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stefoodie
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we're on the road, so iwill read more thoroughly and respond more later. if it would help, look for simcha fischer's writings. i find her very frank approach to nfp and the struggles behind it refreshing and helpful. even the people on her comboxes are usually Catholics who are very honest and yet are still trying to stay faithful to the teachings of the Church.
it may be you are in a rut right now with this, so I'm offering lots of prayers. we hear you, sister :) but at the same time i would caution against thinking that the Pope, etc. have no idea what we go through. remember that they too are called to chastity and to taking up their cross just like we are. okay, back to driving..late r. prayers!!!!
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stef
mom to five
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Erica Sanchez
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I am praying for you, too, MommyD. This is probably the hardest thing we are asked to do as Catholics. I could write out our story and I am sure it would be similar to many other women here, but I won't. It is hard, but it is good...like so many things in life.
Someone already asked, but the first question I had when I read your original post was what if you get pregnant using a barrier method? What then?
Where is your husband in all of this? NFP seems to be more of a struggle for our husbands. What does he think? Are you feeling pressured because of his struggles with this? He needs to be the leader here and take charge of the spiritual well-being of you, your marriage and his family. Has he spoken to a holy priest regarding this? I would start with this as quickly as possible. A priest would be an excellent person to speak with regarding abstinence!
I know you don't want to talk about methods, per se, but have you tried Creighton? If you have not, I highly recommend it and also that you find an instructor who is willing to really help you, keeping your charts even. I have found that our instructor was very much about charting well and using as many days per cycle as possible. It might take a bit to figure out how your medical issues affect your fertility, but I think this is Creighton's strong point.
I think the Church allows us to decide the number of children we ultimately have. I don't think anyone should tell you that you are wrong to feel like you would like to be done having children and only you and your husband can decide that (with the help of a good priest). There are many valid reasons to postpone or be done having children.
This is tough! Are there women in your community using NFP that you could meet with? I think it is most hard when you are using NFP to speak with women who are not; when you wish to postpone or be done and you are speaking with women who only want to speak about the blessings of more children (even though this is 100% true!) - do you know what I mean? I say this with great love and respect, not to create a divide between two camps.
Sometimes we just need to obey (in this case, obey Holy Mother Church), and the rest comes later.
Sorry to go and on, MommyD. I know your struggles. All faithful Catholics do.
Sometimes in our times of greatest struggle in this area, I would sing a part of some song I knew (I think it was the theme song from a Steubenville conference actually!). "We will not let the devil win." And, in a particular moment, that was enough to keep us going.
Lastly, I think this a dangerous place to be. To know the teachings of the Church, but to choose to go against them. This is different than not knowing. I think Confession and seeing a priest should be at the top of your list of things to do. This is a spiritual attack on your Catholic marriage and your individual souls.
I will pray for you! You are a beautiful woman of God and of faith and you can do this! 
__________________
Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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SallyT
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Perhaps a side note, but for the sake of clarity: Former Anglicans, including married clergy, who enter the RCC via the Anglican Ordinariate do in full consciousness and very deliberately take on the fullness of the Church's teaching, including the teaching about contraception. It's my understanding that Eastern Rite married priests abide by this discipline, though the Orthodox -- from whom we remain separated, sadly -- do not. (and to hear the Orthodox tell it, it's the "filioque" in the Creed that's the real issue, not contraception . . . )
I'm a former Anglican, married to a former Anglican priest (not ordained in the RCC at this time, though that may change -- we came into the Catholic Church several years ahead of the Ordinariate, so didn't ride that wave). I will say honestly that the thought of giving up contraception was a huge barrier to conversion, for me, for years and years. I used to joke that I would become Catholic with the onset of menopause, which is pretty much what happened, as it turned out, and although I have to laugh at myself, I also rather regret the wasted years and the people who might have been here, had it not been for my fear of them. But that's another story.
At any rate, married and celibate clergy in the Church don't share a life of abstinence, but they do share a life of *chastity,* which entails sexual discipline. A celibate priest can certainly understand marital struggles, including sexual ones -- at least, my confessor gives every appearance of doing so, and responds with great sensitivity. And as the lone priest in a growing parish, he has known sleepless nights, missed meals, and unrelenting demands on his time and energy -- and no one at home to help him shoulder the load. Having been on both sides of the fence, I seriously doubt that there's too much in my own life that my confessor doesn't understand on one level or other.
