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Cay Gibson
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Okay, I need a few more guesses on the 4th Mystery Literature Location before I reveal the mystery.
Another hint: I was contacted yesterday by Pelican Publishing to do a middle reader on this literary persona. 
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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JennGM
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Okay, Cay, took a stab.....
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Cay Gibson
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And, Jenn got it right!  
The answer (and my news) is found here: Mysterious Rose
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Cay Gibson
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lapazfarm
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Very cool, Cay. Congrats on the book deal. Sounds like you've got your summer all wrapped up!
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Theresa
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JennGM
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Cay Gibson wrote:
And, Jenn got it right!
The answer (and my news) is found here: Mysterious Rose |
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So is my prize an autographed copy of the upcoming book?
You had some good clues...but part of my deduction was your past reading and discussion of "The Ghost in the Little House" on Literature Alive. So that clue of "most significant work is not her own" gave me the hunch, and then telling Lissa she should know made me pretty positive. The Connecticut thing was tricky, but her last years were spent in a little house in Danbury, CT...
I'm so happy about your project, Cay! I'll be praying for you. And let us know if you have some humps and need some extra prayers to push you along! I'm behind you all the way!
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Cay Gibson
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JennGM wrote:
So is my prize an autographed copy of the upcoming book? |
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 That's a very good offer, Jenn. Just remind me... 
JennGM wrote:
| You had some good clues...but part of my deduction was |
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You are so cleaverly observant, Jenn. I need you as a research assistant.
JennGM wrote:
I'm so happy about your project, Cay! I'll be praying for you. And let us know if you have some humps and need some extra prayers to push you along! I'm behind you all the way!
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Thank you. This touches my heart so much.
And I might need your input on certain issues of Rose's life.
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Cay Gibson
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Lissa
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JennGM wrote:
| You had some good clues...but part of my deduction was your past reading and discussion of "The Ghost in the Little House" on Literature Alive. So that clue of "most significant work is not her own" gave me the hunch,] |
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Too funny--that was the bit that threw me off. I thought perhaps it meant Tasha Tudor's illustrations for The Secret Garden.
Cay, I'm interested--do you subscribe to the Ghost theory? I remember thinking it was an interesting notion but all my work on the inside, so to speak, convinced me its claims were off base. In particular I was struck by Laura's original draft of Pioneer Girl (which never got published...I am one of the lucky few people to have a copy of the ms). It was so much HER, Laura, and yet clear that she hadn't yet found her stride. (The editor who rejected it suggested she rewrite it for children, and that's what led to LH in the Big Woods). I know Rose offered her excellent editorial support, but I don't believe she did the real *writing*.
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Cay Gibson
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Lissa wrote:
Cay, I'm interested--do you subscribe to the Ghost theory? |
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Absolutely not!
I've read "Ghost in the Little House" twice and think Holtz just took the editing clues and private correspondence between mother and daughter and expanded it into the ghostwriting theory.
Rose was quite adamant in her defense of her mother's books. I'm sure had she wanted to take credit for the writing she would have done so while she was alive. She didn't.
I also read John E. Miller's LIW's Little Town . Interesting stuff in that one too. Holtz certainly did his research and the correspondence bears witness that Rose did play a role in the LH series. I don't see that as a bad thing though. I see the end result as a beautiful collaboration between mother and daughter. Laura wrote, Rose fine-tuned...which is what an editor does.
I don't think Rose ever realized what a wonderful job she did in fine-tuning the novels. She never took credit for them. She always looked at them as her mother's work. She never felt that she had written anything wonderful and continuous.
I hope my book can possibly elevate the collaboration between mother and daughter but show that, while Rose played a consulting, editing role in the LH books, she did not ghostwrite them. The books are Laura's writing about Laura's life. I believe that.
Victoria and I had some long email discussions regarding the ghostwriting theory and Holtz's claims at large. I hope she'll jump into this conversation.
Or should we take this conversation off-list? 
Side Note: My book isn't primarily about this issue. It's simply a middle reader about Rose's life as a whole.
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Cay Gibson
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JennGM
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Cay Gibson wrote:
Lissa wrote:
Cay, I'm interested--do you subscribe to the Ghost theory? |
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Or should we take this conversation off-list?
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I, for one, am enjoying it. If you do take it off list, I'd love to see a list of good books to read about Rose and Laura, biographies, etc. I do want to read Ghost.
I got the (probably mistaken) impression that Rose didn't really get along with her mother. Perhaps I thought that because she left the family homestead. I know she returned at different times, but I thought I had read something along those lines.
But if they collaborated, that doesn't seem likely.
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Cay Gibson
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Perhaps Laura and Rose didn't have the warm, fuzzy relationship that we so treasure and want with our dds, but I don't know that it was as harsh as "Ghost" makes it out to be.
Reading Laura and Rose's letters, they were very supportive of one another and had a real affection for each other.
I think they had bumps in their relationship but it had more to do with Rose being truly Pa Ingall's granddaughter---full of wanderlust and adventure---and Laura wanting Rose to settle down and stay on the farm.
