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ladybugs
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Helen wrote:
I wonder if the difference is "listening at prayer"?
As an example, what if a parent prayed the Rosary every day, but prayed the Rosary hurriedly, to get it done, because he had to? Instead of entering into the relationship and the meditative quality of the Rosary. Then I can see children rebelling against saying the Rosary (or wearing modest clothes, if this is the attitude) because the children haven't been taught the depth of these practices. They haven't experienced the proximity to God which these practices bring.
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Maria P
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ladybugs
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Woops,
I was going to say (ahem) that I believe you both Sarah and Helen hit upon excellent points.
I really see a difference with our family when we're really connecting and converse. When we're hurried, I don't think I necessarily a positive communicator...but when I invest the time, the tone of the house and our attitudes is truly much more pleasant and willing.
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Maria P
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Helen
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Helen wrote:
what if a parent prayed the Rosary every day, but prayed the Rosary hurriedly,
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I wanted to amend something...
Either one perseveres or doesn't persevere in saying the Rosary. If one perseveres, I think Our Lady would reward a parent who prayed a Rosary consistently every day with the grace to have a relationship and meditations in his Rosary.
The danger is in not persevering.
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Ave Maria!
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Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
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StephanieA
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Helen wrote:
[QUOTE=Helen] what if a parent prayed the Rosary every day, but prayed the Rosary hurriedly,
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My oldest daughter LOVES dresses and wears them quite a bit. My second daughter thinks they are a punishment. My third daughter wears dresses 50% of the time. My fourth daughter won't wear shorts and dislikes pants even in the dead of winter. She wears dresses all the time. I make bloomers to go underneath, especially for little girls who are potty trained and under the ages of 7. Their bodies are porportioned different than older girls and without the bloomers and with 3 boys in the house - this isn't modest.
I require dresses at church, music lessons, going to Grandma's house, etc. But I don't require them all the time. I do require modesty. It is easier to set the standards (ie. no sleeveless) early on and stick to it...although my college-aged son is balking at it lately. Who wants to stare at hairy armpits at the dinner table? So I have compromised - ONLY if he is outside mowing the lawn, etc. He changes when he comes in. Got to pick my battles,I guess, without lowering my standards too much. My husband doesn't own sleeveless shirts - so I guess it's an independent teen statement of some kind. I will not allow girls this priviledge and luckily all are nearly overly conscience - but they aren't in their latter teens. This is the time when problems usually occur.
My family sponsored a Vietamese family in the 70's and they were the most modest people I ever knew. The women and girls never wore dresses. This conforms with the Catholic Catechism that Michele posted earlier. Again, we women are called to be feminine and modest, not a specific form of dress.
Why do teens rebel? Well, I think it is temperament and nothing against or for the particular families. I have 9 siblings and we were all raised with the same modest standards, but some kept these throughout their lives, others didn't. I think this swerves into why kids sin at all? It is a personal choice. Some of my siblings would hide tight jeans in the car and change after they left the house. I, on the other hand, picked out a wedding dress with a high neck. I have loosened up a bit though.
Most of my shirts and dresses don't come up to my ear lobes :) although I still like turtlenecks in the winter.
I think another consideration is our husbands. Mine absolutely hated this very modest swimming suit I once owned. The skirt was very long. I finally got tired of hearing him talk about how ugly it was. With 3 teens boys, I thought it was a great suit, but I finally got rid of it and bought another....a nice modest suit with sleek shorts. He is happy. I tend to be very active (when I'm not expecting a little one). I can't imagine trying to play tennis last summer in a skirt with my teen son. I KNOW women do it, but I also know that my son would have winced to have been seen with his mom on the court with a jean skirt welding a tennis racket.
He would have found an excuse not to play tennis with me.
Overall my kids are modest and that's my goal. The key...if anything draws the eyes of a man to a particular place then maybe another outfit, shirt, pants, dress would be more appropriate. I tell my girls: when in doubt, don't buy it or wear it. Better to err on the side of caution.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Sarah
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StephanieA wrote:
| It is easier to set the standards (ie. no sleeveless) early on and stick to it... |
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I am really wondering about his with my daughter who will be 3 this summer.
Many shirts she has are sleeveless. They basically look like shirts with the sleeveless cut off, rather than tanks where the area around the back and armpits is showing, know what I mean? There are also those flutter type sleeves that are basically a ruffle attached at the top of the shoulder. Anyway, I wonder if I should phase these out while she's still young and has no idea? I know that it isn't immodest because she is so little, but I wonder if it becomes a habit that I may have to face later. hmmmm. . . .probably.
