracted by human flesh -- it's human. The Catechism states, "(2516) Because man is a composite being, spirit and body, there already exists a certain tension in him; a certain struggle of tendencies between "spirit" and "flesh" develops. But in fact this struggle belongs to the heritage of sin. It is a consequence of sin and at the same time a confirmation of it. It is part of the daily experience of the spiritual battle."
abcmommy wrote:
| But i think you add to the issue unnecessarily when you sexualise what isnt sexual (ie a sports bra- possibly the least attractive garment on earth- or the bare arms of a 7yo.) |
|
|
A bra -- sports or otherwise -- is an undergarment and is designed to cover the most private -- and sexual -- parts of our bodies. Whether the bra is lacy and frilly or not, it's still a bra.
The catechism continues: "(2518) The sixth beatitude proclaims, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."[306] "Pure in heart" refers to those who have attuned their intellects and wills to the demands of God's holiness, chiefly in three areas: charity;[307] chastity or sexual rectitude;[308] love of truth and orthodoxy of faith.[309] There is a connection between purity of heart, of body, and of faith."
"(2521) Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity."
"2522 ...Modesty is decency. It inspires one's choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet."
"(2524) ...Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person."
__________________
Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Sarah
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 17 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1624
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 2:57pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
We will have to answer to God if we are part of another person's sin.
If you are dressed with lots of flesh showing, and another person uses your uncovered body as an occasion for sin, even if only entertaining thoughts, YOU are part of this sinful situation and it IS on YOUR soul. We are social beings. Our actions have implications on others. We cannot walk around pleasing our every whim without thought of others. You can't separate it and just say its their own problem, not mine, if they cannot keep their thoughts off impurity. Its the same in many situations--the doctor referring for abortion or contraceptives is part of it, the adult handing out BC to teenagers is part of it, etc. You cannot be a party to sin without it affecting your own soul.
Thus it cannot be that girls can wear sports bras at a soccer game more than they can anywhere else. A soccer game doesn't take place in a bubble, it IS a PUBLIC event where men are present. Ask any man and they will tell you that it is very hard to override the passion that arises at a stimulating image. Which is why many psychiatrists will tell you to avoid looking at an impure image for longer than 3 seconds because it instantly triggers hormones that cause a "thrill" and thus can become addictive. Which is why it happens that perfectly decent men can become addicted to internet imagery and feel so much shame.
Men are wired to be more sexual in thought than women. God made them that way. It is our womanly obligation to help keep these passions in check, not to tempt them to have their primitive inclinations to take over. Its what separates us from the animals--the fact that we have to keep our instincts in check.
A "belly" is imtimately linked to reproduction, both the act leading to, and the growth of future people and thus should be covered. Women's bodies, by nature, have more covering needed than a man's. Men can go shirtless in situations where women cannot. We are not men. You can't compare apples and oranges. A woman's body is made to hold life within its womb, and you could possibly argue that more respect should be given to a woman's body as a vessel holding a being made in the image and likeness of God. The only person ever made without original sin was a woman, not a man.
Anyway, my 2 cents. . . Good discussion!
__________________
Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 2:57pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
This is quite a thread. Modesty is one of those subjects that is hard to look at objectively...so much subjective feeling and personal choices and baggage come through this discussion. But a few points:
abcmommy wrote:
| To me, modesty isnt just about coverage. |
|
|
You are correct. Perhaps we need to look at the definition of modesty and not just how different people interpret it.
From Father Hardon's [Modern Catholic Dictionary: The virtue that moderates all the internal and external movements and appearance of a person according to his or her endowments, possessions, and station in life. Four virtues are commonly included under modesty: humility, studiousness, and two kinds of external modesty, namely in dress and general behavior.
Humility is the ground of modesty in that it curbs the inordinate desire for personal excellence and includes one to recognize his or her own worth in its true light. Studiousness moderates the desire and pursuit of truth in accordance with faith and right reason. Its contrary vices are curiosity, which is an excessive desire for knowledge, and negligence, which is remissness in acquiring the knowledge that should be had for one's age and position in life.
