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SallyT
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I am appreciating this thread, too, in light of struggles we're having with our 11-year-old son. Getting my husband on board with levying clear consequences and following through, rather than just butting heads and yelling, has been something of a . . . process, shall we say. He read this thread last night, was impressed by all the good suggestions, and now we're making a game plan together.
Because, man. You don't want these conflicts to set the tone for your entire household, but they so quickly can.
This is my insomnia kid, as some of you might remember from a thread of several months ago -- I think at the time someone (probably Servant!) recommended that Calms Forte remedy, and I had forgotten about it. I might try having him take it as we move into the evening, which is a rough time (dinner, especially) even without the rebound effect from any meds.
I love what Angie said about not babysitting, but parenting a young male. The challenge, it seems to me, is all about helping him to a good, strong, mature manhood -- at least as much as it is about getting through the day. The latter seems so urgent so much of the time, but the former is the goal not to lose sight of.
Sally
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Kathryn
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Having significant struggle this AM. He and DD 6 were "playing" and all I heard was her screaming bloody murder (she is a bit dramatic but you know when it's play and not and she really did sound hurt) from the shower. By the time I got out, DD 15 was in there and DD 6 was saying he was sitting on her head and she couldn't breath. He says they were playing (rough housing I presume) and she pushed him into my dresser anyway. Well, she prob. did but I doubt a 40# 6 yr old girl could "hurt" a 13 yr old 85# boy! I told him that was "NOT AN APPROPRIATE WAY TO PLAY!!" He goes off whining and crying b/c she wasn't really hurt, why did he get in trouble, why didn't she get in trouble. He goes to DD 6 and says "you weren't really even hurt so now I got in trouble" and then goes to his room to continue crying on his bed to himself about how she wasn't hurt, she pushed him anyway (I hear this from the hall). I remember Jodie saying something about not allowing this negative self-talk so made him come out of his room and said again, NO...HE was wrong! He's twice her size AND a boy!
Then he starts throwing a fit b/c DD 15 threw his clothes from the hall into his room so he threw them back in her room. I told him they were HIS clothes. If they were clean, to the drawer, dirty to the laundry. He takes (about 6 pcs) and just throws them in the drawer. I KNOW he had 2 things he wore yesterday in there that I KNOW are dirty. So I make him go through each pc one by one...clean or dirty? And put in appropriate place. By the time we get to the last pc he is a basket case...it's all HER fault for throwing them in his room in the first place. ???? NO...it's YOUR fault for having them in the hall!! ???
I finally sent him out back to run laps and clean the top of the chicken coop. Hoping this will calm him (and me). I know people have posted before but how do you address a child that thinks they're never in the wrong and it's always someone else's fault. And how to deal with how he and DD 6 relate? That's a million dollar question but those two seem to always be bickering and honestly it's b/c HE, at 13, doesn't grasp the idea that she's 1/2 his age and 1/2 his size! I've tried to instill the idea that he's bigger and should help care for her but he's not buying that.
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Kathryn in TX
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jawgee
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I have a child who is "never in the wrong," too.
I don't know. We're reading The Young Peacemaker right now, and the last chapter was about choices and consequences. (When you make a bad choice, you earn a consequence, and it is your parents' responsibility to give you that consequence so that you can learn to make better choices.)
I can't say whether it is making a difference. My girls (5 and 4) seem to implement the message from the book better than my boys (8 and 12). We've had a very difficult morning here, too.
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SallyT
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Kathryn --
My 10- and 11-year-olds get into it all the time. All. The. Time. I try not to play the blame game, because it's a losing proposition. The immature mind is always going to believe it's someone else's fault, no matter what I say, and the more I try to push for some admission of guilt, the harder that mind pushes back.
So I just don't. Or, I try not to. Instead, I try to concentrate on the behavior. For example: regardless of who started what, pushing is inappropriate (6yo) AND sitting on someone's head is inappropriate (13-year-old). Furthermore, physical aggression to someone smaller than you is never okay and can be dangerous, regardless (13-year-old). In that event, I would probably levy some kind of consequence on both people involved, because 9 times out of 10, both people really are responsible for the escalation of behaviors.
Generally my consequence is to isolate both of them for a period of time. I don't get *so* much of the self-pity party (though there's always that potential, as Jodie has so wisely pointed out!), because it's both of them, and because I'm framing it as a cooling-off period rather than a punishment so much. And honestly, usually my main motivation is to have ten minutes' peace so that *I* can cool off and think more clearly, rather than just reacting to noise that drives me crazy.
