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Neptune
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Hello
I am new here. I am a mother of 3, that is starting our path through homeschooling next year. So I am in the midst of preparation, and I am very excited!
I have a question to ask, and I do not know where to ask this question. Homeschooling is not the trend in my little corner of the world, and I have nobody around me to discuss these (interesting) things with.
I am from a Montessori background. Up to now, my children have been living in the Montessori philosophy, and they are thriving.
But after finding that something was missing from the Montessori elementary period (the importance of books...) I went on a quest to find something that would work for us, that could be integrated in what we are. I stumbled upon Charlotte Mason, and that kinda sealed the deal. I can totally see merging Charlotte Mason and Montessori in our home.
But then I was told about Classical ed. I've been reading about it since, and I don't know what to think of it. It is my understanding that Charlotte Mason was greatly influenced by the Classical Ed, but the way I see it, she turned her method according to her believes. (am I correct in my assumptions?)
Why did you choose Charlotte Mason over a classical ed? What makes you believe this is a better choice in the long run. What type of adult you think will emerge from a Charlotte Mason education vs a Classical one?
I am sorry, I know this is a big subject, but I would love to have more experienced people's insight.
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Becky Parker
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Welcome Neptune!
We mesh a classical education with a Charlotte Mason education. But, I have to admit, even though we've been doing it this way for 10 years, I still don't feel confident to address your question! 
There have been discussions here about classical education and the various views of it. I think if you do a search on something like "classical vs. CM" you will find several threads. We use MODG curriculum for my dd in 7th but MODG classical is different than, say, The Well Trained Mind classical.
Maybe someone can clarify the differences. The things that we do here that are in both the CM method and classical philosophy are copywork and dictation, reading good literature (not text books) to learn about time periods in history and science concepts, studying ancient history, studying classical music, picture study, and poetry memorization. We also don't start grammar instruction until the kids are older, which is, I believe, different from the Montessori way.
I guess, in my opinion, you can provide your children with both a classical education and use the Charlotte Mason methodology at the same time.
So many here have a much broader understanding of both of these so I hope they chime in. I'm interested in the replies you will get as well! 
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Becky
Wife to Wes, Mom to 6 wonderful kids on Earth and 4 in Heaven!
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Mackfam
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Since your question has more to do with the philosophies behind these two forms of education I moved your question to Philosophy of Ed, Neptune.
I'll take a stab at your question.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say....
** A Classical Education is a liberal education rooted in virtue and right understanding.
** A Charlotte Mason Education is a liberal education rooted in the idea that the child is a person made in the Image of God, and that knowledge of God must inform everything.
** A Charlotte Mason Education IS a Classical Education.
** There is actually very little that is different between CM and a true Classical Education as taught by the ancients Greeks.
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To answer your question thoroughly, I'd need lots more time and space than I have here...so, with the understanding that I'm going do a lot of summarizing and putting things into my own words because I don't have the time to link and footnote everything I say, I'll get started.
To understand a little more, we have to have a little context: a little history of Classical Education, what happened to it, it's Renaissance within the home education community, and we have to know what motivated Miss Mason, in the 19th century, to seek out a Philosophy of Education.
5th century - Time of Christ
Classical education is born in Greece and began with the Greek idea of "paideia", or school for instruction. Socratic discussion (a form of asking questions to understand something logically) was used.
Time of Christ - 5th century (collapse of Roman empire)
The Romans furthered Classical education, structuring it into the seven liberal arts:
(Trivium - a Medieval word meaning crossroad or INTERSECTION of three roads)
Grammar (Language)
Logic (Thought)
Rhetoric (Speech: Writing and Communicating)
(Quadrivium - means the INTERSECTION of four roads)
Arithmetic
Geometry
Astronomy
Music theory
** Courses were centered around books, ideas, and their authors, not subjects.
** Study of the Trivium began around the age of 14/15.
** Mastery of the seven liberal arts usually took around six years.
** Education based on virtue and character formation.
After the collapse of the Roman empire, the ancient “paideia” was forgotten.
5th century - 9th century
The methods of Classical education were nurtured quietly in the monasteries of the Catholic Church.
9th century - 13th century
Classical education experienced a renewal and resurgence with the crowning of Charlemagne as the first Holy Roman Emperor. Christian classics were now studied: the Old and New Testaments, the Church Fathers, liturgical books, lives of the Saints, canon law...and...Greek and Roman texts.