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Cay Gibson
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Victoria in AZ
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Thanks for the invitation to comment here, Cay, and once again huge congratulations on the book. The Ingalls are one of my very favorite subjects and I see no reason this discussion would have to go off list. Yes, I read _Ghost In the Little House_ by William Holtz a year and a half ago. It has taken nearly that long to process it!
I do love the idea given by Holtz of ghost writing as giving spirit to writing, as in Holy Ghost. As Cay expressed, I agree that Rose helped to shape the writing of the Little House stories, but she did not ghost write. She did a fantastic job editing though. Rose could have asserted her authorship after Laura's death. She never does. We see no desire by Rose, even in her diary notes, for any billing on the LH books. I am inclined to believe that had there never been a Rose, Mama Bess might still have found someone to embrace her stories, edit them professionally and push to have them published. I also see this counter-balance that Rose may never have had her stories (such as _Let the Hurricane Roar_) without Laura's.
I also see Rose as having plenty of Ingalls in her. To the end of her life, she embodies the homesteading spirit of looking after herself. Rose appreciates gardening and handy crafts. According to Holtz's portrayal, Rose was uniformly unsentimental throughout her life. This helps me to accept that it would be out of character for Rose to be sentimental about the LH books. To Rose's credit, she did cooperate with the idea of a LH museum.
I was initially horrified that Laura and Rose did not have that warm, fuzzy relationship. In the end though, I do not trust Holtz's look at their mother/daughter relationship. What a male author may not be able to appreciate is that a female can be infuriated /exasperated by their mother and still love her very much. Additionally, sometimes what we write in our diaries are passionate emotions not felt at all times. Like being a drama queen! Further distrust is added by a flavor to this book that reads a bit like a psychologist's medical file.
The happy bottom line for me is that the Little House stories are the same lovable stories that are an important, joyful memory for me as a child and as an adult with my own children. My advice to fellow LHOP fans is to read the appendix of the Ghost book first.
I have more notes about this book and would be happy to further discuss with anyone interested.
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JennGM
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Victoria, thanks for your comments on _Ghost_. I do need to read it. I'd love to hear more on your notes on this book, although since I haven't read it, I can't make very intelligent questions.
You said "it would be out of character for Rose to be sentimental about the LH books." Are you saying it's a homesteader trait, or Ingalls blood to be unsentimental? It seems to me the story of LH is sentimental...tracing steps, seeing Ma how she carried those same items in all those travels, and the "Give us This Day Our Daily Bread" plate of Laura's -- little examples to me of sentimentality and nostalgia.
I'm currently reading "Little House in the Ozarks" and Laura shows a strong feminist side...different of course, of modern day feminists, but still the early suffragette mentality. And her article were to promote homesteading. This writing is so different from the LH books, I was quite surprised.
Did Laura ever state a purpose for writing her Little House books in the first place? And do you think Rose kept to her aim, or refined or softened it?
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Cay Gibson
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JennGM wrote:
| Victoria, thanks for your comments on _Ghost_. I do need to read it. I'd love to hear more on your notes on this book, although since I haven't read it, I can't make very intelligent questions. |
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Jenn, I kept a copy of some *points and concerns* that Victoria noted and sent to me. I'll share them with Victoria's permission.
JennGM wrote:
| You said "it would be out of character for Rose to be sentimental about the LH books." Are you saying it's a homesteader trait, or Ingalls blood to be unsentimental? |
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Rose had her mother's fiercely independent spirit. I don't think she was unpassionate, she was highly intelligent and, thus, not given to sentimental notions. Holtz hints that Rose suffered with depression (possibly bi-polar). Of coursse, if she did the understanding of mental illness and the treatment were not the same as it is today. I don't plan to bring that out in my book though as it is only a theory by Holtz...not proven...and not necessary at all.
JennGM wrote:
| And her article were to promote homesteading. This writing is so different from the LH books, I was quite surprised. |
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Reading LIW's Little Town by JOhn Miller is very enlightening regarding the whole concept of homesteading and independence and the whole pioneering ethic.
JennGM wrote:
| Did Laura ever state a purpose for writing her Little House books in the first place? And do you think Rose kept to her aim, or refined or softened it? |
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Her primary reason, as written by LIW herself, was to preserve the stories Pa told her and Mary as children. She achieved that...and then some.
I suggest anyone wanting a clearer view of Laura and Rose check out A Little House Samper. This book is a collection of articles written by Laura and Rose. Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
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Cay Gibson
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Cay Gibson
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JennGM wrote:
I'm currently reading "Little House in the Ozarks" and Laura shows a strong feminist side...different of course, of modern day feminists, but still the early suffragette mentality. |
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Do you really think so? I admit that some of her pieces in LH in the Ozarks surprised me, but not much. I didn't see the feminist side...perhaps I wasn't as observant?  I do tend to miss things that are obvious to others, so please fill me in.
I hope Lissa will as well...
I discovered a lot of Laura's feelings on home and hearth and family in her personal writings that were woven into the LH books. I believe she wrote about all that in the LH books. Rose was defiantly supportive of self-sufficiency and, since families were a part of that, she had no reason to change things.