Once the consequence is served, I might pull the older child aside for a conference. This is when -- if it's my 11-year-old -- I re-stress the need for self-control, which is a constant issue with him, and the need to bear in mind his own physical strength, that even when he thinks he's playing, he can really hurt another person. I'm not talking fault. I'm talking issues that together we've identified ("Yes, it's hard sometimes to stop your impulses." "You know, you're a lot stronger than you think you are." -- both things he can agree with, because I haven't said, "You're the problem here.").
Here is when I might levy some heavier consequence, if in my ten minutes' break I've decided that it's appropriate. Usually it's got to do with video-game time, which is what hurts -- I might remove apps from his kindle and let him earn them back one by one. Generally I really only do this when there's been some mouthing off to me as well. Impulse control we're working on; disrespect is right out and is dealt with swiftly.
I also pick my battles pretty carefully. If we've just been through the wringer over one thing, I tend to turn a blind eye to . . . say, laundry. So my kids' laundry situation is often chaotic, especially my boys', and this is not un-problematic, but if it's a choice between that and interpersonal chaos, I'll take the laundry chaos. When everyone's upset already, relatively little things can tend to become big disciplinary issues fast. My instinct would be to wait until the other stuff dies down, *then,* when it's calm, deal with the laundry (or whatever -- we have no shortage of those issues around here!).
So, I say this as someone who struggles daily with dynamics among my children and with the role one child, especially, plays in those dynamics. I'm not offering what I do as any kind of panacea, because it isn't. And I don't always remember to do it. We have problems here for sure. But I do think that focusing on whose fault something is, and trying to get that person to admit fault, is a losing proposition. Hopefully when that person goes to examine his conscience before confession, some of these things will return to him and he can deal with them there (and boy, do I have to resist my own impulse to *lean* on the nightly examination of conscience! Oh how tempting it is to ask, "Did I hurt anyone with my hands or my words?" and then glare significantly around the room at various characters!).
But beyond that . . . I think the more helpful path is simply to focus on behaviors as you witness them, or can discern what's happened by asking everyone involved for their version of the story. If the 6-year-old says he sat on her head, you can ask him, "Did you sit on her head?" He may want to go off on the fact that she "provoked" him, but you just say, "Answer me yes or no, did you sit on her head?"
Likewise you can ask the 6-year-old if she pushed him -- even given the size difference, nobody should be pushing another person. I would not automatically cast her as the innocent victim, even if obviously he could pulverize her. We have that kind of girl-boy dynamic here, though the ages are much closer, and I've seen in my own daughter that it's not that good for her character for me always to assume her innocence or victim status! Girls are good at playing that for all it's worth. Maybe yours doesn't, but mine sure does, if I let her. And it doesn't help things with the boy if Mom is continually rushing to the girl's defense.
Again, deflect the "who started it" business -- just push for a yes or no answer. Then deal with the yes or no answers to each question. Yes he sat on her? Consequence. Yes she pushed him? Consequence. And go from there.
Again, I don't have perfect children to show for my parenting wisdom! But these things do help, when I'm self-possessed enough to do them.
Hang in there. I hate those days when it all spirals out of control.
Sally
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Angie Mc
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Whoaaaaaaa! There is one point and one point only that is the priority here and that is the safety of your 6 year old daughter.
In my mind, your son has immediately and until further notice lost the privilege of being with the women in his family until he has learned how to respect and protect all of them. He has lost all privileges that are connected to what he receives from them (if they cook for him he gets no food, if they wash his laundry his clothes go dirty, if they play with him then he has no one to play with.)
You and your husband need to reconnect immediately and set limits that include a "men never hit women" stance (Here's some frank language from Matt Walsh on this topic, A list of situations where it is OK for a man to hit a woman.
Your son is trying to run your home. He fluctuates between being a bully and being a victim. He needs to be responsible and held accountable. He needs to be clear that your husband is the head of your home, not him. He needs to know that you are his mother who is to be honored and respected at all times. All times.
Do you have local support? Good men who can help? Men who can be examples of good behavior and expectations? Good men who are willing to tell him the truth? If so, ask them for help. Ask them to have your son to their home for a night, or to go fishing, or to do landscaping, or to play baseball (example of what my sons have done with men outside of their father.) Tell these men the truth about your son's behaviors so that THEY can tell him that they are wrong. Ask if you can call their family in time of need for help. Your son needs to know that he cannot hold you and his sisters captive without answering to other men about it.
If you don't have men like this in your life, go find them. You can go to a priest, deacon, male youth minister, male therapist, coach, teacher, etc. Young men need men and lots of them in their lives.
Kathryn, please get some local support. Your son needs it. And you and your girls need to know that they are safe and respected in their home.
Love,
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Angie Mc
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i was cross-posting with Sally and do exactly as she is saying under regular circumstances. These skills are critical to dealing with daily struggles.
