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Jenn Sal
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Hello Everyone!
I have a daughter who will be five in August. She has gone from toddler clothes to the next department (junior?). I am shocked at the clothes they are making for children her age  . I have found myself having to explain that she needs to dress modestly, but I don't have a clear explanation. She said, "Mama, can I show my neck?" 
Does anyone have a good explanation, resource, or basic rule of thumb? We live in NC where the summers get HOT. She is wearing a tank top today and I wonder, "Is that modest???"
Thank you for any help! You know, I studied fashion merchandising in college. Can you believe they didn't cover modesty?
Love,
__________________
Jennifer, Texas
Wife to Mark, Mom to Cora 13,Kade 10, Sarah in Heaven 12/05, Colette 7, Corin 5, & Kieran 2
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Sarah
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I don't think sleeveless is bad for little girls. The problem can I guess happen later when they are in the habit, and you try to switch over. Now, some tank top just look like miniture versions of something a woman shouldn't wear  . I have my dd in sleeveless, but not tank tops, just because I prefer the look.
Little girls should be little girls, not women, not boys. Little girls climb, jump, & play and their clothes should be feminine & covering, but allow them to do those things. I've seen families require their daughters to ONLY wear dresses and their underwear shows when they play or sit . If dd wears a dress for play, I make sure she's covered under with shorts, bloomers,etc. (or at least try!)
However, don't get too uptight, or I really think it could lead to rebellion later. I'm not speaking from experience, but only from what I've observed from other families.
I simply don't buy those things for dd that look like she's a teenager. 
__________________
Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
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Helen
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Dear Jennifer,
I hesitate to answer this question because I seem to answer modesty questions all the time.
If we want our daughters as teenagers to accept our guidance in dressing, I believe it is important to begin training them when they are young. Much the way we train them to brush their teeth, or eat the right food, we want to teach them to dress in a feminine and Godly way. Modesty is the door to purity. This is why it is not popular in our culture to make a real effort at modesty. But, it is a popular topic with Our Lady and Our Lord. Our Lady specifically spoke of modesty to the three shepherd children at Fatima. They were young - 6,7, and 8 years old.
For me, my nightmarish thoughts were of my daughter as a teenager, rebelling against me, arguing with me with comments like:
"No these jeans are not too tight" "This shirt is not too revealing."
Or another frightening thought was my son bringing home a scantily clad girlfriend wearing those clothes.
(We teach our children more with the way we behave than the words we use.)
I think if a mother would be uncomfortable with a teenager wearing a tank top and shorts, then maybe it is a good idea to begin early in teaching her to dress in a feminine and Godly manner. Just the way we teach our children to eat properly, speak properly and use good manners. It is very difficult and up hill battle, to wake up one day, when they are grown, and begin teaching them.
But, our culture makes this a very unpopular topic. Purity is frowned upon and personal comfort is everything.
Catholic Modesty
I post often about it at my blog.Here's one post
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Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
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Jenn Sal
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Sarah,
Thank you for your thoughts!
I want my daughter to grow up knowing that her body is a temple and that she should treat it with respect. And when I saw the clothes available to her, it made me realise that I need to start thinking of making clothing choices sooner than I thought! The fashion world doesn't exactly care about values.
Thankfully, I'm not obsessing on this...yet! I know what you mean by rebelling later. Fashion is a love of mine from when I was little. So, I would never cover her from head-to-toe. Unless, it was all the rage!  I was never told my skirt was too short, jeans too tight, any of that. And if I was, I would have liked an explination other than, "Because I said so.", "It's just not lady-like." or "It's just not right."
I'm just curious what you wonderful group of women have to say about and how you may explain it to your children.
__________________
Jennifer, Texas
Wife to Mark, Mom to Cora 13,Kade 10, Sarah in Heaven 12/05, Colette 7, Corin 5, & Kieran 2
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Helen
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Jenn Sal wrote:
I'm just curious what you wonderful group of women have to say about and how you may explain it to your children.
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I asked my 12 year old daughter to reflect on this question and answer. We are one of those "radical families" who do wear skirts/dresses all the time. So, it might be of interest to hear a young lady who has grown up like this to say a few words. (Although, as I write "radical family", I'm happy to think of the family of St. Therese or even families of only 50 years ago.)
Here's my daughter (who had a great time with the emoticons.)
"I don’t feel that my mother is forceful about modest clothes. I also think I do not feel resentment because Jesus died for me and He asks me to wear modest clothes.  And God doesn’t force us to wear clothes that we don’t like! He just asks me to wear modest clothes, gently. It is beautiful that God doesn’t force us to do anything, even though He is All-powerful. He gives us grace and then asks us to do what He gave us grace to do.