14th century - 19th century (way simplifying and generalizing here)
Once social divisions began to break down, a result of the Industrial Revolution which began in earnest by 1750, methods of education radically shifted.
Classical Education began to wane at this point. The Jesuits became very involved in education, and took Classical Education ideas, implementing it in their schools. They kept this form of Classical Education alive into the 20th century.
By the 19th century, forms of Classical Education were kept alive only through those people or institutions that remembered it, or were educated in that manner. By the 20th century, a Classical Education is all but gone from educational systems, save a few private schools.
Here in the US, a tremendous influx of immigrants effected many changes in our educational system, which was pretty solidly rooted in Classical Education until around 1918 when a group of powerful educators, convinced that Classical education was out-dated, voted on and passed an outline of priorities to be conveyed and taught in public high schools: health, command of fundamental processes, worthy home membership, vocation, civic education, worthy use of leisure, ethical character. The study of history is replaced with “social studies”. This outline of priorities is still in place in the US today.
The Renaissance of Classical Education within home education
In the 1940's, Dorothy Sayers, a British author of mystery novels, addressed a group at Oxford University. Her essay, appropriately entitled, The Lost Tools of Learning, was an apt and very accurate assessment of the state of education. This is a fantastic essay, and worth printing and reading! She makes several wonderful points in her essay. Sayers put forward an idea, a theory which even she admitted in her essay had not been fleshed out or tried: that of the Ancient Trivium as corresponding to stages of psychological growth in a child.
Sayers suggested that perhaps the ancient skills of the Trivium (Grammar, Logic, Rhetoric) corresponded with the stages of development she had noticed in children (she had one child):
Grammar to Poll-parrot :: Logic to Pert :: Rhetoric to Poetic
A group of recent educators (within the last 15 or so years), finding great inspiration in Sayers' essay, began to base entire curriculums and a whole approach on the idea of the Trivium as stages, and found a hungry group of receptive home educating parents that were eager to listen and implement these ideas, longing to recover the "lost tools". This group of educators is referred to as neo-Classical. Much of the Classical curriculum you find today is based on this idea of Trivium as stages of development.
As laudable as this effort was to redeem Classical Education from the dust bin of history (and it truly was/is), it did change some pretty significant aspects of the ancient form of Classical Education, specifically that the ancient Trivium was a group of three skills: Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric, and changing the three skills of the Trivium into stages. That's a big jump. In this neo-Classical form of Trivium as stages, subjects become isolated and the form seeks to fit "Classical Education" into a 12 year, US based school model. Grammar is squeezed into years 1 - 4, Grades 5 - 8 focus on logic, and 9 - 12 focus on Rhetoric. The skills take the form of subjects and become compartmentalized, losing the great interplay of connections they once enjoyed as part of the ancient forms.
Let's consider Classical Education with ancient ideas:
In ancient Classical Education, these three skills of the Trivium were developed concurrently, not isolated to stages of development, and they were developed using living, worthy books, narration, discussions (Socratic - asking questions, provocative questions, to reason to a logical conclusion). A student, once the student had mastered these three skills moved on to higher, more specialized learning. The time spent mastering the skills of the Trivium were not pre-defined, you got there when you got there.
If you think of a Classical Education as Trivium as skills - all of a sudden, it becomes a great deal simpler to accomplish where the rubber meets the road in our homes. We don't have to fit all the Grammar (think of Grammar as reading and language) in the early years, Logic (thinking and reasoning) in middle years, and Rhetoric (effective, clear communication whether oral or written) in upper years. It all works together and is interconnected, much like a CM education. To me, one of the great strengths of a Charlotte Mason education is the unique ability for the methods of CM to meet a child where he/she is...never stretching too far into the abstract before a child is ready. Practically speaking, this means that rhetoric in early years looks like oral narration, in middle years, written narrations, and it moves forward and is refined from there.
A common misconception of Classical Education (mostly misunderstood by those of us making use of a CM education in our homes) is that Classical Education encourages blind memorization of facts, something we CMers call, "filling the bucket." This is a misunderstanding. In reading Comenius (an ancient Classical educator), it is clear that memory work is accomplished only after an understanding of the subject matter. Sounds quite CM, doesn't it? In CM's programmes, I find numerous mentions of "memory work" so it's clear she makes use of this tool.
Where does CM come in?