Modesty in dress and bodily adornments inclines a person to avoid not only whatever is offensive to others but whatever is not necessary. Modesty in bodily behavior directs a person to observe proper decorum in bodily movements, according to the dictum of St. Augustine, "In all your movements let nothing be evident that would offend the eyes of another."
teachingmom wrote:
| For the most part, my girls are fine with our clothing rules, which I think are sort of middle-of-the-road for Catholics. One-piece swim suits, tops long enough so tummy doesn't show as they move (this gets trickier as they grow fast--sometimes buying things that are long enough means buying things that are huge in the shoulders for a tall, thin child), dresses and skirts to the knee or (in a few cases) slightly above, shorts don't have to come to the knees but at least to the fingertips of arms extended downwards (I'm so glad that capris and bermuda shorts are in style now!), no tank tops or thin spaghetti strap but normal sleeveless tops with 2 or 3 inch-width across the shoulders or flutter sleeves OK. I keep to these guidelines from the beginning, since I really believe it's hard to tell a girl at age 8 or 9 that suddenly something that she's been wearing all along is inappropriate. |
|
|
My guidelines are similar to Irene's, although I haven't put them in practice for my own children, since I don't have a girl yet.
abcmommy wrote:
For example, my 8 yo neighbor dd has been doing flips with her shirt flying up all her life but in the next yr I expect this will change as she will begin to feel the need to change her behavior and possibly need a sportsbra or cami. No one has to explain this to her. its begun already.
My 1 yo has the freedom of nudity in the yard. My 9 yo wouldnt be caught dead. I think these changes occur naturally and children understand thm much better than some give them credit for. |
|
|
I lost my response from this morning that is similar to Elizabeth and MicheleW. It's not 1950 anymore. We know there are s*x predators and molesters and p*orn. I would not say to act in fear, but you don't want your child to be hurt or the one to arouse a predator. Meditating more on the differences of man and woman, how they respond to external stimuli, how different the s*x appeal works for a man and woman would make one understand modesty is not just about wearing clothes. And there is a great responsibility on the woman.
abcmommy wrote:
I doubt my standards will change that much. I dont think its age, I think its liberalism. I am pretty liberal. in house....[edited for content]
I am pretty sure I'd wear a bikini today if my belly were more attractive. I am only 30. My boys are not so far bothered by bikini clad girls, at age 9 and 6. Their father isnt either and while he may appreciate some lady's fine physique at the pool I am pretty certain he doesnt see her as a near occassion of sin. I think that is weird- to be so distracted by human flesh?? |
|
|
Abcmommy, I found that was too much personal information about what you wear (or not wear around the house). I'm very visual and I don't find that an attractive picture. I don't have teenagers, but I would not want my teenage boy to come across that post....as they tend to be visual also, but in a different area. Would you mind editing it a bit, please?
"If my belly were more attractive." -- why wait until attractive? If it's not about s*x appeal, what makes a flat belly attractive and a fat one not? It's clearly s*xual attraction, whether you think it is or not.
There's a term "custody of the eyes" and yes, it is very distracting for men who are trying to maintain pure thoughts to be bombarded by women's physiques in little to tiny clothing. The beach and pool are very hard.
abcmommy wrote:
| But i think you add to the issue unnecessarily when you sexualise what isnt sexual (ie a sports bra- possibly the least attractive garment on earth.) |
|
|
The garment is not sexual, it's the part of the body that is supposed to be held in by that article of clothing that IS sexual in nature. And sometimes that part of the body isn't completely held in, either. And the clothing is completely skin tight, leaving little to the imagination.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 3:37pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I think of immodest clothing and responsibility rather like this:
A bikini may not be pornographic, but it is advertising. Just as some websites may not be pornographic, I would not want my son/dh/anyone in my family visiting sites that advertise porn.
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MichelleM
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 12 2006
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 113
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 3:40pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
MichelleM wrote:
The statistics on Internet P*rn, especially in regards to child p*rn, are alarming. I will try to post a link later when I have more time.
|
|
|
For more reading: Focus on the FamilyF\
__________________
~Michelle
Mommy to 5 Blessings
Visit my blog: House of Grace
Our nature blog: All of Creation
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Taffy
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 05 2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1567
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 3:54pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
There's a lot of food for thought in this discussion and, while I have no intention of getting involved in an argument...
I've spent a lot of time in my "former life" (before children) working in jobs that are typically dominated by men. (Mostly at a sawmill although I've worked in car shops as well). Frankly, it doesn't seem to matter what one wears, the comments will come and there is generally some ill-behaved person who likes to act badly and not have control of their impulses. The reverse has been true when I've been in environments that are typically dominated by women.