I was looking at the bigger picture...
There is a pattern of this son behaving poorly.
He is 13.
There is a large discrepancy in age between the two children - 7 years.
There is a gender difference.
This doesn't exclude or diminish the details of how to get both sides of the story, hand out consequences, etc. in the moment. It takes both the big picture and the daily details to transform a difficult situation.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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JodieLyn
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Yes, totally what Sally and Angie have said.
And just so you know. That whole discussing with boys in that age range about their physical strength is so totally normal. And it's hard too. They're used to being able to rough house and then they've gotten so much bigger they find that they can't do it without hurting someone. They're feeling punished for something that changed on them, not that they're doing something new (wrong). So some simple understanding that they're losing that part of being a child is helpful.
BUT. I have a daughter from the time she figured it out, simply knows how to provoke just about anybody. So I also try to never assume that the younger child was NOT "asking for it". I have one that was, and knew she was, and was still doing it on purpose.  So I try and always deal with BOTH of the kids.
AND I've also started pointing out to the older child involved (since I do typically start with the older child) that the more they want to stand around and argue with me the less time I have for dealing with the other person involved. Basically, that by not doing their job or acting as they know they should, they're keeping me from dealing with the other person, and yep usually they're trying to tell me how "you never make them do _____" well if I'm dealing with getting you to do your part, I'm not getting to them, am I. 
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JodieLyn
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Oh one more thing.. we have one simple rule for roughhousing. If both/all people involved are not having fun, it is no longer a game and it stops.
That helps them learn that they can roughhouse but there is a limit and just because they think they're playing doesn't give them an excuse to continue past the point the other wants to.
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Kathryn
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JodieLyn wrote:
BUT. I have a daughter from the time she figured it out, simply knows how to provoke just about anybody. So I also try to never assume that the younger child was NOT "asking for it". I have one that was, and knew she was, and was still doing it on purpose. So I try and always deal with BOTH of the kids.
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Is this your town crier, Jodie? B/c that's exactly what I've started to call my 6 yo. I def agree that she knows how to push buttons and push them she does. She also likes to rough house just as much as him but then when he dishes it back, the reminder that she's 1/2 his size and 1/2 his age is an eye-opener...to them both!
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Kathryn
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Angie Mc wrote:
If you don't have men like this in your life, go find them. You can go to a priest, deacon, male youth minister, male therapist, coach, teacher, etc. Young men need men and lots of them in their lives.
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I 100% agree and while his dad is a great father, he's not a force to be reckoned with...make sense? We have an uncle but he lives 6+ hours away and he is a former police officer. Now HE is a force to be reckoned with! Alan has spent time with him and he has put him in his place but obviously distance limits the interactions. And honestly, even sometimes if I say something to the uncle, I'll get "well, he is a boy!" So, then I think, well, am I overreacting? My brother was 9 yr older. My father was absent from age 3 until my mom remarried when I was 15 so I didn't have a strong father figure. This is my only son. My stepdad who was a strong man died 4 years ago. DH's dad, just turned 80, is really uninvolved and kind of passive like my DH. DH has 5 sisters and only 1 brother (the uncle is a sister's hubby). The brother is only one that lives local and he as well as put Alan in his place BUT he's in his mid 50s and not such great health anymore so limited there. This has been the problem. Not really any strong, consistent male models...it's been me. And I'm a force to be reckoned with...but I'm a mom and this is getting too much for me with a teen boy. Eventually he will be bigger than me and I've never been scared or fearful of him in that sense but he needs to learn boundaries and appropriate behavior. So, finding local, consistent, male mentors that I would trust...yeh, not an easy task. I'm.so.tired.of.this.daily.struggle! I feel like I'm at the end of my rope and the knot is unraveling!
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Kathryn in TX
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Kathryn
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JodieLyn wrote:
Oh one more thing.. we have one simple rule for roughhousing. If both/all people involved are not having fun, it is no longer a game and it stops.
That helps them learn that they can roughhouse but there is a limit and just because they think they're playing doesn't give them an excuse to continue past the point the other wants to. |
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Excellent advice...I will sit them down in a bit and remind them of this and make sure they understand now that we've moved past the heat of the moment.
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Kathryn in TX
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Kathryn
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And Sally...great advice too. Soo much that I won't quote and reply to each piece but so much of it is "spot on".
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Kathryn in TX
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ETA from above Angie about male models...DS is involved in Scouts and we try to have him attend as many functions as possible as we trust most of the dads there. DH usu attends most of the outings as well unless it's like a merit badge college or something.
