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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: March 31 2012 at 6:19am | IP Logged
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Erin wrote:
SaraP wrote:
| Most of those dresses, even the approved ones, are really, really unflattering. |
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I often think about this when I walk through the shopping centre, whatever happened to a girl thinking about what style is flattering to her. |
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I think that this is an art that we've lost, some of it with the fashion emphasizing s*xyness over loveliness, but also the fashion of comfort.
It was the sort of thing passed down from older women to younger, but even the older generations don't know how to choose styles that flatter or event clothing that fits properly. I see older women wearing clothes that do not fit well all the time.
I can think of one young lady in my aquaintence whose choices are decent, but it always looks to me to be too small for her. I think there is a notion that some have where smaller clothes make you look smaller, but if she bought her shirts a size or two bigger, she would actually look thinner AND more modest.
Also, in times past, clothes were always altered to fit the owner. And today, the vast majority of women are shaped nothing like the models used for clothing manufacturing, making it even harder to find flattering styles.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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stellamaris
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| Posted: March 31 2012 at 8:39am | IP Logged
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Interesting discussion, Jennifer!
It seems to mean that this whole area of modesty/dress is actually a symptom of something even more fundamental that is wrong with our society. The "rules" for modest dress were just a part of a larger set of social "rules" or norms for public interaction that were, more or less, founded on Christian principles. Things such as respecting your elders, honoring your guests, and dressing modestly and appropriately for events were commonly understood and followed in the past.
We can see this in Pride and Prejudice or Downton Abbey--a set of rules everyone followed for interacting. It really was helpful and eased a lot of anxiety, because everyone knew what they were supposed to do, what they could say in a given circumstance, and how to behave (when to sit, when to stand, when to leave a gathering, what to wear, etc.).
The idea arose that some of these "rules" were ridiculous, and some were, but then the baby was thrown out with the bathwater! Not only nitpicky rules were ditched, but most rules governing social interaction were relaxed or even eliminated.
The value of a rule can be seen at Mass. At Mass, you always know what to say, what to do, how to behave. It is freeing. It makes me think of the end of G.K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy, where he describes the greater freedom children have when they play in a fenced vs. an unfenced yard. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have this confidence about our behavior in other social situations? Once upon a time, people did.
As a society, we completely threw out all rules in the 60's. It was a terrible rebellion, and the effects of it are everywhere around us. Modest and appropriate dress was a casuality of that time. Today you see people wearing anything anywhere...jeans to Mass and weddings, cocktail dresses to funerals, etc.
The paradoxical trouble is, if you can wear anything and do anything at any time, then the result is that you actually don't know what to wear and what to do ever. Group think becomes your "rule"...not the best guide in any age, and positively frightening in some ages.
This is what you are seeing in the area of modest dress--dependence on the group for a norm, failure to determine what is flattering and appropriate because there are no guidelines within which to work (so "appropriate" is meaningless), a set of regulations that have no basis on anything (vs. at least a general set of Christian principles).
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to  dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: March 31 2012 at 9:23am | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| You'd think for that much money they could afford a dress that used fabric. |
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 Amen! And it better be all silk for that price!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
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JennGM
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| Posted: March 31 2012 at 10:03am | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
Erin wrote:
SaraP wrote:
| Most of those dresses, even the approved ones, are really, really unflattering. |
|
|
I often think about this when I walk through the shopping centre, whatever happened to a girl thinking about what style is flattering to her. |
|
|
I think that this is an art that we've lost, some of it with the fashion emphasizing s*xyness over loveliness, but also the fashion of comfort.
It was the sort of thing passed down from older women to younger, but even the older generations don't know how to choose styles that flatter or event clothing that fits properly. I see older women wearing clothes that do not fit well all the time.
I can think of one young lady in my aquaintence whose choices are decent, but it always looks to me to be too small for her. I think there is a notion that some have where smaller clothes make you look smaller, but if she bought her shirts a size or two bigger, she would actually look thinner AND more modest.
