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Katie
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The more detailed Meyers-Briggs tests do take into account how strongly you lean between the poles of Extrovert and Introvert, for example, so you get a much more accurate picture. I am a strong E, but dh hovers between an I and an E. This holds true for the other traits, too. The detailed analyses then take the strength of the traits into account, and even discuss being "on the cusp".
I'm sure anyone interested could find a more detialed Meyers-Briggs online.
Also, dh, who has taken many of these tests over the years, feels that as he's grown older he has shifted in a couple of areas. I seem to stay exactly the same, though!
Edited to add: I came out an ENTP on this mothering test, but on a full-blown test I am a definite ESFJ, and the descriptions always uncannily fit me to a "T". Perhaps I mother differently than I do other things?
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Mother of 5 in South America. No 6 due in April.
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JennGM
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WJFR wrote:
JennGM wrote:
| I think all these tests can be great tools to know oneself...as long as it's not too much navel gazing. |
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When's it too much?  When you fill out questionnaires for everyone in your family? At 1 am? 
Seriously, the question on my mind is: Given that I end up with a particular profile, how much am I supposed to work on the weak parts as opposed to developing the strong parts? Any ideas on what the Church says about this, Jenn or anyone else? Is the ideal to: mortify preferences, balance them out by consciously bringing in the other aspect, or make them into something beautiful for God? Or a combination? |
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Well, I basically want to have a combo mothering style temperament of Elizabeth, Lissa, Alice, MacBeth, Willa...I'll stop there. The list is too long.
Seriously though, Willa, I'm not quite sure of the answer offhand. What defines "weak parts"? Are these failings on your end because of something you did, omission, or just not in your character?
Weak example, but if my temperament does not like crowds, roller coasters  and public speaking, that's not a failing on my part, just an area where God did not endow me with a blessing. But again, that's a weak example. I know much of your questioning comes from how to be a good wife and mother and teach my children to the best of my ability. And where does "best of my ability" stop or start? And what areas can I "pump up" to increase my "best of ability"?
It makes me nervous, Willa, that you are asking the question, because I look to you for your experience and guidance! I was hoping you had the answers by now.
On the question of what is too much navel gazing, I remember reading Archbishop Sheen talking about the ego and I, how different it is to go to a psychiatrist vs. confession. At a Psych we revel in our deficiencies and inadequacies. And don't work on uprooting them. In confession we bare in humility these deficiencies and strive to root them out.
I guess in a simple way, by the fruits of what you DO you will know. Could doing this be tagged as scrupulosity? Too much introspection? Is it crippling us in our daily tasks?
Dh and I were just conversing about something similar. Too much introspection for our temperaments seem to paralyze us, take us into a downward spiral of self-pity and sometimes depression. We come up short, and can see the long list of failed attempts at accepting grace in our lives. And instead of making this self-examination a moment of grace in being confident in God's mercy and Love to stir us on to fight more, we fall into the devil's trap. We are paralyzed by regret and disappointments. Doesn't "Screwtape Letters" have something on this?
But that's how we are. I can spend so much time on this study that DOING things suffers. And I have to remember little things such as I'm not an extrovert, so immersing myself and doing extrovert activities isn't going to change me.
In that Temperament that God Gave You thread I quoted from The Theology of Christian Perfection by Royo and Aumann, but I think I'll quote more fully to see the Church's angle on this: There is a diversity of opinion among psychologists concerning the definition and classification of temperament. For our purposes we may define temperament as the pattern of inclinations which proceed from the physiological constitution of the individual. It is a dynamic factor which takes into account the manner in which the individual organic structure will react to stimuli of various kinds. Since it is rooted in the physiological structure, temperament is something innate and hereditary; it is that element of personality which makes the personality unique, since individuality is rooted in matter, and temperament is the natural inclination of the somatic structure. It is, therefore, something permanent and admits of only secondary modification; one's temperament can never be totally destroyed without destroying the individual. The axiom, "grace does not destroy nature but perfects it," has it most obvious application in the area of temperament.