On the other hand, perhaps what the Eastern Rite and the Anglican Use both have to offer, as a dimension of Catholic culture which those of us in the Latin Rite may not see very often, is precisely the presence of a clergy who are living just this struggle in marriage. I dearly love the model of the celibate priest. Even having resisted the very idea of an all-male clergy, let alone a celibate one, for many ,many years, I now don't see the celibacy model as lacking in any meaningful way. Some priests are more approachable than others; some priests are smarter than others; some priest are more relational than others. Celibacy doesn't have a whole lot to do with whether a priest is a good counselor for a particular person or situation, and the idea of seeking out a priest -- a regular ol' celibate Catholic priest -- to talk to is not an invitation to futility. Still, as I've heard women speak with real anguish about the difficulty of this path of faith, I have thought that the growing presence of the Eastern and Anglican traditions in the Church may be a gift -- the gift of fellow travelers.
This may not help anybody concretely here, now. But ultimately I hope that these married clergy, especially the Anglicans coming in in full knowledge of what they're embracing, will bear witness to the truth of these teachings, and that that witness will bear great fruit. Perhaps, even more than maintaining the "Anglican patrimony," their witness in marriage is meant to be part of their charism in the life of the Church.
Meanwhile, reality on the ground is that like anyone else, married clergy understand their own frame of reference. That they understand their own marriages (assuming they do, and a heck of a lot of married clergy do not -- the divorce rate among Episcopal clergy is pretty staggering, for example) does not guarantee that they will understand yours. That a particular priest is married to a particular woman is no guarantee that he will understand *you* as a woman. But then, even a married priest isn't there to understand you, necessarily -- he's there to administer the sacraments, just like any other priest. And he's there to tell you the truth, which he is bound to do whether the truth is easy or not.
Again, this is pretty much a side note, but it seemed kind of germaine to me, and is certainly the only thing I have to offer to a discussion about NFP. I'm past the time when this was a live issue in my own life, and that is its own cross. But it is one I can offer for all of you who do struggle daily in this particular way in the trenches of marriage and motherhood.
With love and prayers for you all,
Sally
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Aagot
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Please do not be embarassed by starting this discussion, MommyD.
Really, we all have those dark moments when the devil attacks and it can bring much clarity and relief just to say exactly what is on your mind, no matter how dark it is. It even worked in this case. See how quickly you saw how things were? It does not make your issues go away but it can be so good just to get it out there.
God bless you!
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Erica Sanchez
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God bless you and your husband, MommyD.
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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guitarnan
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Quote:
| And as the lone priest in a growing parish, he has known sleepless nights, missed meals, and unrelenting demands on his time and energy -- and no one at home to help him shoulder the load. Having been on both sides of the fence, I seriously doubt that there's too much in my own life that my confessor doesn't understand on one level or other. |
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All the priests I have known personally have lived just this life. It's so physically and emotionally draining, and our priests have the extra worry of having angry parishioners writing to our bishop if things don't go "their way."
I think this is why I trust our priests so much...No, they have not had to raise children during military deployments or figure out how to pay the bills when unexpected family expenses loom, but they know all too well how hard it is to support a family - a parish family - in an exhausted and emotionally drained state.
This brings me to my final point...as Catholics, we know our Church was founded by Jesus Christ, who showed us in His own time on Earth that the path to Heaven is strewn with brambles, not rose petals. Being a faithful Catholic is hard. Sometimes we fall and must ask for forgiveness. Sometimes we have to rely on family members or friends or random people in our lives to pull us through difficult times. We know that is how our lives are meant to be...not perfect, but Heaven-focused...because Our Lord showed us the way. And that way is the Way of the Cross. All along that Way, Jesus showed us that we are never alone. He is there, His Blessed Mother is there, Simon of Cyrene is there (thank you, God, for the Simons you have sent to me over the years!), the women of Jerusalem are there, Veronica is there, St. Dismas is there. Jesus is God, and therefore perfect, but He gave us signposts along that seemingly impossible road, so that we can see Him in our lives and show that presence to others.
And people over the centuries thought (and think) Jesus walked the Way alone! We can't do that, and Jesus showed us that true Way.
I am so thankful for all the ladies here who have empathized with you in ways I cannot (my fertility cross is different from yours) and for everyone who is praying for you. Please count me among the group of praying moms!