I'm running out of computer time, so I'm typing quickly, off the cuff, from memory....and I hope it's making sense. I wish I had time to link you to MANY Parents Review articles that discuss and extol the benefits of Classical Education, those CM educators that appreciated Socrates, and some even discuss a Classical Model at various PNEU get-togethers.
I surely don't have to point you back to that history timeline of education above for you to see that Miss Mason came to education at a time when it was so in need of her ideas that moved "toward a Philosophy of Education." In a liberal, wide and generous CM education, you will find the skills of the Trivium spread out as a rich feast, and they are taught using methods that are effective and efficient - methods such as dictation, narration, skills of observation are honed and nurtured.
I would propose to you that a Charlotte Mason education, applied as she writes it in her Volumes, is an accurate reflection of ancient Classical education which taught the Trivium as skills to be mastered. I know that this may not be a popular statement, or at least isn't popularly understood, and I would ask that if you disagree with me, let us disagree over ideas in charity.
I welcome questions and discussion of this topic and will do my best, insofar as my limited understanding and reading allows, to explain my points if they are unclear.
I have to run for now, but I do hope that's a start for you, Neptune.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Tami
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I have found MODG to be a good blend of Charlotte Mason + Classical.
- short lessons
- narration, sequencing, dictation, copywork
- conversation
- training of the faculties of observation, listening
- literature, literature, literature
- grammar introduced in appropriate ways and at appropriate ages/stages
- Latin, again in the most efficient way and time
- study of music and fine art
- use of quality materials that make teaching efficient for the hs'ing mom
Let me know if have any questions.
:)
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God bless,
Tami
When we are crushed like grapes, we cannot think of the wine we will become. (Nouwen)
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3ringcircus
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Well, I didn't know I had this very question until I started reading this thread! Thank you, Jen & Becky!
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Christine
Mom to my circus of boys: G-1/06, D-1/04, S-4/10
Started HS in Fall'12
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kbfsc
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Jen, thank you for your wonderful summary! And all off the top of your head! It is very helpful to me as I think ahead to next year... My oldest will be in 5th grade and I feel some urgency to "get organized" about things. So far we've been very eclectic and very casual... and I'm having my every-so-often freak out about it! 
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Kiera
happy mama of ds '02, dd '03, ds '06, dd '09 and little ones in heaven
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Neptune
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WOW!
Thank you so much to all of you for your replies, and Jen, really, thank you from the bottom of my heart for that lengthy and thoughtful reply.
It does make an excellent start, and, it puts things into perspective, one that I was never able to gain before.
Mind if I feed this conversation for a minute?
Why do the Neo-Classical people believe that it is "damageable" to the child to do any kind of logic "before time"? The way I see it, (or at least the way I understood was that) the child is not ready to take any steps into the logical stage until he reaches a certain age. (I am not saying this is correct though. THis is just my understanding of the trivium as it is today, and as they seem to explain it). That fits completely with your explanation of stages rather then skills. I now understand that Miss Mason never saw the Trivium being used this way (stages) since the Stage functioning trivium seems to be rather new, and so it leads me to believe that she is closer to the real Classical ed as it was way before.
But I am still puzzled as why the Neo-Classical people warns about the use of logic before the "right age". What part is not being seen the same way to explain this difference? Why have they decided to differ from what was Classical education at first, I am guessing it is a question of interpretation?
And one last thing I want to clarify. When Miss Mason started her Philosophy of Education, it was my belief that she begging to differ from the commonly used Classical education. But in reality, she was basically just dusting it off the shelves since it has almost disappeared at this point in time, is that accurate? I had always had a vision of Charlotte Mason branching out in some ways of a philosophy (Classical education) that was still alive and running. And upon reading your post, I come to the realization that I was totally off in my assumptions.
Thank you for the link to the "lost tool essay"" The link I had to it was broken, and I couldn't access it.
Off to read some more, thank you again!
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Mackfam
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Neptune wrote:
| Why do the Neo-Classical people believe that it is "damageable" to the child to do any kind of logic "before time"? |
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I can't say with certainty because I've not really studied, or applied, a neo-Classical philosophy in my home, but my guess is that there is a recognition of some wisdom in Sayers' understanding of stages. I mean, we all recognize that a child has to have a good and solid understanding of the concrete before being able to complete more abstract reasoning...thus addition before algebra. My guess would be that these educators simply recognize this and don't want to push too much abstract-logic reasoning too early...but again, and I boldly emphasize - this is my guess. I have great respect for those in the neo-Classical movement. They have done MUCH to bring the ideas of a Classical education back into an area where we can access them and make use of them.