The classification of the temperament is nothing more than a handy framework which has been constructed according to the predominant characteristics of various physiological constitutions. It is by no means exclusive or definitive, nor does it signify that there are "pure"
temperaments. As a matter of face, individual persons generally manifest a combination of the characteristics of several temperaments. Whenever there are several elements combined in any composite, however, one or another will usually predominate at any given time, and in the matter of temperament we find that, although persons are usually a composite of many characteristics, one or another characteristic will specify the temperament. I came across two quotes this week that are good reminders for me:
Three enemies of personal peace:
regret over yesterday's mistakes
anxiety over tomorrow's problems
and ingratitude for today's blessings.
William Arthur Ward And from St. Francis de Sales:
The past must be abandoned to God's mercy
the present to our fidelity
and the future to divine providence.
Sorry so long a post. And I really didn't answer...just shot back my own thoughts that I'm rolling over in my mind!
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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Willa
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JennGM wrote:
Seriously though, Willa, I'm not quite sure of the answer offhand. What defines "weak parts"? Are these failings on your end because of something you did, omission, or just not in your character?
It makes me nervous, Willa, that you are asking the question, because I look to you for your experience and guidance! I was hoping you had the answers by now.
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Being an INFP/INTP, whenever I start feeling like I have the answers, I know it's time to start moving "higher up and further in"! I guess that is the main thing that attracts me to the "Real Learning" concept -- there's always something more to learn, always room for improvement. Socrates said wisdom lies in knowing you are not wise....  . I guess that's the "answer" I have such as it is.
I loved those quotes, Jenn, and thanks for the answers and reflective questions!
You know, I am thinking that possibly we are given our diverse characteristics in order to balance each other and help the bigger community. We don't quite need to be complete and "perfect" in ourselves. The corollary to John Donne's "any man's death diminishes me" is that any one's devout life in the Church increases me.
I see that on this forum where we share ideas and perspectives and successes and thus balance each other out. I see that in the family too -- one character trait complements another one or fills in a lack or refines a weakness.
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Willa
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Christine
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Willa,
It must be something about INTP personalities that make us analyze every child and family member. When a friend loaned me The Temperament God Gave You, I had everyone's primary temperament figured out within the first 24 hours. My husband is melancholic, I am choleric, our children are: sanguine, melancholic/choleric, choleric/sanguine, and I suspect our two youngest may be choleric.
Jenn,
I always learn so much from your posts.
JennGM wrote:
On the question of what is too much navel gazing, I remember reading Archbishop Sheen talking about the ego and I, how different it is to go to a psychiatrist vs. confession. At a Psych we revel in our deficiencies and inadequacies. And don't work on uprooting them. In confession we bare in humility these deficiencies and strive to root them out.
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Perhaps, this is also how you can determine too much introspection. Are you simply focusing on who you are? Or are you using what you have learned to try and become a better person? Are you aware of your inherent weaknesses and do you take steps to overcome them? Do you go to confession? Do you acknowledge that your strong points are gifts from God and thank Him for them? I am stubborn (or strong-willed according to my husband). Knowing this is part of my temperament helps me to know that I really need to work on being able to let go of my will sometimes and at other times I need to thank God for making me stubborn because at times it has kept me out of trouble. I better stop, before I start gazing at my navel.
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Christine
Mommy to 4 girls, 5 boys, & 2 in God's care
Memories of a Catholic Wife and Mother
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teachingmom
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Katie wrote:
The more detailed Meyers-Briggs tests do take into account how strongly you lean between the poles of Extrovert and Introvert, for example, so you get a much more accurate picture.
. . . .
Also, dh, who has taken many of these tests over the years, feels that as he's grown older he has shifted in a couple of areas. |
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This is an interesting thought, Katie. I took the detailed Meyers-Briggs test years ago in a group setting with a trained test moderator who explained the results. At the time I was either single or newly married. I was a clear extravert.
Now, I bet I would test more on the cusp, or at least more toward the center of the spectrum. I guess I agree with your husband that shifts can occur as we grow older and our life situations change.