So, abcmommy, I do understand what you're saying about how we can't be held responsible for others becoming tempted because of what we're wearing or how we are acting. Just because a person is dressed immodestly does not mean you can be rude or sinful towards them.
However, as practicing christians trying to teach our children to live in a manner that is pleasing to God, we must remember that we are called to not be the cause of others to fall into temptation. Modesty is about more than how long your sleeves and pant legs are or whether you show your navel. Comments on T-shirts or sweatshirts can make whatever you're wearing seem immodest as can artwork.
By dressing in a modest fashion, we are saying that we respect the gift of sexuality that's been given to us enough that is not for public consumption. So I will not dress or allow my children to dress in a way where others can get sexual gratification from me or my children. And personal responsibility shouldn't be negated when teaching our children about modesty.
I hope this makes sense. I often wish I were better with words. 
__________________
Susan
Mom to 5 on earth and 1 in heaven
Susan's Soliloquy
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mary Chris
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2175
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 3:56pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
abcmommy,
I wish I knew your name....After reading your post all I can think is TOO MUCH INFORMATION!!!!! Please remember that this is a public forum.
__________________
Blessings, Mary Chris Beardsley
mom to MacKenzie3/95, Carter 12/97 Ronan 3/00 and wife to Jim since 1/92
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Cay Gibson
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 16 2005
Location: Louisiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5193
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:08pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm going to avoid the bathsuit issue right now.  I have a shapely 16 yr old daughter in my household, it is summertime and she wants to swim. Did you know it is almost near impossible to find a decent swimsuit (that is not a 2-piece) for a girl this age?
I also have an 8 yr old daughter who idolizes her older sister, and then a 4 yr old who's as sassy as sassy gets. 
Summertime, swimsuits, and 4 females. What a combination! 
I'm lucky the 16 yr old is practical, rooted in her faith, and has a good head on her shoulders. She thinks it's tacky for girls to run around in sport bras, etc. So do my boys. Still...we are in the thick of the swimsuit discussion, yet not without like-minded friends. We were at a swimming party last Friday and this very topic was discussed.
Moving on...regarding modesty...I'm afraid I don't have any intelligent, thought-provoking comments but I do have a book recommendation which I think Jenn or Bridget (or someone) posted on a while back, and one I'm sure you've all heard of.
Dressing with Dignity by Colleen Hammond.
I admit to avoiding this book becase of the controversy over its publication, etc. I was determined not to spend money on it. Then this spring the girls and I went to a Carmelite Monastery. While browing the gift shop for scapulars, books, rosaries, etc. I found one final copy of this book sitting on the shelf. As I picked it up to thumb through, one of my friends standing nearby leaned over to say, "Very good book. I read it last year. It's excellent."
Marked down to $5.00, I went ahead and purchased it. I read a little here and there at nighttime. It's worded easily for teenagers and I have found it full of excellent, thought provoking material. Frankly, it's the best I've ever read on the subject. I'm anxious for my oldest daughter to read it. I know there's a controversy with the book but it is really an excellent resource.
Here's some of the other modesty discussions we've had here in the past.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
abcmommy
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 09 2006
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 129
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:09pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
You find it tmi to know that my 4 times pg belly is flabby? Or that I would enjoy wearing a bikini? or that my family doesnt freak out about nudity? You are unable to keep from picturing this in your mind? I am so sorry, but I find that awfully strange.
As for breasts being innately sexual, I am afraid I disagree. My breasts see more daylight than my knees, I'd guess. I have been lactating for 9 yrs now.
Here's a question for you all who are very conservative on this issue. Do you understand the difference between nudity and eroticism? Have you ever studied art history? Do you have art books or pieces in your homes? Do you study other societies at all? What do you tell your kids about nudity in art or in other societies?
Let me boil it down in old fashioned southern language. Nude is when you have no clothes on. Nekid is when you have no clothing on and are up to no good. There is a legitimate difference there. One is pleasing to God. The other has its time and place.
And someone here used a term "right shame" which is to me, the epitome of oxymoronic. Shame is shame and I dont think shame in one's body has any benefits. Being a lady doesnt include shame and I don't believe shame is ever a component of dignity.
