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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Sept 16 2014 at 11:18pm | IP Logged
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So I've been wanting to come back to this topic but I've been soooooo busy.
But since we talked alot about self defense here in this post.. I thought this was the best place to put this..
Catechism of the Catholic Church wrote:
Legitimate defense
2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65
2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67
2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68
Intentional homicide
2268 The fifth commandment forbids direct and intentional killing as gravely sinful. The murderer and those who cooperate voluntarily in murder commit a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance.69
Infanticide,70 fratricide, parricide, and the murder of a spouse are especially grave crimes by reason of the natural bonds which they break. Concern for eugenics or public health cannot justify any murder, even if commanded by public authority.
2269 The fifth commandment forbids doing anything with the intention of indirectly bringing about a person's death. The moral law prohibits exposing someone to mortal danger without grave reason, as well as refusing assistance to a person in danger.
The acceptance by human society of murderous famines, without efforts to remedy them, is a scandalous injustice and a grave offense. Those whose usurious and avaricious dealings lead to the hunger and death of their brethren in the human family indirectly commit homicide, which is imputable to them.71
Unintentional killing is not morally imputable. But one is not exonerated from grave offense if, without proportionate reasons, he has acted in a way that brings about someone's death, even without the intention to do so.
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Wow.. I was pretty sure of my ground when saying that self-defense was permitted even to the use of lethal means. But this basically says that as "one responsible for the lives of others" it could be considered a "grave duty".
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Sept 17 2014 at 12:24am | IP Logged
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Hmmm so in the bold part above it stops talking just about defense of a life and starts talking about defense of the "common good". So.. I'm still working through this but wanted to post it here as well..
Catechism of the Catholic Church wrote:
II. THE COMMON GOOD
1905 In keeping with the social nature of man, the good of each individual is necessarily related to the common good, which in turn can be defined only in reference to the human person:
Do not live entirely isolated, having retreated into yourselves, as if you were already justified, but gather instead to seek the common good together.25
1906 By common good is to be understood "the sum total of social conditions which allow people, either as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily."26 The common good concerns the life of all. It calls for prudence from each, and even more from those who exercise the office of authority. It consists of three essential elements:
1907 First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such. In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person. Society should permit each of its members to fulfill his vocation. In particular, the common good resides in the conditions for the exercise of the natural freedoms indispensable for the development of the human vocation, such as "the right to act according to a sound norm of conscience and to safeguard . . . privacy, and rightful freedom also in matters of religion."27
1908 Second, the common good requires the social well-being and development of the group itself. Development is the epitome of all social duties. Certainly, it is the proper function of authority to arbitrate, in the name of the common good, between various particular interests; but it should make accessible to each what is needed to lead a truly human life: food, clothing, health, work, education and culture, suitable information, the right to establish a family, and so on.28
1909 Finally, the common good requires peace, that is, the stability and security of a just order. It presupposes that authority should ensure by morally acceptable means the security of society and its members. It is the basis of the right to legitimate personal and collective defense.
1910 Each human community possesses a common good which permits it to be recognized as such; it is in the political community that its most complete realization is found. It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society, its citizens, and intermediate bodies.
1911 Human interdependence is increasing and gradually spreading throughout the world. The unity of the human family, embracing people who enjoy equal natural dignity, implies a universal common good. This good calls for an organization of the community of nations able to "provide for the different needs of men; this will involve the sphere of social life to which belong questions of food, hygiene, education, . . . and certain situations arising here and there, as for example . . . alleviating the miseries of refugees dispersed throughout the world, and assisting migrants and their families."29
1912 The common good is always oriented towards the progress of persons: "The order of things must be subordinate to the order of persons, and not the other way around."30 This order is founded on truth, built up in justice, and animated by love. |
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: Sept 17 2014 at 6:21am | IP Logged
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So how does one get her husband on board? My dh goes back and forth on this topic. He thinks it's fine to have a well stocked pantry, but he doesn't think we need to save large quantities of food in buckets or anything like that. He feels like this is a topic that the priests would talk about and maybe even include in their homilies if it was something we should really be doing.