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Mama Moon
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Angie Mc wrote:
Thinking a bit more...when I was a child, I was considered "shy." I think that I still needed energy from others but often I was receiving too much negative, unhealthy energy which over-loaded me.
Curious!
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Hi Angie
Your comment on negative energy interests me. Since a child I have been really introvert. There were only a few people that I felt did not drain me. I am still the same. There are even some people whom I can feel in advance will get me down, some just making me tired, others actually making me feel negative as if I have taken up their charge(and they look all the better from having spent a couple of hours with me  ).
Do you think that the few people I feel okay or good with are introverts too, or people who were not looking for a shot of energy?!
Also I think I am seeing the same pattern in my children. There is particularly one of their friends whom they can spend a morning with and seems loads of fun but the result is 2 days of misery for my dds.
P.S. I came out ISTP Give 'Em Their Space - that's me all right!!
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JennGM
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Christine wrote:
| It must be something about INTP personalities that make us analyze every child and family member. When a friend loaned me The Temperament God Gave You, I had everyone's primary temperament figured out within the first 24 hours. |
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I always thought it was melancholic temperament that did that.
I need to take the tests more now because I think I have more self-realization than I did younger. There were things and events in my clouding my judgment and true personality. When you let your guard down things flow much better.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Family in Feast and Feria
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Mari
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Mama Moon wrote:
Angie Mc wrote:
Thinking a bit more...when I was a child, I was considered "shy." I think that I still needed energy from others but often I was receiving too much negative, unhealthy energy which over-loaded me.
Curious!
Love, |
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Hi Angie
Your comment on negative energy interests me. Since a child I have been really introvert. There were only a few people that I felt did not drain me. I am still the same. There are even some people whom I can feel in advance will get me down, some just making me tired, others actually making me feel negative as if I have taken up their charge(and they look all the better from having spent a couple of hours with me ).
Do you think that the few people I feel okay or good with are introverts too, or people who were not looking for a shot of energy?!
Also I think I am seeing the same pattern in my children. There is particularly one of their friends whom they can spend a morning with and seems loads of fun but the result is 2 days of misery for my dds.
P.S. I came out ISTP Give 'Em Their Space - that's me all right!!
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Hey, me too!!!! I'm ISTP and I have the same questions that you do. I am very aware of and affected by other peoples' energies. Maybe one ISTP + another ISTP is the formula we need so as not to be drained! 
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Mari, mother of 2 loving daughters aged 8 and 10
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JennGM
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WJFR wrote:
JennGM wrote:
It makes me nervous, Willa, that you are asking the question, because I look to you for your experience and guidance! I was hoping you had the answers by now.
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Being an INFP/INTP, whenever I start feeling like I have the answers, I know it's time to start moving "higher up and further in"! I guess that is the main thing that attracts me to the "Real Learning" concept -- there's always something more to learn, always room for improvement. Socrates said wisdom lies in knowing you are not wise.... . I guess that's the "answer" I have such as it is. |
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Room for improvement, yes. But I get the feeling that sometimes you think you need to start from scratch, and that's what I mean from making me nervous!
But I agree, that we can never stand still at one place. There is constant growing and discernment.
WJFR wrote:
I loved those quotes, Jenn, and thanks for the answers and reflective questions!
You know, I am thinking that possibly we are given our diverse characteristics in order to balance each other and help the bigger community. We don't quite need to be complete and "perfect" in ourselves. The corollary to John Donne's "any man's death diminishes me" is that any one's devout life in the Church increases me.
I see that on this forum where we share ideas and perspectives and successes and thus balance each other out. I see that in the family too -- one character trait complements another one or fills in a lack or refines a weakness. |
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I completely agree. That's why we have the partner in marriage -- man and woman complement each other...and perfect each other. And with the forum and other good friendships. Well said, as always, Willa.
When I read your writing, I am always in awe at how well you write out these introspections. It helps so much to see just the process of you turning it over in your mind. I really appreciate your contributions. 