As for near occassion of sin, there are all sorts of issues out there with regard to this. You have to draw the line where you feel most comfortable for your family. We certainly will not be wearing burkas here just bc there are some people with issues and that would be what it would take to completely avoid being an occassion of sin for every person. I know some societies feel this is the best way to approach the issues. I just don't want to be a part of such a society. It didnt go too well for the Taliban.
And as for p\d*philia, the only person responsible for that issue is the p*d&phile. I find it offensive as all get out that anyone would imply otherwise. I see we are mere steps away from the scantily clad girl deserving to be r@ped argument... I had it with my 90 yo grandma once. I would like to have thought our society could have moved beyond her archaic thinking.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
StephanieA
Forum Pro
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 394
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:21pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
issue right now. I have a shapely 16 yr old daughter in my household, it is summertime and she wants to swim. Did you know it is almost near impossible to find a decent swimsuit (that is not a 2-piece) for a girl this age?
Cay, try this: Go to a middle scale department store, straight to the women's section. If you hurry, they will still have the smaller sizes. Find the prettiest, flowery, modest suit, especially up-top. K-mart and Wal-mart have terribly ugly suits :( Then go to any store and find some sleek/poly shorts (usually sport shorts like Nike) in a color to match the pretty suit. Walla! She can wear the shorts in the pool if she wishes or remove them if she feels comfortable without exposes more than she wishes. After my disaster with the long skirted swimsuit with my dh, I did this. The suit was black, purple, and yellow. Very classy looking and the shorts were black. I feel totally comfortable, but modest. I can remove the shorts if I wish. But usually they stay on well enough, even to do laps in. Good luck!
Blessings,
Stephanie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Rebecca
Forum All-Star
Joined: Dec 30 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1898
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:23pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Taffy wrote:
| So, abcmommy, I do understand what you're saying about how we can't be held responsible for others becoming tempted because of what we're wearing or how we are acting. |
|
|
I have always understood the direct opposite to be true. We CAN and will be held responsible for others becoming tempted because of what we're wearing or how we are acting.
Taffy wrote:
| By dressing in a modest fashion, we are saying that we respect the gift of sexuality that's been given to us enough that is not for public consumption. So I will not dress or allow my children to dress in a way where others can get sexual gratification from me or my children. |
|
|
This is well said, Taffy.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
cathhomeschool
Board Moderator
Texas Bluebonnets
Joined: Jan 26 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7303
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:38pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
abcmommy wrote:
| You find it tmi to know that my 4 times pg belly is flabby? Or that I would enjoy wearing a bikini? or that my family doesnt freak out about nudity? You are unable to keep from picturing this in your mind? I am so sorry, but I find that awfully strange. |
|
|
I find it way tmi to know that you go about your house with nothing on. And I find it downright immodest too.
abcmommy wrote:
| Here's a question for you all who are very conservative on this issue. Do you understand the difference between nudity and eroticism? Have you ever studied art history? Do you have art books or pieces in your homes? Do you study other societies at all? What do you tell your kids about nudity in art or in other societies? |
|
|
Yes, I understand the differences. And we are not talking about Michelangelo here or an article in National Geographic, we're talking about 21st century America. There are standards and norms in different cultures and different time periods. To say that it's okay to go around nude now because people posed that way in the Renaissance period or do so today in some other culture is being naive. Like it or not, we live IN this world and IN this culture and are bound to certain cultural norms. To suggest that we are above what our society considers indecent because that's what we feel comfortable with is irresponsible.
abcmommy wrote:
| Let me boil it down in old fashioned southern language. Nude is when you have no clothes on. Nekid is when you have no clothing on and are up to no good. There is a legitimate difference there. One is pleasing to God. The other has its time and place. |
|
|
Which is pleasing to God and which has its time and place? If being "nekid" means you're up to no good, then it should never have "its time and place." "Nude" would be pleasing to God in its proper time and place -- in privacy before your husband.
__________________
Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Cay Gibson
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 16 2005
Location: Louisiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5193
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:40pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
StephanieA wrote:
Then go to any store and find some sleek/poly shorts (usually sport shorts like Nike) in a color to match the pretty suit. Walla! |
|
|
Thank you, Stephanie.
Luckily, my dd does wear shorts with her swimsuits. She's got enough modesty bred into her that she can't stand parading around skimpily clad. 