Its really hard to find shirts with sleeves these days, especially for little girls.
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abcmommy
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Personally, sleeveless or not isnt a matter of modesty to me.
I think you can wear a sleeveless top and be modest and a long sleeved top and look horrid. I think dressing so far out of the norm that you call attention to your family is odd and immodest in a way! I see that among certain prot. denoms. here in the midwest. An entire family in matching ankle length denim jumpers (with tennis shoes and socks) and uncut hair swinging rattily behind. ugh.
To me, modesty isnt just about coverage. I think practicality has to be considered. perhaps some of you feel called to wear ankle length jumpers and that is fine if you feel that is necessary, but for me, I feel much more attractive, tidy, modest and etc when wearing nicely fitted pants and a polo shirt. Or a knee length skirt and an attractively fitted tee. I am not interested in drawing attention to myself with odd ways of dressing any more than I am by eye catchingly tacky clothing!
I think sleeveless tees are perfectly appropriate on the hottest summer days for both my daughter and I, just as I think a bathing suit (normal, not a thong but certainly not an 1915 style either!) is appropriate at the beach.
I dont think a 3 year old should be burdened with adult requirements of moesty, either. Children are not adults and they are far more active. Their clothing should reflect that. Nor are their bodies adult, and shame in her body isnt something i want to even hint at for my dd. (not that people who have stricter standards than I have are automatically shaming!)
My dd is only 18 mos. She is always dressed comfortably and practically, and beautifully too, in Hanna Anderson, Gymboree and etc (thankyou to my friends who supply her with hand me downs!) She wears a bikini at the pool and will continue to do so until diaper changes and pottying become her responsibility, bc practicality dictates that a bikini (tankini, hanna lands end and such) is way more reasonable at this age- and her belly isnt immodest. Its a darling baby belly.
I hope as she grows her rule of thumb will be to dress attractively, in a way which doesnt call attention to her for being either too dowdy or too sleazy. I want her to learn to dress in a feminine manner, whether in pants or dresses, and in things that make her appear well groomed and generally at her best. I find that the better brands of kids clothing make this fairly easy to accomplish.
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teachingmom
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For the most part, my girls are fine with our clothing rules, which I think are sort of middle-of-the-road for Catholics. One-piece swim suits, tops long enough so tummy doesn't show as they move (this gets trickier as they grow fast--sometimes buying things that are long enough means buying things that are huge in the shoulders for a tall, thin child), dresses and skirts to the knee or (in a few cases) slightly above, shorts don't have to come to the knees but at least to the fingertips of arms extended downwards (I'm so glad that capris and bermuda shorts are in style now!), no tank tops or thin spaghetti strap but normal sleeveless tops with 2 or 3 inch-width across the shoulders or flutter sleeves OK. I keep to these guidelines from the beginning, since I really believe it's hard to tell a girl at age 8 or 9 that suddenly something that she's been wearing all along is inappropriate.
guitarnan wrote:
Many of you know that we've lived in Italy. That's one of those places where the "culture" of modesty is very different...Italian women under a certain age wear much more revealing summertime fashions than do Americans. |
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The hard part is dealing with an extended family on my side in which three out of five of my sisters-in-law are from other countries with modesty standards as Nancy describes above. So we end up spending various Sundays and a full week at the beach each summer with aunts and cousins who are constantly wearing things that are completely off limits for my family. It's frustrating!
I have one sister-in-law and brother on my side of the family who feel as we do about modest dressing -- Thank God for that! The good thing is that they also have a dd close to my oldest dd's age, who happens to be very clothes-conscious like my oldest. It really helps to have one ally.
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abcmommy
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I don't understand the contention that its difficult to explain to a pubescent or pre pubescent child that the rules have suddenly changed. Many other societies have much more stringent rules than those described here and these changes occur at the proper time- children in muslim countries go from complete freedom of dress to the veil.
It seems to me quite obvious that major changes are taking place at that time and it is a clearly and naturally demarcated time for changes in behavior and levels of modesty as well. I wouldnt think this would be at all hard to explain nor would I expect a child would find it hard to understand.