Neptune wrote:
| The way I see it, (or at least the way I understood was that) the child is not ready to take any steps into the logical stage until he reaches a certain age. (I am not saying this is correct though. THis is just my understanding of the trivium as it is today, and as they seem to explain it). |
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Again, my guess is simply that there is a right recognition of appropriate child developmental stages, and a desire to respect that. I think Sayers was right to recognize that, and I do appreciate her observation that some of those skills of the Trivium, those lost tools of learning, have a natural "sensitive period" (now borrowing from Maria Montessori's vocabulary so I can REALLY add a smorgasbord of educators in here!) within certain stages of development.
Neptune wrote:
| That fits completely with your explanation of stages rather then skills. I now understand that Miss Mason never saw the Trivium being used this way (stages) since the Stage functioning trivium seems to be rather new, and so it leads me to believe that she is closer to the real Classical ed as it was way before. |
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I think you're probably correct there. This idea of Trivium as stages is, as far as I know, only as old as Sayers' essay.
Neptune wrote:
| But I am still puzzled as why the Neo-Classical people warns about the use of logic before the "right age". What part is not being seen the same way to explain this difference? Why have they decided to differ from what was Classical education at first, I am guessing it is a question of interpretation? |
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I don't want to mischaracterize their beliefs on this, and too many more guesses and I might be. I will say that in an ancient Classical education, a student wouldn't even begin the Trivium until at least 11 yo, but usually older, so this was a moot point - the child was mature enough to begin tackling abstract reasoning skills when they began approaching the Trivium skills.
And keep in mind, the Trivium represents those lost tools Sayers referred to in her essay. These skills can be learned across content...so we don't really have to have a class called "Grammar", we teach a child to read, they begin narrating, they move on to written narrations on various reading, they learn some mechanics and usage of languages - they are fine tuning and mastering the lost tool or skill of Grammar in many different books, subjects, times of the day, terms, years. The same goes for the other two tools. The tools are learned through the reading of the worthy books (common point in Classical/CM). The word "Trivium" is Latin for intersection of three roads. When these three skills intersect, there is mastery.
Where do I see these two philosophies overlapping naturally? CM's methods provide the direction and guidance to the child and teacher for learning those tools, and her Philosophy of Education keeps the context firmly centered in the child as a person, in the strong belief in the importance of relationships formed with ideas, the need for good habits in laying the foundation in days...etc. These actually complement Classical ideas.
Neptune wrote:
| And one last thing I want to clarify. When Miss Mason started her Philosophy of Education, it was my belief that she begging to differ from the commonly used Classical education. But in reality, she was basically just dusting it off the shelves since it has almost disappeared at this point in time, is that accurate? I had always had a vision of Charlotte Mason branching out in some ways of a philosophy (Classical education) that was still alive and running. And upon reading your post, I come to the realization that I was totally off in my assumptions. |
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I'm not sure this is accurate. In reading Charlotte Mason, she envisioned an entire Philosophy of Education. I don't think she thought of it as borrowing from the Greeks, or even dusting off their methods, or at least, I've not seen this mentioned in her writing, or in any peer writing. Her Philosophy was unique, and was borne out of a great desire to address the deplorable educational system in Great Britain at the time. She saw the twaddle and the stale, lifeless texts choking the life out of learning, and she knew there was a better way. I do believe she saw the common points between her Philosophy and Classical ideas though because I find hints and mentions of it in her writing and in PNEU writings. She quotes Comenius, for goodness sake!
I have read some very good scholarly essays written by Charlotte Mason educators and thinkers that entirely eschew Classical Education, but as I read closely, I see that their definition of Classical Education is that newer form we see today that does place a great emphasis on memorization and divides up subjects into stages. It does not seem to look back to ancient Classical Education for a fuller comparison there. And this is something I would love to read more about from those with a greater understanding of the depth and pedagogy of these two philosophies.