On the other hand, he's all about spiritual preparedness. He wants the children to be rock solid in their faith, willing even to die for it if necessary. I agree but I also feel better knowing we are prepared for emergencies with food, water, etc.
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MarilynW
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| Posted: Sept 17 2014 at 6:33am | IP Logged
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Becky Parker wrote:
So how does one get her husband on board? My dh goes back and forth on this topic. He thinks it's fine to have a well stocked pantry, but he doesn't think we need to save large quantities of food in buckets or anything like that. He feels like this is a topic that the priests would talk about and maybe even include in their homilies if it was something we should really be doing.
On the other hand, he's all about spiritual preparedness. He wants the children to be rock solid in their faith, willing even to die for it if necessary. I agree but I also feel better knowing we are prepared for emergencies with food, water, etc. |
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Becky - I could have written your post verbatim. Our dh are very similar.
Right now I just seek the intercession of Saint Joseph that he will guide my dh. And I try to do what is in my power to do.
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MarilynW
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Jodie - thank you for the Catechism information. Much to think about.
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MarilynW
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Just wanted to bring up ebola preparedness. With the recent CDC publications - this is in the news a lot. Do you do anything special?
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millermom1110
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I agree that the first step (if nothing else, it makes it all a little less overwhelming), is to consider what your greatest/most likely risk is.
For our family, that means being stuck in a blizzard. Either at home with no utilities with sub-zero temperatures (this happened when I was little...spent 4 days huddled around my grandparent's wood stove), or on the side of the road stuck in a ditch waiting for a potentially very long time for help. So I have things like extra blankets, gloves, socks, paper towels, water, food, and a wing stove with fuel stored under one of the bench seats of our van. I add diapers, wipes, and formula/baby food when we have an infant. (I do nurse our babies, but you never know how extreme stress could impact your milk supply. So the formula is a Plan B). Plus, of course, the first aid kit.
We invested in a used generator to run our pellet stove if need be. (side note: pellet stoves are super cheap and easy to install yourself. So if you found a great deal on a floor model, or a used one from Craiglist, it is a comfort having an alternative heat source. We'd actually prefer a wood stove, but the installation is much more involved and incredibly expensive. When we move into our "forever home", we'd be more likely to make that investment). The generator is actually large enough to run most of our major appliances. Great deal off of craigslist, otherwise it never would have fit into our budget. DH has guns for hunting. I've personally never shot a gun and don't feel particularly inclined to, but I do feel safe that they're here and we can defend ourselves if the need ever arose. I try to keep the pantry stocked with at least a couple of week's worth of food, plus the meat in our freezer from the cow and pig we have butchered every year. Hopefully the generator would keep the freezer functional so we wouldn't lose all that.
Whenever I go shopping, I usually just buy a few extra bags of rice, or beans, or bandaids (or whatever) that we store in a spare closet. I wouldn't say "prepping" is a huge part of our lives. It's just something we do sort of in the background. Earlier this Spring, DH's hours were cut almost in half for a time. We really relied on what we had stored up to make do and not need to use any credit cards. I was really thankful that we had prepared. I suppose "tight financial times" is our other most likely risk to prep for. 
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ekbell
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Losing electricity is a pretty common side effect of most disasters (even tiny ones, a number of leafy tree branches downed power lines in our city recently due to an early heavy snowfall) so preparing for power loss is always a good idea.
Preparing for the most likely local emergencies is also a good idea (in our area that would be floods and compromised air quality due to forest fires - we're not close enough to worry about the fires themselves but we're definitely in the smoke path- late summer was really bad this year -one niece suffered several asthmatic attacks)
Beyond that, well.... I have an app from our local emergency service set up on my ipod so that we'll be less likely to be caught out but as there is no way I could begin to be prepared for everything I find it's best not to fret.