There are some people who gave their lives for purity like St. Maria Goretti.  To think that I am her age and to not even care about modesty would make me feel very uncomfortable.
Modesty is rewarding. God rewards you with either a good feeling inside or some personal gift. 
There are some things that you can’t do with a dress on but all the things you get from wearing a dress totally make up for that.
For example:
You have a clear conscience.
You have a lot more options in a dress
Or you can wear a skirt.
I think skirts are really nice. 
I don’t feel uncomfortable when my mother says “I think that is a little too short.” I think it is because Mommy really cares how I dress and I really care too. I’ve grown up wearing dresses it becomes part of your nature. You don’t want to wear anything else.
After wearing modest clothes for years, when you put something less modest on you literally feel naked. I don’t mean you have to wear long sleeves, dresses to your ankles and sweaters when it is boiling out. But, you do have to have sleeves and skirts below your knee. "
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Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
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Alice R
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Hi Ladies,
We are pretty modest dressers. My daughter only wears long skirts (unless she can really fall and cut her knees...then I put her in loose pants).
Just a tip-if you'd like your girls to wear dresses but don't appreciate the "underwear show" just put biking shorts or those stretchy shorts under her dress.
Editiong to add: I grew up wearing almost exclusively dreses/skirts. I obviously didn't suffer too much or I wouldn't have continued or dress my daughter in dresses/skirts. And yes, that is totally correct; after years of wearing very modest clothing-you do develop a taste for what is modest ( or reasonably modest) and what is totally NOT. I'm hoping it carries her safely through the teenage years as it did for me.
Blessings,
Alice R
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Elizabeth
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I told Helen recently that I did think of one place where pants were more modest than dresses: I simply can't wear a dress to the chiropractor .
My girls wear mostly dresses and I consider myself very blessed that my nine-year-old loves to dress identically with her three-year-old sister. They wear lots of simple cotton knit dresses from Lands End, LLBean and Hanna.
That said, we reserve a pair of jeans, a pair of capris. and a pair of longer shorts. I want them outside--all the time. Dresses are fine in the heat, but they are not the most modest thing to wear for backyard soccer. Even with bike shorts underneath, I've noticed that the dresses draw the attention of middle school boys (my backyard is a magnet for boys). They're thinking: hmmm...what's going to happen if she's tackled? Just how much can I see?. A dress defeats the purpose if it's drawing attention to what's underneath.
And I can't get comfortable in sub-freezing rain on a sideline in a dress; I want my children bundled as well. Their coats cover their bottoms and hips anyway, so there's no scandal there.
My point is that I think the dialogue is much more important than a rigid dress code. We talk about what modesty is. We talk about feminity. We talk about clothes we see that are immodest. We talk about what compels girls to dress that way and we talk a whole lot about conformity and peer pressure. And, I have the ultimate trump card: brothers! If she's going through a bag of hand-me-downs, her brothers are unafraid to tell her if something is too short or too lowcut or too tight.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MichelleW
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My 8yo son asked me about modesty today. He asked me to define it (we were in the car or I would have looked it up in the dictionary). I told him that modesty is keeping private what you want to keep private. That is all I could come up with at the time. He seemed happy with that, but I am going to have to do some soul searching and self-educating this week. This is going to come up again really soon I'm afraid....
On the other hand, I also have that secret weapon--brothers. The boys feel very responsible for dd and her image already (she is only 7). She has, thus far, responded very well to their opinions (though in some ways they are more conservative than I am).
Michelle
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dsauclair
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My challenge in the modesty issue comes from the other end. My 4 y.o. daughter has apparently accepted my explanations on dressing modestly that whenever we are in public, she will often point out whose belly buttons, backs, or knees are showing  I would anticipate her comments with a whispered "if you wish to discuss other people, let's wait till we're at home."
I also have a 2 y.o. daughter who's cute outfits show much of her chubby body parts. I get stumped when my dd4 advises me to change the young one's clothes "so she can be modest too." I don't want to create a double standard here but I do like the cute outfits, and just reply that "she's still a baby." (And hopefully be more consistent when she doesn't look like one?)
*sigh*
Diane
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Rebecca
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Even with bike shorts underneath, I've noticed that the dresses draw the attention of middle school boys (my backyard is a magnet for boys). They're thinking: hmmm...what's going to happen if she's tackled? Just how much can I see?. A dress defeats the purpose if it's drawing attention to what's underneath. |
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Elizabeth, are neighborhood boys tackling either of your two little daughters?!? Are they all playing football? Enlighten me!