I believe (note that I'm offering my opinion here) that Charlotte Mason saw a real need to return to living books because at the time, educational systems were flooded with texts that were written to bring education to the common masses, and they did so in the most stale and lifeless way. She saw that all children had a great capacity to learn. Her philosophy was (I believe) borne out of this, and not so much a recognition that the Classicists had it right all along, so she'd return to it. I just think her intuition and great skills of observation guided her, and she made use of living methods that fostered relationships with ideas. I'm certain that there are some differences between a CM education and a "Trivium as Skills" Classical Education, but when you step back and look at the two, there is much more in common, enough to say that if you employ Charlotte Mason methods and philosophy in your home (as she advocates it, not picking and choosing some parts from CM, but the balanced whole) what you will end up with is a Classical Education, or a Trivium (intersection) of three skills (possibly more) in an education that equips a child to begin to enter The Great Conversation.
I'll say that these are simply things I have observed from various reading and investigating. It is a topic that interests me (obviously  ). I have no desire to debunk or topple Neo-Classical educators and the work they do! I really enjoy some of their contributions! But, I have a great passion for finding common denominators, particularly in education because our own family philosophy has always been to try conform to St. Paul's admonishment, "whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." When I find such complementarity in educational philosophies, and such rich history, much of it rooted and nurtured by Holy Mother Church (early Classical ed), I find much reason to consider that true, noble, lovely and worthy of thinking about.
Those are just my thoughts.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Claire F
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I just have to say how much I'm enjoying the discussion in this thread! Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far! It is a question I have thought on throughout this (my first) homeschooling year as I have read and researched and found things that work in our family. Great information - thank you!
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Claire
Mom to DS 12/04, DS 5/07, DD 8/09
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Mackfam
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And I wanted to add that these thoughts of mine are very immature. I'm giving myself room to grow and better understand. I've really only been reading deeply and looking closely at this topic for a couple of years, hardly enough for anyone to count on my observations as expert. They are simply the observations of a beginner!
I'm saying that because I've looked back on some of my thoughts shared here over the last 6 years, and I see a definite maturing of thoughts on my part. I hope that's God's grace acting on my thoughts, bringing them closer (even if only my millimeters) to a more whole understanding.
I'm pretty comfortable in my own shoes now which means I get to be content and confident that what we're doing is right for our family, and works, and is flexible enough and leaves room to grow in God's grace and understanding.
Anyway, I wanted to add a disclaimer....so thanks for understanding my passion, my observations, my limitations, my individuality, and my own contentment and joy in choosing and continuing to choose a living Charlotte Mason education for our family.
Disclaimer over. 
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Claire F
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I also want to add a few thoughts of my own.
I was drawn to the Charlotte Mason method as soon as I read the phrase "living books." I knew I didn't want to homeschool in the "school at home" style, attempting to recreate a school classroom. But I wasn't sure where else to turn. I read about the various homeschooling "styles" or "methods" and Charlotte Mason held an immediate appeal for me.
I also read a bit on Classical (which would be more accurately classified as neo-Classical). I read "The Well Trained Mind," a very popular book amongst classical homeschoolers. There were ideas that I took from it, but the overall "feel" of the method, if you will, didn't quite work for me. I found, at least in that particular book (not necessarily in neo-Classical education as a whole), a sense of "do this at this stage or else you'll mess up!" I don't know if the authors intended that, and I'm quite sure many people who read and utilize that book (and others by the same authors) don't come away with the same impression. But with Miss Mason's writings, and others who have written about the CM method, I am usually left feeling inspired, not stressed. That's a rather touchy-feely way of explaining my attraction to CM, but it certainly played a part.
I also can't say I am a CM purist, but I've drawn a lot of inspiration and ideas from Miss Mason's writings, not to mention the wonderful women here! I have used the ideas of living books, copywork and narrations, etc., as well as a sense of "living learning" that I have taken from the CM method and applied it to our little school with, so far, wonderful results. I've worked to find resources, books and some curriculum choices that, while I can't say they are all completely CM, they are choices that are working well for us and again, I've drawn inspiration from the CM method, as well as other ideas.
I don't know how much of your questions I've really addressed, but those are some of my thoughts .
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Claire
Mom to DS 12/04, DS 5/07, DD 8/09
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Amber-v
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The subject of CM vs. Classical vs. Neo-Classical is one I am very interested in as well. I read The Well Trained Mind way back before I even had any school age children and was quite taken with it. However as I began to implement many of the suggestions, I started to question all the work that was being required, as well as the kind of work required. I particularly remember being frustrated at the poor quality of the notebook entries and such I was receiving from my daughter when we were working with the recommended materials like the Usborne history encyclopedias. I started to learn more about Charlotte Mason, and all of a sudden I understood why this was happening - how can you have a child narrate from something that isn't living? No wonder it was so frustrating for us both!