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JodieLyn
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We have a wood stove and the installation wasn't a major deal. It may cost more for the stove (I don't know never priced pellet stoves) but we got a close quarters wood stove.. we laid down a heavy hearth pad for it to go on and put the stove pipe through the ceiling/roof. Nothing to do for the walls or anything else. So I'd price it and see what you find. If you're being told you need all kinds of hearths and fire proofed walls and such.. check the specs on the wood stoves.. they give clearances and such. My wood stove is less than 2 feet from the wall and bookcases on both sides of it too and nothing has ever scorched.. even when I overheated the stove cause I was cold 
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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millermom1110
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JodieLyn wrote:
| We have a wood stove and the installation wasn't a major deal. It may cost more for the stove (I don't know never priced pellet stoves) but we got a close quarters wood stove.. we laid down a heavy hearth pad for it to go on and put the stove pipe through the ceiling/roof. Nothing to do for the walls or anything else. So I'd price it and see what you find. If you're being told you need all kinds of hearths and fire proofed walls and such.. check the specs on the wood stoves.. they give clearances and such. My wood stove is less than 2 feet from the wall and bookcases on both sides of it too and nothing has ever scorched.. even when I overheated the stove cause I was cold |
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We had quotes from 3 different places and it was going to run us about $5,000 just for installation. The actual stove was only going to cost around $1,700. Maybe it's regional? I'm not sure. We already had a hearth and they didn't say anything about needing fire proofed walls. Just the chimney materials and labor was going to cost that much. It was so disappointing!
Oh, it could have had something to do with the type of installation we would have needed. We have a 2 story house, it would have had to go out through the wall, then up quite a ways in order to have the appropriate clearance.
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JodieLyn
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wow. It was 14 yrs ago but ours was only about $3000 for the stove and chimney pipe and hearthpad and installation, single story but no previous equpiment (so had to cut the holes into the roof). The labor part was only $500.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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Martha
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guitarnan wrote:
| Any suggestions for mint-averse people? I have one child who won't touch mint. |
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I second this!!! Mint makes me throw up. Seriously. And EVERYTHING is mint flavored or scented. 
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Martha
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For us the biggest issues that impede us are:
Cost effective
Space
I do to think it's a lack of faith to be prepared to feed and provide for our kids. This is just an extension of that to our minds.
We stock the van with water, snacks, and diapers in case there's a wreck in winter.
We make sure the closet shelter is clear during tornado season.
And we'd like to not grocery shop paycheck to paycheck or only buy needed items like medications until we need them.
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guitarnan
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I think medications are a real challenge. Today's computer-counting prescription management systems make it almost impossible to obtain an advance supply of meds. I have no idea what we'll do if a disaster strikes and we can't get Dancing Daughter's asthma meds or my husband's required meds. Our insurance provider (military) monitors prescriptions closely; there's no way we could stockpile anything.
If anyone has had success in working with their health insurance providers to get an extra supply of required meds to put aside for emergency purposes, I'd love to know how you managed it. Maybe I'm not using the right keywords.
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Martha
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guitarnan wrote:
I think medications are a real challenge. Today's computer-counting prescription management systems make it almost impossible to obtain an advance supply of meds. I have no idea what we'll do if a disaster strikes and we can't get Dancing Daughter's asthma meds or my husband's required meds. Our insurance provider (military) monitors prescriptions closely; there's no way we could stockpile anything.
If anyone has had success in working with their health insurance providers to get an extra supply of required meds to put aside for emergency purposes, I'd love to know how you managed it. Maybe I'm not using the right keywords. |
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Well we don't have insurance, so we have to order ours from Canada. EXACT same insulin bottle state side is $210 for us and with shipping it's less than $50 from Canada!  considering he goes through a bottle a week to week and a half, yeah, I sing the Canadian anthem when I check the mail when we are waiting for a shipment.