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Elizabeth
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Rebecca wrote:
Elizabeth wrote:
| Even with bike shorts underneath, I've noticed that the dresses draw the attention of middle school boys (my backyard is a magnet for boys). They're thinking: hmmm...what's going to happen if she's tackled? Just how much can I see?. A dress defeats the purpose if it's drawing attention to what's underneath. |
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Elizabeth, are neighborhood boys tackling either of your two little daughters?!? Are they all playing football? Enlighten me!
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A soccer tackle isn't really a tackle like in football. It's more like a baseball slide that upends the defensive player, only in this case, it's the offensive player who is upended by the defensive player. Still, she doesn't stay on her feet and neither does the other child. Soccer is a physical sport and maybe it's inappropriate for mixed genders. But at our house, there is almost always a pickup game in the backyard and the game is open to all ages and genders. It's fun to see the big ones teaching the little ones. It's great to see them all flushed and sweaty and happy. Please don't tell me that my girls shouldn't be playing with boys in the backyard. I really would have a hard time with that. I can't imagine forcing my girls to sit on the sidelines.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Rebecca
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Please don't tell me that my girls shouldn't be playing with boys in the backyard. I really would have a hard time with that. |
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I can't imagine boys not being allowed to play with girls. The children in our neighborhood are for the majority, girls. My boys play with them nearly every day.
I do try to teach them to treat girls with respect and be gentlemanly around them but it does not always work. Just the other day the girls from across the street came over to play "kings and queens" and I found Christopher (6) had tied up one of the queens to a tree with his Roy Rogers trick lasso. He claims she was from the enemy camp. Actually, it was all in good fun and the girls were playing along as to who would be the prisoner next.
I did have to break up a championship wrestling competition in my backyard that the girls had initiated to prove their dominance. One girl in particular seems to want to wrestle. She is only 5 and has been hsled her whole life. Somehow, boys and girls wrestling does not sit right with me. Not only from a modesty standpoint but from a "my almost ten year old could easily squish you with one small squeeze" standpoint.
I truly was picturing big neighborhood boys coming over in football gear and plowing over your girls in their little dresses!
Here is where I can admit that I have NEVER seen a SINGLE soccer game, live or on television in my entire life , which is why I did not know the "tackle" term.
See what an education one can get on these boards !?
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Rebecca
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PS. I should name my last post "Fun with emoticons"!
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Jenn Sal
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Thank you everyone for your stories and information. It's nice to know that other families are having to discuss this, too. I think it's safe to say that nobody I knew growing up had these discusssions! And everyone I knew was Roman Catholic.
So many new discoveries on this journey through life with my children!
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Jennifer, Texas
Wife to Mark, Mom to Cora 13,Kade 10, Sarah in Heaven 12/05, Colette 7, Corin 5, & Kieran 2
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ladybugs
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Please don't tell me that my girls shouldn't be playing with boys in the backyard. I really would have a hard time with that. I can't imagine forcing my girls to sit on the sidelines. |
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Dear Elizabeth,
As you may remember we sent our children to a coop due to my health problems...well, there were only 63 children in the whole place - most of them 3rd grade and under - which is where my 3 girls were...one day, one of the volunteers at the school took away their soccer ball and told them they shouldn't be playing with boys! It wasn't ladylike! I was livid! For one, the play area was small, 2, the population of the school small and three - I have very physical girls who need to exert themselves!
We handled the situation but I'll tell you...I was mad! 
So, I would never tell you that your girls shouldn't be playing with boys. I'd say, "What time does the game start?" 
__________________
Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
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Sarah
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Elizabeth wrote:
My point is that I think the dialogue is much more important than a rigid dress code. We talk about what modesty is. We talk about feminity. |
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I think this is the foundation of it all. It isn't simply about wearing a dress (BTW, I don't own a pair of pants, not because I think they're sinful, but because of a promise I made years ago--yep, even garden in a skirt ).
But, back to the point. Modesty cannot just be defined as a long skirt. There are some only long skirt wearers out there who I would consider immodest. For example, if the skirt is too tight such that your hip bones show, or your backside is well-defined, even if the skirt goes to your ankles--its immodest. If your long skirt is slit above you knee so that at the communion rail we can see your inner thigh--its immodest. If you fail to wear a slip, and the fabric is sheer in good lighting such that you entire form is revealed--its immodest. If the fabric of your long skirt is a clingy knit that hugs every curve (a different aspect of too tight)--its immodest. That's just my opinion.
Maybe I sound radical here. But there's seems to me that there is a big picture of feminity and modesty. I really agree with Elizabeth on her example with the girls playing with the neighbors. The girls would be better off in feminine modest shorts with a decent cute top than attracting indecent attention to themselves ith a dress. The boys naturally wonder what's underneath.