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Pilgrim
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It's so easy to get pulled into feeling or thinking the way the world and media tells us to think of the pope or priests, as these single men, who think they can tell us what to do. To feel "how can they tell me what to do, when they have never lived my life, they have no idea what I go through". A couple of thoughts: they may have no idea, exactly what we experience, but it does not require exact experience of another's pain to have empathy. Do you have empathy sorrow for the terrible things Christ went through? Would you say He shouldn't have gone through His unbelievable pains in the unjust accusations of MANY, the hatred aimed at HIM who was innocent of ANY wrongdoing ever, His inhuman passion, death, etc, etc, etc? Would you tell Him not to just because it was hard to bear? In a way, we all "ask" Him to have suffered for us, because if He didn't we wouldn't go to heaven, ever, *no chance*! The Church(through the popes or any in union with them, faithful to Her teachings priests, bishops, etc.) "asks" us to do *many* hard things, but it is not out of malice, or "trying" to make things hard for us, or even a callous, uncaring heart, rather it is out of faithfulness to what is true, plain, raw, even hard to live Truth. Yes the Catholic Faith is hard to live, Christ told us it would be. But He says "take up your cross and follow Me". It may seem other's crosses are not as difficult as ours because at times our cross may *just feel like more then we can bear*. In one way or another, I'm willing to bet every woman on this forum has had a time like your having, crying on her knees before God, saying "Lord, I just can't take this cross". I can tell you, I have had numerous times in my life where I have! I may not experience the pain of the abstinence of NFP, but I have experienced pains "no one should have to go through", literally laying face down crying in adoration chapel alone before the altar, saying "Why Lord? What are You doing here? Why do I have to bear a cross like this?". 
Really it is not ONE pope telling us we must follow what the church teaches on NFP, not using artificial birth control, etc. It is the Church in unison throughout time, and not just the Church, but really Jesus, as her Head, the Holy Spirit as the inspiring Guide, and God the Father, as Our Loving Father, who knows our pain, even if it doesn't seem so.
Quote:
Mark Schultz \ I Have Been There
In a room without a view
A new mother smiles and holds the tiny fingers
Of her brand new baby girl
Her husband takes her by the hand
So unsure about the future and no money
Can they make it in this world
And they pray, Lord all we have to give is love
Then they heard a gentle voice
Like an echo from above
Oh I have been there
I know what fear is all about
Yes, I have been there
And I am standing with you now
I have been there
And I came to build a bridge oh so this road could
Lead you home
Oh I have been there
He’d been a pastor twenty years
But tonight he sits alone and brokenhearted
In the corner of the church
He’s tried to change a fallen world
With his words and with his wisdom
But it seems like it is only getting worse
And he cries
Oh Lord I just don’t understand
And then he felt the hand of grace,
And he heard a voice that said
I have been there
I know what pain is all about
Yes, I have been there
And I am standing with you now
I have been there
And I came to build to a bridge oh so
This road could lead you home
Oh I have been there
An older man up on a hill
Holding flowers but he can’t hold back the tears
He has come to say goodbye
He thinks about the life she lived
Thinks about how hard it’s been
To live without her
Sixty years right by his side
And he cries, Oh Lord I loved her
‘til the end
Then he heard a gentle voice say you’ll see her once again
I have been there
I know what sorrow is all about
Yes, I have been there
And I am standing with you now
I have been there
And I came to build a bridge
Oh so this road could lead her home
The road could lead her home
Oh I have been there
You know I overcame the cross
I have been there
So her life would not be lost
I have been there
And I came to build a bridge
Oh so this road could lead you home
The road could lead you home
Oh I have been there |
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Each pope has an *incredible* burden on his shoulders, he has to lead billions of people throughout the world, many who will be upset with him for upholding the Truth, who will accuse *him* of being the reason for their struggles. Can you imagine being a parent to so many unhappy children?!? It difficult enough when we have even 2 or 3 children upset at what we tell them to do, what we know they should do. Do we stop telling them to do it just because it upsets them, do we stop teaching them the truth because they don't like it? No! We almost daily, if not daily, tell our children to do things they do not like, how would it be if they returned to us the kinds of things we say in frustration with the pope/priests who are only trying to be faithful to the Truth? And not only that, but if we had as many "children" as the pope? It must be an incredible burden on the heart and soul of the pope!! Then add to that millions in the world saying all manner of terrible things about you accusing you of incredibly hurtful and just wrong things. We think we have had others say bad things about us! I'll wager not one of us has ever experienced the burdens the popes do, and has never had so many throughout the world, particularly in the media watching our every word and action, just waiting to spread it all over what "wrong" we did. Can you imagine having things you do, only living in faithfulness to the Truth, spread from one corner of the universe to the other, literally, and having millions jump on the band wagon and "beat you up" for it?