For example, my 8 yo neighbor dd has been doing flips with her shirt flying up all her life but in the next yr I expect this will change as she will begin to feel the need to change her behavior and possibly need a sportsbra or cami. No one has to explain this to her. its begun already.
My 1 yo has the freedom of nudity in the yard. My 9 yo wouldnt be caught dead. I think these changes occur naturally and children understand thm much better than some give them credit for.
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marihalojen
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guitarnan wrote:
I lived in Virginia Beach for 7 years, and every single summer our pastor had to remind the regular churchgoers that bathing suits weren't proper Mass attire!  |
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 Oh, I laughed so hard! Down here I spend most of Mass and esp. the Communion Parade telling myself it could be worse, I could live with the Bushmen of Africa, or in some topless tribe in the South Seas...one Sunday I was esp. annoyed and uncomfortable at the world in general and crocheted tunics over bikinis in particular and left after mass in a rage.
Dd then whispered in my ear in the parking lot 'You have blue stripey undies on, don't ya?' 'What??? Yeah, so?' "We can see them.' Turns out when I was splashed leaving the boat for mass that my one pair of khaki capris (my only pants) are absolutely see through when wet. So while I was sending out hate waves, most likely I was receiving them back in full measure esp. as we were sitting toward the front and the entire church walked past my kneeling form. Oh! The higher we are (in our own minds) the harder we fall! Besides I bet Mary was just plain tired of my diatribe and decided a little humility and humbling was in order.  So now I try to chat with her on how great it is that these tourists made the effort to stop by here on their way to the beach/dive boat and packed the place full, so nice! Standing room only!
As far as modesty in clothing for children, I really only have one rule – no cleavage! All these lowcut tops and swimsuits! Who cares about arms and legs being exposed, I have bigger issues here. For what it’s worth, I have found that exercise shirts are really decent and made of heavier material with higher necklines. I think we may adopt a sporty feminine look this summer. Now, if they’d only go on clearance…
Okay, before I posted this I refreshed and just read abcmommy’s post. Children here are little nudists but usually decide really quickly for themselves when clothes are a good option. Trust the kids, they have good ingrained instincts about what really matters.
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The Mari Hal-O-Jen
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Taffy
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marihalojen wrote:
| The higher we are (in our own minds) the harder we fall! Besides I bet Mary was just plain tired of my diatribe and decided a little humility and humbling was in order. So now I try to chat with her on how great it is that these tourists made the effort to stop by here on their way to the beach/dive boat and packed the place full, so nice! Standing room only! |
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Well said! 
This is something I need to remember too. 
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Susan
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Elizabeth
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abcmommy wrote:
For example, my 8 yo neighbor dd has been doing flips with her shirt flying up all her life but in the next yr I expect this will change as she will begin to feel the need to change her behavior and possibly need a sportsbra or cami. No one has to explain this to her. its begun already.
My 1 yo has the freedom of nudity in the yard. My 9 yo wouldnt be caught dead. I think these changes occur naturally and children understand thm much better than some give them credit for. |
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Perhaps it will happen naturally. Or, perhaps, those girls will be like the teenaged ones I see every weekend on the soccer fields, who think nothing is more natural on a hot day than pulling off a jersey and wearing nothing but the sports bra underneath  . The discussion of modesty and purity must begin early and continue evermore. We give children credit for their ability to understand when we dialogue with them at an age-appropriate level on every important thing all through their childhood so that when they are adults, they will be spiritually mature and some of our best friends on the planet.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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abcmommy
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I guess I dont see a sports bra as so scandalous on a soccer field. Why are our bellies so private, anyway? Why more so than the knees or upper arms? But then, I will allow my dd to wear a bikini as a teen. As long as its attractive. and not made of dental floss.
I dont mean to be so difficult, but to me, its all about the time and the place. Bellies needn't be shown in church or at the mall, but on a hot sweaty soccer practice field with an all girl's team, where men would as soon go shirtless, I guess I see some level of common sense there. Is a girl so responsible for man's inability to control their thoughts than she must be uncomfortable? Is a tummy bared for soccer equivalent to cleavage and hotpants on the dance floor? I guess i do not think it is.