I began to wonder about the whole classical world, and in talking to some women in my (then) local homeschooling group, I found that what the Well Trained Mind and other modern classical educators was putting forth wasn't something that bears much resemblence to classical education of old. One book was particularly useful in learning more about the historical classical education - Climbing Parnassus by Tracy Lee Simmons. If you want a book that will make you swoon over the beauty of a truly classical education, this is it. But what Simmons describes is very different from the WTM or Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum.
One issue that becomes clear in Simmons book is the exclusivity of the ancient classical educational model. It wasn't for everyone, and I think it was proud of this fact. Something I find so beautiful about Charlotte Mason's writings is her emphasis that her philosophy of education is for *everyone* - every child is born a person, and every child deserves a chance to have their mind awakened to these living ideas. Not that she thought that every child was equally brilliant, but every child had the potential to come in contact with living ideas, form connections with them, and grow and learn.
Another book I'd recommend regarding the neo-classical vs. classical distinction is The Latin Centered Curriculum. Andrew Campbell spends the first part of the book defining and describing a classical education (and differentiating it from the neo-classical) then he spends the latter part of the book laying out his own plan for a classical education. Campbell, by the way, downplays the exclusivity of a classical education. Much of his recommendations are in line with Charlotte Mason's methods - the three main departure points (in my opinion!) are CM would have the students encounter a wider variety of books, Campbell has a much greater emphasis on ancient languages than Mason, and Campbell breaks away from the CM style language arts very early to have children start the Progymnasmata around 3rd grade. I have seen a number of people online who use CM for the methods, and Campbell's recommendations for the materials and they have found this to work extremely well.
For my family, moving to the progymnasmata that early was a mistake. I, personally, don't think it is a school of writing that should be started with children that young. But when classical education was at the forefront, children didn't start it that young! I am still keeping it in the back of my mind for later, because I could see it becoming an excellent writing education for a high school age student. But earlier? Well... in our family, it took a child who delighted in writing and who had a charming "voice" and completely squelched all her desire to write and almost killed that writing voice.
This ended up being our breaking point from classical education. Mason's methods had always seemed not quite rigorous enough, not quite thorough. In the almost year and a half that I have been a CM purist (to the best of my ability!!) I have seen this amply proved wrong, and I have been delighted by what I have seen in my children. Their interest in their work, their comprehension of the material, their delight in learning and their overall sense of wonder is truly beautiful. Frankly, deciding to go all out for Charlotte Mason's methods has been the best decision I've made for our children's schooling. (besides deciding to homeschool, that is!!)
I hope this is useful - if you are interested in learning more about classical education, I definitely recommend those two books - I was able to get them from my library, perhaps you might be fortunate enough to find them there as well!
Amber
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Amber
Mom to dd (born 2002), ds (2005), ds (2008), ds (2011), dd (11/2013)
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Neptune
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| Posted: June 07 2012 at 5:57am | IP Logged
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Claire F wrote:
| I found, at least in that particular book (not necessarily in neo-Classical education as a whole), a sense of "do this at this stage or else you'll mess up!" . |
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Just a quick reply before I find time to come up with the rest.
This is the feeling I had after finishing up the first section of the book, and this feeling have been bugging me since. I think it is one of the things that sparked this conversation for me.
So no, I can say that you are not alone having understood this.
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mamaslearning
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The beauty of having all this information available is that we can apply what works well for our family. Since we are individuals, God has called us to different paths, so there is not one type of educational philosophy that fits every family. Look at the different monasteries and orders of Nuns, how different they look but they keep God at their center. That's how I view education (and I'm new to the arena and still learning).
Also, there are "how-to books" on all styles of education that can make you feel like you will mess up your child if you don't do it this or that way. Most curriculum providers, books, and other lists are trying to sell you something so of course they want you hooked into thinking you need to do it a certain way or else. Getting to the philosophy behind the methods will allow you to see that they are just one person's interpretation of how to implement the educational model.
I love listening in on these discussions as they help me to deepen my understandings and they always give me more good books to read  .
So, no real additional comments to the CM vs Classical. Just encouragement to allow yourself to grow in this journey and see your family as unique. Experiment with methods and see what works best for each child. I wish I was further along in my journey and had a better grasp on my overall philosophy, but I'm right where God needs me (even though I feel  sometimes and I really want him to just come down and say "here's your curriculum, go for it"!). I'm still experimenting and trying to find our groove.