MommyD, I do not say any of this to condemn, hurt, or any other negative thing to you!  You and your husband are hurting so very much, we ladies know this, and care. We care for your heart, your soul, your struggle. I just hate to see it be against the pope. It's not really about the pope, or any faithful priest/bishop/religious who upholds faithfully and unrelentingly what the Church tells us to be true. They so often know *what a hard truth* it is they ask us to live. I'm sure often it breaks their heart to tell us the truth, to ask us to live it, like a parent having to see their child in pain, but they know it's for the good of their soul, and that is what's most important to them. Would they rather tell us what's easy for us, what we'd like to hear or do? YES! But if a pope/priest knows the truth and tells us otherwise, he is liable for all the souls under him, and he will bear the burden of going to hell.
I can imagine for the pope and priests telling us the hard truth, even though they know it's painful/difficult to live, that it's like it was for my Mom when I was little, having me go through surgeries that she knew would be so painful, or having to change bandages on burns across my body, as i tried not to push her hands away because it hurt so. It was SO hard for her to do, but she knew it was the right thing to do for my body. Or when I was a late teen living in sin, she had to tell me the hard truth for the sake of my soul, even though she knew I'd get angry, and I did.
I pray your heart can see through to not being angry with the pope or any good priest who upholds Church teaching. Why God has given you this cross, no one may know this side of heaven, but He has. Two dear ladies I have known have said that sometimes God allows us some of "our purgatory here on earth". I've heard that the sufferings of this life are better than the sufferings we would experience in purgatory. This may seem crazy at this moment, as you are in the midst of incredible pain that God would allow whatever is causing you guys to go through this, but suffering can be incredibly redemptive and can be good for our souls, though our hearts so often can't understand why we must go through this. We *want* to kick and scream, even if just interiorly, at the difficulty we're going through, it's natural human emotions!
Again, each of us ladies here, has been in a place like you are, in one way or another. Our hearts ache for you! We don't condemn you for feeling like you do! Keep talking this through, praying, even if all you can manage is "God I *don't understand this*, help me!"
May Our Lord and Our lady hold you and your husband close to their hearts throughout this struggle!
St. Joseph, please pray for them!
Our Lady Queen of Peace, please pray for them!
St. Rita of Cascia, please pray for them!
St. Aloysius Gonzaga, please pray for them!
St. Elizabeth of Hungary, please pray for them!
Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal, please pray for them!
All you holy saints who suffered greatly in this life, please pray for them!
__________________
Wife 2 my bf, g14,b8,g&b6,g4,g3,g1 1/2,4 ^i^
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JennGM
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The thing is, the Pope isn't telling you what to do. The Church isn't wielding an arbitrary law to make people miserable. That is what I was trying to say above, that you have to try to read and understand WHY and not listen to the worldly view of "the Pope needs to stay out of my bedroom." Marriage and the act is way more than just between two people, and the language of marriage is so deep and spiritual. It's not just an isolated pleasure.
Just in the natural order, ABC or barrier is DISordered. That is where the Church has based the teachings on openness to life.
But we are all understanding and empathetic in knowing that in the trenches it is HARD, and there are times when you can feel almost despairing. God will take you to the edge at times, but His Grace is always sufficient for the battles you must fight. But you have to ask, yell at times, cry and cry on His shoulder.
Alone you can't do it. With cooperation with grace through prayer and study and communication with your husband, you are an INVINCIBLE Army!
Continued prayers! Don't look ahead at the daunting 10-15 years. God gives His grace at the moment, and you must live in the moment.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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Pilgrim
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JennGM wrote:
| The thing is, the Pope isn't telling you what to do. The Church isn't wielding an arbitrary law to make people miserable. That is what I was trying to say above, that you have to try to read and understand WHY and not listen to the worldly view of "the Pope needs to stay out of my bedroom." |
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Yes! that's what I was feebly trying to get out when I couldn't sleep this morning. 
__________________
Wife 2 my bf, g14,b8,g&b6,g4,g3,g1 1/2,4 ^i^
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Pilgrim
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JennGM wrote:
Marriage and the act is way more than just between two people, and the language of marriage is so deep and spiritual. It's not just an isolated pleasure.
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So true! It's so hard with the way we are trained to think by society, and our own natural desires, to overcome this and learn to think of marital physical union in the deeper realm that was so very well expressed by JPII in The Theology of the Body. The union of the marital act is so much more than our world sees it as, so much deeper, such a spiritual thing, that affects our spirits, our souls, so very much!While trials in this area are so hard to bear, they are an opportunity to grow and show our faithfulness to God, no matter what He asks of us, and each other as husband and wife.
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Wife 2 my bf, g14,b8,g&b6,g4,g3,g1 1/2,4 ^i^
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myheaven1967
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I hope it is ok to add my reply here. Moderators if you feel it needs to be taken away, I will not be offended.