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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Willa
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JennGM wrote:
Room for improvement, yes. But I get the feeling that sometimes you think you need to start from scratch, and that's what I mean from making me nervous!
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I had to think about this, Jenn! It really was a new thought to me and, uh, I sort of feel a new blog post coming on, which I will probably end up writing out here! HOW make you nervous? My guess without looking is that you have a J in your temperament and feel comfortable with decision and surety. That is a GOOD thing and relates a bit to my question -- HOW much are we to balance out our temperaments? I am a P who feels more comfortable with open options. I would say I could benefit often from just DECIDING and living with it, but a decisive person could benefit sometimes from keeping the options open a bit. Pondering this made me say what I did about temperaments balancing and perfecting each other, in the heart of the home and in the Body of the Church.
Anyway, that's one reason I like this board -- because there is room for both and like CM said, we can draw out what we need at a certain time from a wide spectrum of approaches and views. We probably are all somewhat aware of our lapses and blind spots and try to find ways to even them out but at the same time we have to develop THROUGH our strengths or BY them, we can't just ignore or deny the traits God gave us. Or, so I am thinking. Perhaps I as a P have to approach decisiveness through a pondering lens while a J person has to ponder through a more active, decisive lens. Hmm.
In one way I think we all DO and HAVE to start from scratch every day. Even if we do the same things today as we did yesterday, it is a new day and a new you -- we have to constantly recommit. Chesterton talks about this -- how God says the equivalent of "DO it again!" every day to the sun since He first created it. It doesn't just happen. He continues actively and decisively to keep us all in existence, every moment -- wonderful thought! And The Psalmist puts it: "Create in me a clean heart, O Lord, and renew a right spirit within me." No coasting, no set patterns that can substitute for effort and continual reconversion. In that way, there's no way to avoid "starting from scratch".
But at the same time, I don't feel I'm starting from scratch at all -- if I set my course for China, say, my course might look different as I transverse the wide Atlantic or round the Horn, but the course is the same throughout. ... the goal is the same. IF I got locked into saying "This is how I sail," and tried to do the same thing around the Horn as I did in the wide open sea, it would be a disaster. It would work AGAINST my longterm goal, not FOR it. So, starting from scratch? No. Not going back to launch, ever. How could I, even if I wanted to ? But revising the methods and logistics according to circumstances. YES! My homeschool couldn't look the same with 7 kids of all ages as it did when I had 1 toddler. It can't look the same with a special needs 6th son as it did with an academically inclined firstborn. The principles have to be broad enough to cover all the eventualities.
Again, as an N and P I probably express it differently and even act it out differently than an S and J would, but I think the general principles are valid across the board even as the specific implementations will vary.
How's that? Did it clarify things a bit? I see better from what you said (if I'm understanding you rightly) how this seeming uncertainty could be distracting and discouraging to a young mom just as too much certainty could be. But the "seeming" uncertainty is just that, it's not fundamental uncertainty. Not in the least. I have never decided I would really rather go to the Antarctic than to China, after all; (whatever the spiritual and educational equivalent of this geographical analogy might be; it is probably best expressed in Elizabeth's book).
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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JennGM
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WJFR wrote:
JennGM wrote:
Room for improvement, yes. But I get the feeling that sometimes you think you need to start from scratch, and that's what I mean from making me nervous!
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I had to think about this, Jenn! It really was a new thought to me and, uh, I sort of feel a new blog post coming on, which I will probably end up writing out here! HOW make you nervous? My guess without looking is that you have a J in your temperament and feel comfortable with decision and surety. That is a GOOD thing and relates a bit to my question -- HOW much are we to balance out our temperaments? I am a P who feels more comfortable with open options. I would say I could benefit often from just DECIDING and living with it, but a decisive person could benefit sometimes from keeping the options open a bit. Pondering this made me say what I did about temperaments balancing and perfecting each other, in the heart of the home and in the Body of the Church. |
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Oh, I love it, Willa! Good point about the J vs P...I don't like open-endness. I understand having to revisit things, because that's life, but I do like to have closure! I appreciate you making the temperament differences with a concrete example!