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Lara
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Mackfam
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Amber,
I'm so glad you added those books!! I haven't yet read Campbell's book, and I'm eager to get started!
I think some of your observations are ones that I would echo, like the poor quality in early writing, and particularly in moving through the Progymnasmata so early. An emphasis on early writing has to be placed on a student if they are to master the skills of Grammar as part of a stage which is in elementary, and this would be a part of neo-Classical education that I disagree with strongly. But if you break Grammar out of the stage paradigm, and as a skill approached naturally, across the curriculum in the early years, you find that it progresses and develops quite naturally in a CM education so that it is ready for fine tuning through something like the Progymnasmata in upper forms/years.
The Progymnasmata was a part of classical rhetorical training, and simply a very methodical way of moving through teaching the skills of effective communication (written and oral, but primarily written in upper exercises). It consisted of 14 exercises that were intended to gradually increase mental muscle, so you began with fable and worked your way through the Progymnasmata.
1. fable
2. narrative
3. anecdote (chreia)
4. proverb (maxim)
5. refutation
6. confirmation
7. commonplace
8. encomium
9. invective
10. comparison
11. characterization (impersonation or ethopoeia)
12. description (ekphrasis)
13. thesis (theme)
14. defend/attack a law (deliberation)
It's easy to recognize some of these exercises as forms of reading that would be encountered quite naturally in a curriculum that covers a liberal and wide reading matter.
This is an area of CM overlap that really gives the student a step into the more formal and complex areas of the Progymnasmata (training in Rhetoric).
I think as CM educators, we actually follow the Progymnasmata in those fantastic narrations and language arts methods. Narration begins small, and often with the very first step of the Progymnasmata, narrating the fable. In a CM education though, Miss Mason's philosophy allows us the liberal use of worthy thoughts (fable, narrative, proverbs), and encourages that the child write what they know. They draw their own observations from their reading. CM discourages formal composition/rhetoric instruction until upper forms, and this would be consistent with the age that the Progymnasta was formally begun.
I know I'm not the only one that can draw a clear connection and see that in beginning with formal rhetoric in high school, a CM educated child now has the benefit of having built excellent mental muscles in attention, communication, and has read a liberal quantity so that he/she now brings a rich variety of ideas to play in his instruction and communication.
If you look at those that promote Classical Education, and I'm thinking of Andrew Kern in particular here, you will find him very highly promotional of Charlotte Mason methods and philosophy!
Well, that's a little bit of a tangent from where I wanted to go this morning, but I really wanted to take off a bit from Amber's excellent observations!
Once you begin to consider that Classical Education is a group of skills/tools that are gathered, honed, exercised and mastered across a wide body of reading living literature, all of a sudden a Classical Education becomes quite approachable, and most likely is already occurring very naturally in a CM home! You could think of the CM home as a nursery for ideas to be introduced and developed, and I think CM would agree with that. A liberal education does not ever cease - a liberal education provides the tools to learn and continue learning.
A quick word about the exclusivity of an ancient Classical Education. This, too, evolved somewhat over time. Initially, this type of education was meant for the elite and those children who were born to servants would pursue education in the servile/practical skills. After the loss of the Paideia and the Catholic Church beginning to nurture Classical Education, there was a move to offer this education to all (boys) regardless of status. This change was slow, and came about under the mantle of the Church, who was now nurturing Classical Education models.
Both Charlotte Mason and Maria Montessori were facing down a tumultuous time of change (at the height of the Industrial Revolution), and both of their educational ideas sprung from a natural recoil from the idea that those children in lesser classes needed education spoon fed to them through tiring and dull methods and books because somehow they were less capable of handling ideas and authentic, living experiences. Both of these women had great respect and love for the child as person, and I think this belief, which is rightly rooted in a Christian understanding of personhood, is what gives both these philosophies their meat and the ability to stand in a universal sense.
Today, we are in the midst of a very technologically driven world, yet because these two philosophies (CM and Montessori) are rooted in the living, unchanging idea of personhood, they can be at home with any child, at any time.