I can guarrantee you won't be seeing MY belly anytime soon, regardless. well, unless my 19 month old decides to show it to you while we nurse. which I do in public without a shred of concern for modesty, tho I do try to stay covered as much as possible. If you see skin (saggy baggy stretched out skin at that) I consider that your punishment for looking. LOL
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Elizabeth
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As the mother of five sons, I know that both they and their father would prefer not to have young women running around in their underwear at soccer tournaments. Women bear some responsibility for not being the near occasion of sin to their neighbors. FWIW, usually the boys will take off their game shirts and put on a training or practice shirt after a game. I rarely see topless boys (hadn't really thought about it until now). Our lifeguard last summer rolled her tankini up to bare her belly and we could all see her Playboy belly button ring. At what point is that inappropriate: the bare belly? the navel ring? What did her father think when he let his precious daughter parade her advertisement in front of hundreds of patrons every day? Who is protecting these children from their indiscretion?
FWIW,my sons who are teenagers tend to avoid hotpants and cleavage as well.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MichelleM
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teachingmom wrote:
| One-piece swim suits, tops long enough so tummy doesn't sho w as they move (this gets trickier as they grow fast--sometimes buying things that are long enough means buying things that are huge in the shoulders for a tall, thin child), dresses and skirts to the knee or (in a few cases) slightly above, shorts don't have to come to the knees but at least to the fingertips of arms extended downwards (I'm so glad that capris and bermuda shorts are in style now!), no tank tops or thin spaghetti strap but normal sleeveless tops with 2 or 3 inch-width across the shoulders or flutter sleeves OK. I keep to these guidelines from the beginning... |
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These are our standards of dress for our children as well. It is becoming difficult though, with our 7yr old because she is tall and slender with long arms & legs and a short torso. 
abcmommy wrote:
It seems to me quite obvious that major changes are taking place at that time and it is a clearly and naturally demarcated time for changes in behavior and levels of modesty as well.
For example, my 8 yo neighbor dd has been doing flips with her shirt flying up all her life but in the next yr I expect this will change as she will begin to feel the need to change her behavior and possibly need a sportsbra or cami. No one has to explain this to her. its begun already.
My 1 yo has the freedom of nudity in the yard. My 9 yo wouldnt be caught dead. I think these changes occur naturally and children understand thm much better than some give them credit for. |
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We set these standards from the beginning not so much because of any "indecency" on the part of our children but rather to protect their person from becoming the object of someone else's perversion even if only objectified through that persons imagination. The statistics on Internet P*rn, especially in regards to child p*rn, are alarming. I will try to post a link later when I have more time.
I do believe that children do develop a right sense of shame in exhibiting inappropriate body parts as they develop somewhat "naturally". However, I think this natural development of wanting to protect what is private & dignified (a right sense of shame) can easily be lost, especially when our culture (media) is molesting our children with the profane. I believe that our culture is doing a huge injustice to our girls by overtly s**ualizing them and sending the message that their dignity and worth is intrinsically tied to their ability to arouse lust in boys/men. I believe this conditioning (through advertisement, fashion, Hollywood, etc.) in many cases is numbing (& in some cases rendering deaf) our girls to hearing and heeding their interior voice of modesty.
So to counteract this attack on our girls, I do feel, we as mothers, have to be proactive in our approach to form and protect our girls from losing the ability to develop the virtue of modesty form an early age. So for me, that is why I have set the standards of dress that I have. I try to approach it in a positive way for my girls focusing on how wonderful and special they are, and that through their bodies they express who they are to the world. They also know that some things are private & such great treasures that they are not to be shared with everyone. They're hearts and their bodies are such treasures.
At their age, I DO NOT tell them about their responsibility to dress modestly in regards to not causing someone else to sin although that is one reason to be modest. I think that helping them to develop a strong sense of self & worth is much more important in helping them to BE modest rather than just trying to live by a set of rules of dress. 
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KASB
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Elizabeth wrote:
| As the mother of five sons, I know that both they and their father would prefer not to have young women running around in their underwear at soccer tournaments. Women bear some responsibility for not being the near occasion of sin to their neighbors. |
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Amen, Elizabeth. As the mom of 8 boys, I agree completely. My boys have commented on several occasions that they are bothered by women and girls in bikinis at the pool. They also don't like to see girls/women dressed in low cut shirts, bellies showing, tank tops with bras showing - they are bothered, even the younger ones.
abcmommy, I get the feeling that you are a bit younger than some of the moms who have a differnt standard for modesty. Your daughter is still a toddler. I know when I wasn't such "seasoned" mom I thought about a lot of things differently than I do now. I wouldn't be at all surprised if your thoughts on modesty evolved as your daughter gets older.