He did start attending youth group at our church last Fall and seems to have a great youth minister although very, very young and a very large middle school group (200+ kids). He did attend last week's district wide Middle School rally and only 7 youth from our parish (with 200+ active kids) attended. ;-( At any rate, I believe DS thoroughly enjoyed it. They have monthly service activities as well that Alan has attended.
Just after re-reading didn't want it to sound like we've done nothing or he doesn't have any other influences.
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Kathryn in TX
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JodieLyn
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Nope, she's a tough thing.. she just likes the reactions so she'll push and poke verbally (and she's very good at knowing what to say and how to say it)until the other person is driven to a physical reaction.. and usually she manages to run away and escape. It's really a game to her, no malice, she just likes to make people react not necessarily get them in trouble (no we don't condone this but we've seen it enough to know what she's doing).
My town crier is the one that if it occurs to him it comes out his mouth. And he loves to find you and talk.. and talk.. and talk. But if you pay attention you can hear the most interesting things. Like I knew he had a scratch on his face from the cat. His older sister just asked (while I was typing this) about it and I heard that another child *tossed* the cat to him and that's how he got scratched.     I did let them know not to toss the cat. 
For tattletale type of town crier. I just generally either wait and speak to the child in question when the one who tattled isn't around (so they don't get the power rush of getting someone in trouble) or depending on the circumstances I listen and go to help a dangerous situation. In that case they're taught that they're helping everyone, not getting people in trouble. (and learning to distinguish between the two) Again, if there's trouble, I try and speak to that child separately from the others.
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Oh, and baseball does start soon too!! Aside from more adult men, I really think DS needs more peers. He really one has 1 good friend that he's known since birth and he made a good friend at one of his homeschool classes but they live 45 min away.
Overall, he's friendly and gets along with peers during a limited class time but b/c he doesn't always understand social cues? and such, I wonder if he's not a bit "annoying" to them just like here at home.
Ok...I think I'm done serial posting. Thanks for being here. Sometimes I really do feel so at my wit's end.
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JodieLyn
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Kathryn, also speak to your Scout Masters. When they know the boys need direction or teaching in certain areas they can work it into different things. We had a great police officer come in for the Crime Prevention merit badge and really address the "men don't hit girls" thing as part of that.
Also, you can choose to address this with the Scout law.
A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, reverant.
hmm I think my son was about 12 or 13 and I found good definitions of each of those attributes and put them up on the wall. And then we might address any behavior (oh good ones too) as does it meet one of those words on how a scout should be.
Were you being kind to your sister? were you being obedient to your mother? were you being helpful? friendly?
Also, I don't know if you do read alouds but perhaps starting some with good models of boy chivalry. Maybe Louise May Alcott?
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JodieLyn
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Oh and don't forget the Catholic angle (though don't hit them with all of it at once or he'll just block you out) but St. George is the patron saint of the Boy Scouts. And he's often used for teaching about Chivalry. But also other saints would probably be good for this.
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Oh and remember boys WANT to be men. Address a lot of this as "now that you're becoming a man". Look at how you're growing you're going to be man sized before we know it. You're developing your strength as you become a man and you need to remember that and treat other more gently than you have in the past. etc.
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Kathryn
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JodieLyn wrote:
Kathryn, also speak to your Scout Masters. When they know the boys need direction or teaching in certain areas they can work it into different things. We had a great police officer come in for the Crime Prevention merit badge and really address the "men don't hit girls" thing as part of that.
Also, you can choose to address this with the Scout law.
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RE Scout oath...Oh yes, I've used that line...don't always remember.  DD 6 has been known to use that line on him too.
He is working on the personal fitness merit badge on Sun. I think I'll try and find out who is teaching that and bring it up to talk about their growing, changing bodies and strength and appropriate ways to use new, increased strength.
Last, we did have a dear neighbor in our old neighborhood where Alan loved to watch ball games with him. His dd now runs on high school track and they've invited Alan to go with them to watch her when those start here in the next wk or so. Now, hopefully that will work out with our schedules.
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pumpkinmom
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Taking notes as I finally read through this post!
I had something to add about the scouts and male mentors. This may just be something with our group, but we sometimes have to ask for the adult leaders and other dads to actually confront ds when necessary. Almost all the dads in our group won't say something to a kid that isn't their own (unless it needs immediate attention). People in our area take on a mother bear attitude and their kid does nothing wrong and you better not say anything to him or me about it. Dh and I don't believe this and will call out the other kids as needed at events. Some parents have received unkind words from these "mother bears" and know don't say anything. We are always clear that if something needs to be said to our children, I expect them to do it. So, in short, make sure the "leaders" know they need to lead. I even let them know of problem areas so that they can look for those and really be on the ball about saying something.
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Impulsiveness, sneaking.adhd.UPDATE..good