There's one experience in The Long Winter where she encouraged her mother to leave out mention of a young couple who stayed with them during that winter. Evidently the couple was lazy and shiftless and, though they weren't of much good, Rose wanted the book to stick to the ideal of family sufficiency. This couple was simply unnecessary in the writing of The Long Winter .
Scanning through A LH Sampler I noticed where Rose wrote a piece for the Country Gentleman magazine on May 6, 1925. Remembering that LH in the Big Woods was not published until 1932, I think we can see a characteristic trait of the LH books through Rose's influence in this one paragraph taken from "Thirty-Mile Neighbors":
"Here are bowls of oatmeal, with whole pints of cream, large dishes of baked apples, the big blue platter full of sizzling ham, with many eggs disposed upon it; here are hot cakes piled by tens and dozens, with melting butter and brown sugar between them, and hashed brown potatoes. Graham bread and white bread, fresh butter, honey, jam, milk and the steaming pot of coffee.
"Here are doughnuts or gingerbread to accompany the coffee cups' second filling, and then --- for he was a boy in New England---my father likes just one medium-size wedge of apple pie, to top off the meal and finish the foundation for a good day's work."
Are you hungry yet?
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Cay Gibson
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JennGM
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Cay Gibson wrote:
JennGM wrote:
I'm currently reading "Little House in the Ozarks" and Laura shows a strong feminist side...different of course, of modern day feminists, but still the early suffragette mentality. |
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Do you really think so? I admit that some of her pieces in LH in the Ozarks surprised me, but not much. I didn't see the feminist side...perhaps I wasn't as observant? I do tend to miss things that are obvious to others, so please fill me in. |
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Maybe I shouldn't say "Strong" but it struck me. But it's perhaps her pioneer and independent spirit that comes out, and I interpret it incorrectly.
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TracyQ
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Wow! This is fascinating! Sarah and I will be using The Prairie Primer next year for her curriculum, her 6th grade year, and last chance for us to use it together. We're both SO excited, I don't know who's more excited! So this is fascinating reading here!
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Victoria in AZ
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JennGM wrote:
You said "it would be out of character for Rose to be sentimental about the LH books." Are you saying it's a homesteader trait, or Ingalls blood to be unsentimental? It seems to me the story of LH is sentimental...tracing steps, seeing Ma how she carried those same items in all those travels, and the "Give us This Day Our Daily Bread" plate of Laura's -- little examples to me of sentimentality and nostalgia.
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Neither. No, not a homesteader trait, but a specific trait of Rose. Not even an Ingalls trait. Which added to my shock of "meeting" Rose in the _Ghost_ book. Absolutely there is sentimentality in the LH books. But several of Rose's diary entries about the LH books were derogatory.
You see, I wanted to love Rose the way I love Laura and Mary and Ma and Pa. I nearly could not forgive her comments about LH until I squared those comments with Rose's uniform unsentimentality throughout her life as described in _Ghost_. Rose still labored to bring her mother's stories to life and to market, and we owe her a debt for it.
Perhaps my greatest sadness is learning that _Little House_ is, after all, fiction and fiction written for children on top of that. Just as Cay rightly does not plan to write about mental illness or other adult issues in her middle reader, LH focuses on information a child could handle.
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Victoria in AZ
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Victoria in AZ
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Cay Gibson wrote:
JennGM wrote:
| Victoria, thanks for your comments on _Ghost_. I do need to read it. I'd love to hear more on your notes on this book, although since I haven't read it, I can't make very intelligent questions. |
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Jenn, I kept a copy of some *points and concerns* that Victoria noted and sent to me. I'll share them with Victoria's permission.
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Cay, share away. I am honored. I am no expert nor historian, but simply an Ingalls fan.
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Victoria in AZ
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Cay Gibson
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Victoria in AZ wrote:
Perhaps my greatest sadness is learning that _Little House_ is, after all, fiction and fiction written for children on top of that. |
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No time for anything else but had to comment...
I believe Rose defended the books as being historical non-fiction. She was defiant when they were labeled *fiction*.
I'll have to look up the quote later.
Right now I'm headed to Adoration with a long prayer list.
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Cay Gibson
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Victoria in AZ
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Cay Gibson wrote:
I believe Rose defended the books as being historical non-fiction. She was defiant when they were labeled *fiction*.
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Based on historical fact, yes. But fiction to me in the sense that I could previously look at the LH stories in soft focus with rose-colored glasses. Ma and Pa were always happy. No baby boy died. There are holes in the stories as there should be for young children. In _Ghost_ (p. 384) we learn of Rose's decision to remove the fact that the government paid for Mary's blind school tuition. It seems Rose refused to acknowledge that the government could be helpful and that one might not always be able to be 100% self-sufficient. I remember being touched at how hard Laura and Pa worked to be able to send Mary to blind school.
I think I'm confusing the issue. One is a literary distinction. I'm speaking to my own ability, as an adult now, to view the LH stories quite so dreamily.
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Victoria in AZ
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4Real Forums : Living Literature
Topic: Rose Wilder Lane ~4th Mystery Lit