HOW you make me nervous? I understand it's not the fundamental things that you are rethinking. And the word nervous isn't quite right...just "uneasy." I use these boards to see experiences by other mothers who have made Real Learning work in their family. I'm trying to find where I will "fit" with our learning at home. You were my classical method guru...plus other areas.
Now, not that things have changed drastically...but you're trying something new with unschooling. Classical unschooling to boot. The concept is so awesome to me...but almost uncharted territory. I can TRY to do this on my own, but I do value other people's experiences. Not sure what letter this applies to, but I'm not the adventurous type! I like to see success, read reviews, before I attempt on the unknown.
I guess I would like a "Real Learning Volume II"...seeing how many of you are adapting and changing things as the years move on. You're not making the first volume of Real Learning null and void, but you've gone deeper, have more experience to share.
BTW, I retook the test and I think I have some F in there....Now is it because before I was a crochety old maid and now I'm a wife and mother and more in tune with feelings and actually value feelings? I don't know yet...
WJFR wrote:
Anyway, that's one reason I like this board -- because there is room for both and like CM said, we can draw out what we need at a certain time from a wide spectrum of approaches and views.
We probably are all somewhat aware of our lapses and blind spots and try to find ways to even them out but at the same time we have to develop THROUGH our strengths or BY them, we can't just ignore or deny the traits God gave us. Or, so I am thinking. Perhaps I as a P have to approach decisiveness through a pondering lens while a J person has to ponder through a more active, decisive lens. Hmm. |
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 Yes, I need to have that active lens. Perhaps that's the reason that if I too much pondering without being able to put something in action or have a decision it actually sets me back. I'm "hmmmming" right back. Perhaps it's your temperament (but I think it's a deeper spiritual plain) but although I analyze temperaments, you take and turn them over much more carefully than I. If it's temperament, I'm not capable of doing much more. If it's virtue I'm lacking...I need to look at that.
WJFR wrote:
| In one way I think we all DO and HAVE to start from scratch every day. Even if we do the same things today as we did yesterday, it is a new day and a new you -- we have to constantly recommit. |
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Yes, I understand that way of continual renewal. Coasting can never happen. With learning, husbands, families, prayer...life, constant recommital.
I'm thinking in smaller ways of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." If I had to rethink how I wash dishes, when I'm satisfied with the efficiency and cleanliness already...that seems pointless and fruitless. But tweaking things, like where I organize my cabinets and when I unload the dishwasher, changing the type of detergent...I can handle that kind of reexamination.
Of course, that's a weak point, but in the education realm, there are some aspects before I even begin our endeavour that I'm trying to figure out.
If I decipher my son's learning style (and how I fit in), start our learning paths and it's working for us, I need to make sure I don't change or reexamine just because "everyone else is doing it" or a "new method" comes around. (You are NOT doing that...I'm talking about my personality.)
There is a lot of talk about how one approach works, and other existing methods don't, or bad mouthing the "other ways" when extolling the virtues of a different approach. It gets frustrating for me as the list grows longer and longer of different methods to explore. As you said, my personality wants to figure things out and have a decision!
But in the same token, if I can clearly see it's NOT working for us, I'll need to have the humility to accept the fact, try something else and not look back with regret or cling to it for the sake of stability.
And also, knowing some of my tendencies, I don't think I can handle immersing myself completely all at once to something new. I need to slowly go in, little by little.
WJFR wrote:
But at the same time, I don't feel I'm starting from scratch at all -- if I set my course for China, say, my course might look different as I transverse the wide Atlantic or round the Horn, but the course is the same throughout. ... the goal is the same. IF I got locked into saying "This is how I sail," and tried to do the same thing around the Horn as I did in the wide open sea, it would be a disaster. It would work AGAINST my longterm goal, not FOR it. So, starting from scratch? No. Not going back to launch, ever. How could I, even if I wanted to ? But revising the methods and logistics according to circumstances. YES! My homeschool couldn't look the same with 7 kids of all ages as it did when I had 1 toddler. It can't look the same with a special needs 6th son as it did with an academically inclined firstborn. The principles have to be broad enough to cover all the eventualities.