I know two families with older girls. Both mothers required dress wearing at a young age. One of the families had girls the REFUSED as they got older, the other family had no problems. What when wrong? I wonder. . . temperment?
I've noticed that my dd who is 3 this summer prefers NOT to wear a dress  . When getting dresses each morning she'll reach for the pant or shorts to play in. I'm not going to start a dress power struggle, though. However, I made it an unnegotiable policy that she wears a cute dress to Mass, to dad's office, and similar occasions. She doesn't question it.
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MicheleQ
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MichelleW wrote:
| My 8yo son asked me about modesty today. He asked me to define it (we were in the car or I would have looked it up in the dictionary). I told him that modesty is keeping private what you want to keep private. That is all I could come up with at the time. He seemed happy with that, but I am going to have to do some soul searching and self-educating this week. This is going to come up again really soon I'm afraid.... |
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Sounds like a good start to me.
Here's how the Catechism explains modesty:
2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one's choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.
2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.
2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.
God bless,
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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guitarnan
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Michele,
You always have such great things to contribute to a discussion!
Elizabeth,
I'm with you (especially about the standing on the sidelines part!! Brrr!!). My daughter is 110% active, and putting her in dresses all the time won't work. This summer she chose skorts instead of shorts...I balked, but it's working great so far. She looks nice and the skorts aren't hyper-short. Her baseball coach hasn't said a word.
Helen,
Your daughter is so eloquent! How well she states that feeling you have when you aren't really dressed properly! I can tell you have really shared your values with her. I sure wish she lived near me, so that some of the teens up here could learn from her good influence.
Everyone,
Many of you know that we've lived in Italy. That's one of those places where the "culture" of modesty is very different...Italian women under a certain age wear much more revealing summertime fashions than do Americans. (They are pretty modest at the beach, whew!) At the same time, you can't go into any Italian church unless your shoulders and knees are covered, whether you're male or female. This got our family talking about proper dress, more than once! We tried to focus on the immense respect we should have for God as we enter into any church, and how in our own country some people have forgotten that dress reflects respect. (I lived in Virginia Beach for 7 years, and every single summer our pastor had to remind the regular churchgoers that bathing suits weren't proper Mass attire! )
It's been fairly easy to convince my daughter that not all fashionable items are appropriate for her to wear. She's extremely fashion conscious (she seems to have been born this way, always using her clothes in creative ways), but she knows I won't let her dress like an adult or let her show her midriff, etc. I do worry about the teen years, but I have to trust that God's going to help us out when those years come. Surely my daughter's own sense of what really looks nice on her and what is appropriate for certain activities has been given to help her (and me) when those days arrive.
I can't imagine not allowing my daughter to play with boys, by the way. There just aren't enough kids in our county to make up an all-girl baseball/soccer/basketball team. I really, really believe in physical activity as an important component of our overall health, and without organized sports it would be so hard to help my kids stay fit.
We did have a (Christian mom-led) campaign to have our pool lifeguards wear "uniform" swimwear because some of the young ladies were wearing skimpy bikinis. That was distracting, to say the least. However, the "uniform" lifeguard suits aren't that great. They aren't lined enough in the front. They're definitely 1-piece, red, official, practical and all that...but I'd guess they will still distract our sailors. Sigh.
This thread has really helped me...in such a positive way! It's very nice to know that other families with active girls are striving for modesty AND fitness.
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Helen
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Thanks Nancy
A mother can never hear enough praise about her children!
(I love hearing the words of the catechism, thanks Michele.)
I agree that wintertime it is pretty tough wearing a skirt. I began wearing skirts full time in the summer and then gradually it became a year round thing. I'll just mention that wool skirts are by far the warmest thing in the winter. With boots and a wool sweater you feel like you're in a sleeping bag, its so warm! I have two wool skirts and they look great season after season.
Also, I have found in the winter, by wearing multiple slips or old skirts under my thinner skirts in addition to leggings (or heavy tights) with boots, I don't feel the cold. And the multiple layers are not noticeable to the outside world.
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Ave Maria!
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Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
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Helen
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Sarah wrote:
Modesty cannot just be defined as a long skirt.
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I agree with you Sarah, and you made very important observations regarding modesty.
Sarah wrote:
the other family had no problems. What when wrong? I wonder. . . temperment? |
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I wonder if the difference is "listening at prayer"?
As an example, what if a parent prayed the Rosary every day, but prayed the Rosary hurriedly, to get it done, because he had to? Instead of entering into the relationship and the meditative quality of the Rosary. Then I can see children rebelling against saying the Rosary (or wearing modest clothes, if this is the attitude) because the children haven't been taught the depth of these practices. They haven't experienced the proximity to God which these practices bring.
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Ave Maria!
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Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Dressing Modestly