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MarilynW
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guitarnan wrote:
I think medications are a real challenge. Today's computer-counting prescription management systems make it almost impossible to obtain an advance supply of meds. I have no idea what we'll do if a disaster strikes and we can't get Dancing Daughter's asthma meds or my husband's required meds. Our insurance provider (military) monitors prescriptions closely; there's no way we could stockpile anything.
If anyone has had success in working with their health insurance providers to get an extra supply of required meds to put aside for emergency purposes, I'd love to know how you managed it. Maybe I'm not using the right keywords. |
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Thanks for making me think of this Nancy. I have a couple that need inhalers.
We don't have medicine that has to be taken every day - inhalers are when needed as is the nebulizer, nasal sprays etc. If you do not take the meds every day - can you renew them monthly and store them?
What about the 90 day supply option? I think that with our insurance you can order 90 days by mail?
On a slightly different note - I am reading 2 very good books - Herbal Antivirals and Herbal Antibacterials - and taking notes. Elderberry is high on my list. As is ginger.
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MarilynW
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A wood stove is my total dream. But VERY expensive to install even though we have a fireplace and chimney. We too might do this in our "forever house" or as my 5 year old calls it my "grandma house"!!!
I am terrified of being cold. After last year's awful winter - I am trying to figure out warmth. I am trying to convince dh to let us have our chimney serviced just in case. He is worried about fires because a couple of our kids have breathing problems with smoke.
Do you have a lot of smoke with a woodstove?
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guitarnan
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Thanks for your suggestions, Marilyn! I think we can mail order at least her daily meds, and maybe my husband can, too (different insurance providers are involved).
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Servant2theKing
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Marilyn, I recently purchased Herbal Antivirals and Herbal Antibacterials, after being very impressed with the first book, which I'd borrowed from our local library. Nutritional Healing has always been my go to resource when seeking alternatives to pharmaceuticals, but the two books you mentioned offer an even greater wealth of information. The author seems a little "out there" in some respects, especially if you visit his website, but the information he shares in both books is incredibly well researched and I especially appreciate that he continually offers the scientific basis for his recommendations, as well as tips on where to find many beneficial herbs and how to make many of your own herbal remedies. I'm slowly building a supply of herbal and homeopathic remedies for regular use and in case of emergencies.
For those who rely on pharmaceutical medications, it might be worthwhile to simply ask your physician to recommend how you might build up an emergency supply of prescription medications needed by members of your family. I know some insurance companies allow early refills, sometimes referred to as a "vacation fill". You might try getting an early fill a few times, before your normal refill is due, and bank the extra. Some pharmacies, such as Walmart, have an extensive list of prescriptions available at $4 for 30 day/$10 for 90 day. Your doctor might be willing to prescribe specifically for an emergency supply so you could get an affordable discount prescription. Before compiling this post, I wasn't aware that both medications I currently take are available at such a discount ~ I can now save a considerable amount on upcoming refills and have more $$$ in the budget for other necessities.
Jodie, I appreciate your quotes from the CCC. When I mentioned I wasn't sure whether I could take the life of another person, I meant I wasn't sure whether I would actually be capable of doing so, should such a situation arise. Only the good Lord knows how we might respond in desperate times and it's certainly helpful to know what the Church teaches as morally acceptable. Thank you again for sharing that information.
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JodieLyn
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Servant2theKing wrote:
Jodie, I appreciate your quotes from the CCC. When I mentioned I wasn't sure whether I could take the life of another person, I meant I wasn't sure whether I would actually be capable of doing so, should such a situation arise. Only the good Lord knows how we might respond in desperate times and it's certainly helpful to know what the Church teaches as morally acceptable. Thank you again for sharing that information. |
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It was as much for me as for sharing. I had no idea about some of that. I'm still working through the "common good" and what that may mean in different situations.
And I totally get not being sure if you could wield lethal force at need. If you don't think you can, I'd go for the non-lethal options. It really is much better to have something you won't hesitate to use.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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4Real Forums : Our Lady's Loom, Larder, and Laundry
Topic: General Preparedness