Blessings,
Kym
mom to 9 (8 boys-23,13,10,8,7,4,2,10 mos. and 1 girl-21)
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marihalojen
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Elizabeth wrote:
| The discussion of modesty and purity must begin early and continue evermore. We give children credit for their ability to understand when we dialogue with them at an age-appropriate level on every important thing all through their childhood so that when they are adults, they will be spiritually mature and some of our best friends on the planet. |
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I think we are continuing this dialogue, researching it, trying to understand what is appropriate for our families in each of our locales and in the activities each family chooses to participate in. Is there a universal standard? We have some guidance through the Catechism but it does not list specifics nor should it if it is to apply universally. This is obviously a topic close to many a mothers' heart and the more exploration and thought that we do, the better guidance and discussions we can have with our children.
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~Jennifer
Mother to Mariannna, age 13
The Mari Hal-O-Jen
SSR = Sailing, Snorkling, Reading
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Elizabeth
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Jennifer,
I think you are in one of those unique situations where the cultural norm is different. For all of us, we are surrounded by immodesty as a standard. But for you, it is appropriate to sit around in a in a bathing suit with a pareo around your waist. You're on a boat! What you and Marianna have to discern is what the parameters are for the bathing suit. You are in a great position to show the boating world how women can be comfortable and feminine and modest and move as they need to. But I am eager to see how you do it, because you certainly have a greater challenge than the average mom in the midwest!
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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abcmommy
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I doubt my standards will change that much. I dont think its age, I think its liberalism. I am pretty liberal. in house, we are often nude and comfortable with it.
I am pretty sure I'd wear a bikini today if my belly were more attractive. I am only 30. My boys are not so far bothered by bikini clad girls, at age 9 and 6. Their father isnt either and while he may appreciate some lady's fine physique at the pool I am pretty certain he doesnt see her as a near occassion of sin. I think that is weird- to be so distracted by human flesh??
The child pron issue always bothers me bc I feel it isnt relevant. I refuse to live my life as if predators are after me at every turn.
My mother was an older mom, btw. She never ever once used the word modest as far as I can recall. So perhaps that is why I have such liberal standards. Yet I have always dressed more conservatively than most people I know. I think even as a teen my wardrobe was mostly talbots inspired.[LOL}
ITA that there is something very wrong in our culture re; sexuality, young women, and childhood and that overtly sexual children's clothing is a readily available and inappropriate.
But i think you add to the issue unnecessarily when you sexualise what isnt sexual (ie a sports bra- possibly the least attractive garment on earth- or the bare arms of a 7yo.)
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Elizabeth
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I think the Church is a pretty old mother and she has most certainly used the word "modesty" so I'll follow her example. It's not a question of liberalism at all. It is a question of being a good Catholic. Faithful Catholics are well formed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Michele has quoted the catechism in this thread and the CCC clearly calls for modesty. As Catholic home educators we take seriously the Church's mandate to be primary educators of our children. That education encompasses far more than the abcs. We have a moral obligation to teach our children what is modest behavior. With that teaching, comes the teaching of purity. It IS a slippery slope for a young man; the wisdom of the church bears this out and so do the behavioural sciences. We are protecting their innocence and we are protecting their souls.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MicheleQ
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abcmommy wrote:
| I think that is weird- to be so distracted by human flesh?? |
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Well it might seem weird to you but I think it's pretty natural. Men espeically are much more visually stimulated than women and what often seems like no big deal to us is indeed a very big deal to them.
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| The child pron issue always bothers me bc I feel it isnt relevant. I refuse to live my life as if predators are after me at every turn. |
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We should never live our lives in fear but we don't want to be an occasion of sin for someone else either (something we WILL have to answer for someday). I want my children to mindful of what they are saying with their bodies and modesty is a part of that.
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| But i think you add to the issue unnecessarily when you sexualise what isnt sexual (ie a sports bra- possibly the least attractive garment on earth- or the bare arms of a 7yo.) |
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A sports bra may be unattractive to you but to a young man it could very well be something else entirely. The point being that it isn't just about how *I* see things but what message am I sending. Am I not my brother's keeper? Just because I don't see something I'm wearing as provacative doesn't mean someone else won't and while not everyone will agree on the "standard" we still need to be thinking about how what we wear and/or allow our children to wear could be leading someone else to sin.
God bless,
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Dressing Modestly