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
StephanieA
Forum Pro
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 394
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
[QUOTE=Christine] Many of the young men, with whom I went to school, avoided certain places on campus due to the bikini and sports bra clad females.
Yeah, it gets pretty bad when your teenaged boys feel the need to avoid church because of the outfits though Last summer, my oldest left our pew because the girl to the front and side of him was literally falling out of her short cropped top and her end showed when she sat down because her skirt was so short. I won't get too graphic here, but I noticed it and hoped none of my 3 teenaged boys would. No chance. After Mass my son made a comment that it is pretty bad when going to church becomes an occasion of sin. In fact, he anonymously wrote our pastor about the clothes we sometimes have to deal with in the summer. I have found though that the 7:00 and 8:30 Masses pose less risk, so we have adjusted our schedule.
With 3 teenaged boys, I can attest to their temptations towards female immodesty. I know for a fact that it IS a serious concern for my oldest college-aged son. It keeps him going regularly to confession (like every week sometimes). I went last Saturday with him, and he made the comment that he feels so pathetic, because his confession tend to be such repeats. He wished girls would dress nicer. Ummmm. This kid is no prude. He spent years swimming competitively. However, most girls there wore something over their suits before and after their events, especially the older ones. My son took off his shorts/pants (in the winter) right before the event and put them on immediatly after getting out of the water as did his friends. Those tight bikinis that boys compete in are anything but modest, but only the refs right above their lanes saw them in their suits only.
As a mother of teenage boys, I cringe when mothers of teenage girls think clothes don't affect or shouldn't affect my guys. Please help them in their natural struggle to stay pure and gentlemanly and dress your girls modestly.
Blessings,
Stephanie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Rebecca
Forum All-Star
Joined: Dec 30 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1898
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:47pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
abcmommy wrote:
| You find it tmi to know that my 4 times pg belly is flabby? Or that I would enjoy wearing a bikini? or that my family doesnt freak out about nudity? You are unable to keep from picturing this in your mind? I am so sorry, but I find that awfully strange. |
|
|
The uncomfortableness mainly stems from the fact that there are children and teens who read these forums who do not need or want to know what you don't wear while walking around your home.
abcmommy wrote:
| Here's a question for you all who are very conservative on this issue. Do you understand the difference between nudity and eroticism? Have you ever studied art history? Do you have art books or pieces in your homes? Do you study other societies at all? What do you tell your kids about nudity in art or in other societies? |
|
|
Here is where I think you start to lose it and offend nearly everone here.
abcmommy wrote:
| Let me boil it down in old fashioned southern language. Nude is when you have no clothes on. Nekid is when you have no clothing on and are up to no good. There is a legitimate difference there. One is pleasing to God. The other has its time and place. |
|
|
(Again, rude.) If God was pleased with nude, why did he help fashion clothing for Adam and Eve?
Where are these definitions of nude and nekid?
And if "nekid" means up to no good, then why does it have a time or place?
abcmommy wrote:
| As for near occassion of sin, there are all sorts of issues out there with regard to this. |
|
|
That is why we must be diligent to teach our children to avoid them and to helps others to do the same.
abcmommy wrote:
| You have to draw the line where you feel most comfortable for your family. |
|
|
First, my family is most comfortable wearing clothing. Secondly, we wear modest, gender-appropriate clothing that does not cause another to sin.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
StephanieA
Forum Pro
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 394
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:59pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Thank you, Stephanie.
Luckily, my dd does wear shorts with her swimsuits. She's got enough modesty bred into her that she can't stand parading around skimpily clad.
Dear Cay,
My 11 year-old is just there. She is small for her age and finally outgrew the cute skirted swimsuits in size 8 and under. (I haven't been able to find skirted suits bigger than a size 8....anyone have some leads?) So she wanted me to sew a skirt on. I thought and thought, but it is going to look very doubty on this Speedo suit. So I will try to find some sleek pink shorts to match the suit. With 3 older brothers, she is rather self-conscience about what she wears. Unfortunately they LOVE to tease her and give her little slack most of the time. She is going to be in for a surprise when she finds young men out there who compliment her looks Then I'll have problems 
Blessings,
Stephanie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:59pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
abcmommy wrote:
| You find it tmi to know that my 4 times pg belly is flabby? Or that I would enjoy wearing a bikini? or that my family doesnt freak out about nudity? |
|
|
Yup. Way tmi. This is an open forum, and one never knows who might be reading. Right now (when I checked) thee were 4 "guests" online reading. I'd say that none of this is anyone's business.