Charlotte Mason held very strongly to her belief that there could be NO liberal education without it being rooted in foundational Christian principles - a knowledge of God was of primary importance in education. Ancient Classicists held a very similar view, even those ancient Greeks whose education was initially bereft of the Christian faith. They held that virtue was an integral part of education because it formed the heart of a person and motivated action. Virtue would ensure right action, and right action would come from a person's ability to reason logically and well, therefore virtue was an integral part of education.
I'm really enjoying this conversation! I need to run for now though, and before I do, I wanted to drop in a few links and resources:
Trivium Mastery: How to Give Your Child an Authentic Classical Education at Home by Diane Lockman - This was a good book for me to start with and it was refreshing in its presentation of the practical/how-tos. I enjoyed the history in the earlier chapters and would have appreciated more footnotes citing sources. Diane has a blog, The Classical Scholar, and I find it to be just as helpful as the book. Her articles are clear and inviting. A good one to start with is Teach Three Skills Until Mastered, but do check out the many other articles. She has them compiled nicely in her top navigation bar.
The Circe Institute has a blog that I enjoy and offers a great variety of articles that I have found to be very instructive. You'll find many, many CM--Classical posts there, and among them I thought you'd find this one especially interesting: Toward a Defense of Charlotte Mason.
The author of that article is one of my favorite blog-writers, Cindy Rollins. She writes at her blog, Ordo Amoris. She writes well of their own family homeschooling style which is CM/Classical, and her practical insights as well the explanation of the philosophies are understandable, approachable and highly instructive. Read through her Charlotte Mason posts.
Another CM educator blog that I enjoy is Afterthoughts. I think you'll enjoy her article: Classical Education: Is Sayers the Only Way?. (one of my favorite articles!)
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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CrunchyMom
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Wonderful discussion! I have learned a good deal, and I can't imagine adding much of worth that hasn't already been said by Amber and Jen!
You've inspired me to actually pull Climbing Parnassus off the shelf and read it. I actually worked for the publisher right out of college and coordinated many of Tracy Lee Simmons's interviews and such , but since I was busy planning a wedding and surrounded by MANY such books, I never actually read the whole thing
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CrunchyMom
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Mackfam wrote:
| The author of that article is one of my favorite blog-writers, Cindy Rollins. She writes at her blog, Ordo Amoris. She writes well of their own family homeschooling style which is CM/Classical, and her practical insights as well the explanation of the philosophies are understandable, approachable and highly instructive. Read through her Charlotte Mason posts. |
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I love reading Cindy's blog. Always worthwhile.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CrunchyMom
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What an interesting article.
It brings to mind for me Charlotte Mason's Formidable List of Attainments for a Child of Six.
There IS a good bit of memory work emphasized here, but it is a LIVING memory work, not some parroting of vocabulary, declensions, math facts, or other tedious items out of context.
She does take advantage of the "parrot stage", but the advantage comes from laying a foundation of worthy and beautiful ideas that will likely stay with the child forever instead of verb conjugations or historical dates that may or may not be useful. This, again, is born from respecting the child as a person and not simply a parrot.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JennGM
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Loving this discussion. Pardon me if this has been answered, but I'm trying to understand the Catholic influence on classical education.
Is going back to the original ideas straight from the Greeks, or somewhere it was Christianized/baptized a bit?
When exactly is this neoclassical on a timeline?
While the Classical was appealing to me, especially thinking I'm following St. Thomas Aquinas...I was completely overwhelmed. And I couldn't get over the "filling the bucket" idea at the younger ages. Perhaps it's been done for ages, but it seemed to forced and unnatural to way a child learns. I wanted my child to be well-rounded, a "Renaissance Man" so to say, but it seemed overwhelming.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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Grace&Chaos
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Wonderful discussion ladies!!! I have to admit, I'll be the simpleton and say that this is my favorite quote in the whole discussion:
Mackfam wrote:
| ** A Charlotte Mason Education IS a Classical Education. |
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I'm reading The Story of Charlotte Mason by Essex Cholmondeley and what a sense of purpose is portrayed. I think that CM made it her life's work to make education accessible to all. She created an approach that empowered the educator in educating with a style that promotes respect for the student and the love of learning within the student. As I continue to read this book my respect for her has grown deeply. Learning about her childhood, the grassroots process, the intimate work with parents and ultimately achieving The House of Education at Ambleside is tremendous insight.
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Blessings,
Jenny
Mom to dds(00,03) and dss(05,06,08,09)
Grace in Loving Chaos
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Charlotte Mason vs classical?