In February of 2012, my husband and I lost our last baby. Yes, our last. We were both so mortified that I refused any activity with my husband until he went for a v-s-ctomy.
Six months later, we finally united again.
I felt free. I never wanted that burden of pregnancy or another child again. We have 5 healthy children. Why would I want more?
We humans are fickle. And what we want NOW we might not want 6 months from now.
I regret every day, what I asked my husband to do. There will be no more growth in my womb. There will be no more babies at my breast. There will be no more dirty diapers to change. Or fresh clean babies to sniff and enjoy. My early parenting days are done. I turned away from God's gift. AND I HATE IT!
Please, please, follow the teachings of the Church. Do not make things permanent. It is horrible awful. The regret is so emotionally horrible. When I come together with my husband now, I KNOW something is missing. Every month I pray God will let that v-s-ctomy somehow not work. But I am paying the price for my "well thought out" choice.
We cannot afford to get reversed. And even if we could, he wouldn't do it.
Don't make an awful mistake.
I completely regret my decision.
Hugs mama. Lots of hugs.
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Jill: Wife to Kurt, mother to 1 dd and 4 ds
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stefoodie
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Wow, Jill.
Thanks for sharing.
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stef
mom to five
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myheaven1967
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I was torn about this post since I read the original. I wanted to reply but it took a bit for me to be able to put it into words.
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Jill: Wife to Kurt, mother to 1 dd and 4 ds
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Bridget
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Hugs Jill. You are brave to share and hopefully it will help others who are struggling.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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myheaven1967
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That is the only purpose of me posting it, (to help another who is struggling) it is a thing I will have to deal with and suffer through for the rest of my life.
If I can help change one heart, just one, then maybe it was worth it.
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Jill: Wife to Kurt, mother to 1 dd and 4 ds
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guitarnan
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Jill, sometimes God puts us somewhere so that we can, as you say, change a heart. Sometimes we don't know whether we've ever managed to do that. Your heartfelt plea may touch a current member or a future reader...or both...you are very courageous to share your reflections and emotions with us all.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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CrunchyMom
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SallyT wrote:
| At any rate, married and celibate clergy in the Church don't share a life of abstinence, but they do share a life of *chastity,* which entails sexual discipline. A celibate priest can certainly understand marital struggles, including sexual ones -- at least, my confessor gives every appearance of doing so, and responds with great sensitivity. And as the lone priest in a growing parish, he has known sleepless nights, missed meals, and unrelenting demands on his time and energy -- and no one at home to help him shoulder the load. Having been on both sides of the fence, I seriously doubt that there's too much in my own life that my confessor doesn't understand on one level or other. |
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Father Longenecker just posted about Contraception and Celibacy, and I found it interesting in light of this conversation and the fact that he himself is a married priest (former Anglican).
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Betsy
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@Lindsay-thanks for posting the link to Fr Lonfenecker's post. So true and wise.
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ImmaculataDesigns.com
When handcrafting my work, I always pray that it will raise your heart to all that is true, modest, just, holy, lovely and good fame!
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RamFam
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| Posted: Sept 26 2013 at 1:30pm | IP Logged
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Ladies, I haven't been here in a long time. I searched nfp and found just what I needed to hear. Thank you, MommyD, for opening a conversation about something so personal and difficult.
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Leah
RamFaminNOVA
Tom ^i^, Kyle (my Marine), Adeline '00, Wyatt '05, Isaac '07 Philip '08,Michael '10, and John Xavier Feb '13
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Vanna
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| Posted: Sept 27 2013 at 11:32am | IP Logged
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Jill,
thank you for sharing your story. We have dealt with something very similar 4 years ago in November I had elective, permanent sterilization surgery on myself. I had my tubes tied plus the Novasure procedure. These are irreversible. At the time, we were so broke and my marriage was on the rocks. I stopped trusting God and decided that I knew better. I thought I'm a terrible mom that I cannot provide better for the 2 children I have, I should not bring more children into this home that struggles so much financially. I awoke from the surgery knowing that I had just made a terrible mistake, that I had sinned horribly against God and hurt my family. Before I had even made it home from the hospital, I was sobbing uncontrollably. My husband was at a loss as to what to say or do because he agreed to this surgery because he thought it's what I really wanted and that it would take stress off of me. We are still recovering from this.
I share this as a warning to people who are struggling. I have confessed this sin and know that I have been forgiven but the damage is done and it is something I will live with forever. I hope that others who read this will not make the same choice. Cherish the beautiful role that God has given you a woman. It can be trying and tiring but it's so rewarding. God bless.
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Wife to K  Mommy to B (ds18) and G (ds8)
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Struggling to remain Catholic due to NFP