Again, as an N and P I probably express it differently and even act it out differently than an S and J would, but I think the general principles are valid across the board even as the specific implementations will vary.
How's that? Did it clarify things a bit? I see better from what you said (if I'm understanding you rightly) how this seeming uncertainty could be distracting and discouraging to a young mom just as too much certainty could be. But the "seeming" uncertainty is just that, it's not fundamental uncertainty. Not in the least. I have never decided I would really rather go to the Antarctic than to China, after all; (whatever the spiritual and educational equivalent of this geographical analogy might be; it is probably best expressed in Elizabeth's book). |
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Yes, clearer...but as always with your wonderful posts it makes me go even deeper and open up a new train of thoughts.
One of those thoughts is that it's REALLY a good thing to see the different personalities on this board. To see it in black and white with letters! It helps me understand on a variety of levels on how to approach various input on the board. For example, I won't be able to make my own some of the educational approaches of "Mom #1" because she's an "E" and I'm an "I"....It might sound wonderful as she describes it for her family, but I can be safely assured that it might not work for me....and not feel guilty if I do try and it fails. And if it doesn't sound appealing, no matter how much is written on extolling the wonderful virtues it instills, I will not try to force fit it on us.
And in a similar mode, if it looks appealing, I'll need to adapt it to make it my own, if I see our personalities aren't completely similar. Our approach will be different.
It's not a new realization that everyone is different here, but it helps to visually see the difference. Faceless, voiceless communication is harder to decipher clearly.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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Willa
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Jenn, that was a great post. It inspired lots of thoughts -- so many, that I have tried to write replies several times and always ended up practically writing a book. Then the last time, I thought I had managed and I pressed the Post button in a hurry because someone else wanted to use the computer, and I think somehow it disappeared in cyberspace. ANyway -- maybe I better get this one out before something else happens ... but thanks for your thoughts.
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Willa
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Karen E.
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I'm late to this discussion (too busy getting to know myself, I guess ) but I was INFJ ... the "Know Thyself" mother.
I also wavered between some of the choices, but INFJ is what I usually am on Meyers-Briggs stuff.
I really like the The Temperament God Gave You and appreciate that they've distilled it down to four basic personality types. Easier to "type" your family members with that book than to put everyone through Meyers-Briggs.
Willa, you wrote:
WJFR wrote:
Is the ideal to: mortify preferences, balance them out by consciously bringing in the other aspect, or make them into something beautiful for GOd? Or a combination? |
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I think that I used to mortify preferences, thinking that I "should" be a certain way that I had deemed superior to the way I really am. For example, before I recognized myself as an introvert, I simply felt inadequate as a human being for not having the same kind of energy as many people around me. I wondered what was wrong with me that I seemed to "need" a little solitude to recharge. Learning about personality typing was a blessing to me in that way. It would be a mistake for me to mortify that need entirely, since treating it as a legitimate need helps me be a better mother.
But, it would be a mistake for me to *over-indulge* that part of my personality as well. I can't use introversion as an excuse to be selfish and push my family away.
So, I think as with so many things, it's that delicate balancing act, the "combination" that you mentioned. Being aware of my personality type helps me to develop the strengths, to realistically assess my talents but also my limitations, and to work with both ends of the spectrum.
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God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
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| Posted: May 28 2006 at 8:05pm | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
| Jenn, that was a great post. It inspired lots of thoughts -- so many, that I have tried to write replies several times and always ended up practically writing a book. Then the last time, I thought I had managed and I pressed the Post button in a hurry because someone else wanted to use the computer, and I think somehow it disappeared in cyberspace. ANyway -- maybe I better get this one out before something else happens ... but thanks for your thoughts. |
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I'm sad the thoughts got lost in cyberspace.... That has happened to me quite frequently. After the initial shock, (and  ) I have to step back and offer it up. Besides working on my own faults, I think it's some special soul or need popping up that needs something right then.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: What Type of Mother are You?