abcmommy wrote:
| As for breasts being innately sexual, I am afraid I disagree. |
|
|
Umm...This is simply a biological fact. Because breasts have a primary function (lactation) does not negate the secondary function (sexual).
abcmommy wrote:
| Here's a question for you all who are very conservative on this issue. Do you understand the difference between nudity and eroticism? Have you ever studied art history? Do you have art books or pieces in your homes? Do you study other societies at all? What do you tell your kids about nudity in art or in other societies? |
|
|
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I tell them that there is a difference between "art" and Lindsey Lohan (who happens to belong to our beach club) parading nearly naked in front of my teen-aged son. I tell them that, in other societies, standards of modesty differ from ours. That does not seem to be a concept lost on anyone. But we do not live in Amazonia, nor sub-Saharan Africa. Nor do we live in a Muslim nation. Oh, and we are Catholic, and that means that we do things in conformation with Catholic tradition and teachings, just as Muslims and animists do things in accordance with their traditional beliefs.
abcmommy wrote:
| Let me boil it down in old fashioned southern language. Nude is when you have no clothes on. Nekid is when you have no clothing on and are up to no good. There is a legitimate difference there. One is pleasing to God. The other has its time and place. |
|
|
If I accept that definition, for argument's sake, when is it an appropriate time and place to be "up to no good" while nekid?
abcmommy wrote:
| And someone here used a term "right shame" which is to me, the epitome of oxymoronic. Shame is shame and I dont think shame in one's body has any benefits. Being a lady doesnt include shame and I don't believe shame is ever a component of dignity. |
|
|
I think a reasonable person can feel shame at the right time, for behavior that is sinful. Is it appropriate for a young woman to use her body to temp a young man into sinfulness?
abcmommy wrote:
| And as for p\d*philia, the only person responsible for that issue is the p*d&phile. I find it offensive as all get out that anyone would imply otherwise. I see we are mere steps away from the scantily clad girl deserving to be r@ped argument... I had it with my 90 yo grandma once. I would like to have thought our society could have moved beyond her archaic thinking. |
|
|
This is a delicate question. We have, thankfully, moved away from the idea of blaming a woman for being raped. But would you argue that the young men from Duke involved in rape accusations now should have been in a nightclub where women were dancing nude? Why were they there? While the woman involved did not deserve whatever happened (and I would never argue so), would you want your daughter to work in such an establishment? Would you want your sons visiting that club? If we consider the whole matter from the idea of protecting ourselves rather than protecting others, does the issue change? In other words, if, rather than protecting young men against the sins of temptation, we are, instead, protecting our daughters against becoming the objects of sinful lust, does that make the issue more clear? When does it stop being someone else's problem and become ours?
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: June 05 2006 at 5:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
abcmommy wrote:
Have you ever studied art history? Do you have art books or pieces in your homes? Do you study other societies at all? What do you tell your kids about nudity in art or in other societies?
|
|
|
Actaully, I got my degree in Anthropology, and so, yes, I do have knowledge of other cultures. And there are some cultures who find it silly with the way we act in regards to a woman's chest. These societies do not view that part of the body as s*xual at all - it is for feeding babies - , and are amused that we do. HOWEVER -- we don't live there. And just becasue I know about a culture who thinks that way doesn't mean I agree with it or that it is right.
We live here, and there are cultural norms for here, in this day and age. To start comparing 2006 America to the radical Middle East areas or to the jungles of South America, or to the Renaissance, or to art pieces, is just silly.
And, my boy rarely if ever goes around shirt-less either. Neither does my dh. And it would make my dd 16 feel weird if he did, as she has never been exposed to that. We are ALL modest in our dress, boys & girls. If she saw her father or brother n*de all the time, why wouldn't it be just as fine for her to see her friends who are boys that way? What a confusing message for a child!
And I really don't think of myself as "very conservative" either. More often than not, I would like to be more conservative. But not only common sense - but also the Catechism and the Church - has already explained modesty very well. You can't re-interpret it just becasue you don't agree with it.
And you really will find that your attitudes and opinions will change and mature over time. There were things I thought I would never change my mind about, and now feel downright silly that I felt that way.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Dressing Modestly