Also, in times past, clothes were always altered to fit the owner. And today, the vast majority of women are shaped nothing like the models used for clothing manufacturing, making it even harder to find flattering styles. |
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The herd mentality. We do need to raise our children to help form their consciences correctly and then stand on their own two feet and think for themselves. It's the age old problem "Everyone's doing it" but we have to help them realize that should not the motivating factor for decisions.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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JennGM
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| Posted: March 31 2012 at 10:06am | IP Logged
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Claire F wrote:
JennGM wrote:
| Wow. Without having Christian morality guiding us, it must be hard to reinforce or draw the line at behavior and dress code. |
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I have thought about this recently as well. I was watching the first season of the show Parenthood (on Netflix) a while back and towards the end of the season, a teenage daughter of one character started having sex with her boyfriend. The parents found out and were devastated, the father particularly so. It left me thinking - with no morality, no spiritual basis for your daughter to base her decision, what do you expect? And if you don't have any morality to cling to, and your attitude is, "she's going to do it eventually," why is it so devastating when it happens? The feel of the show was that teenage sex is just something they do - no big deal. But if that's true, why was this family so hurt by her choice?
Granted, it's a show, so it isn't real, but it got me thinking. If there's no objective morality, why do people feel the pain of violating it?
Sorry, that's kind of a tangent, but it's along the same lines I guess. |
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I think it was a good example.
We do feel the pain because these principles are ingrained even in natural law.
But to suppress them and not use objective morality one reaches these moral issues and to react or forbid it just looks like "Mom and Dad don't like it, so don't do it."
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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JennGM
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| Posted: March 31 2012 at 10:10am | IP Logged
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stellamaris wrote:
Interesting discussion, Jennifer!
It seems to mean that this whole area of modesty/dress is actually a symptom of something even more fundamental that is wrong with our society. The "rules" for modest dress were just a part of a larger set of social "rules" or norms for public interaction that were, more or less, founded on Christian principles. Things such as respecting your elders, honoring your guests, and dressing modestly and appropriately for events were commonly understood and followed in the past.
We can see this in Pride and Prejudice or Downton Abbey--a set of rules everyone followed for interacting. It really was helpful and eased a lot of anxiety, because everyone knew what they were supposed to do, what they could say in a given circumstance, and how to behave (when to sit, when to stand, when to leave a gathering, what to wear, etc.). |
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Caroline, you summed this up so nicely! I love your example!
stellamaris wrote:
| The idea arose that some of these "rules" were ridiculous, and some were, but then the baby was thrown out with the bathwater! Not only nitpicky rules were ditched, but most rules governing social interaction were relaxed or even eliminated. |
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The rules were tested, bent, and eliminated as society became more "advanced" and starting veering from Christian moral principles.[/quote]
stellamaris wrote:
The value of a rule can be seen at Mass. At Mass, you always know what to say, what to do, how to behave. It is freeing. It makes me think of the end of G.K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy, where he describes the greater freedom children have when they play in a fenced vs. an unfenced yard. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have this confidence about our behavior in other social situations? Once upon a time, people did.
As a society, we completely threw out all rules in the 60's. It was a terrible rebellion, and the effects of it are everywhere around us. Modest and appropriate dress was a casuality of that time. Today you see people wearing anything anywhere...jeans to Mass and weddings, cocktail dresses to funerals, etc.
The paradoxical trouble is, if you can wear anything and do anything at any time, then the result is that you actually don't know what to wear and what to do ever. Group think becomes your "rule"...not the best guide in any age, and positively frightening in some ages.
This is what you are seeing in the area of modest dress--dependence on the group for a norm, failure to determine what is flattering and appropriate because there are no guidelines within which to work (so "appropriate" is meaningless), a set of regulations that have no basis on anything (vs. at least a general set of Christian principles). |
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Caroline, thank you for articulating much better than I what I meant! Amen!
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: March 31 2012 at 11:01am | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
The herd mentality. We do need to raise our children to help form their consciences correctly and then stand on their own two feet and think for themselves. It's the age old problem "Everyone's doing it" but we have to help them realize that should not the motivating factor for decisions. |
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In some ways it is an age old problem, but to some extent it is a uniquely modern one. I'm reminded of the book "Hold On to Your Kids" where the author speaks extensively on the horizontal nature of peer orientation versus parent orientation.
Girls have always wanted to look "grown up" before they really ought, but it was not so long ago that in order to achieve that, a girl might sneak into her mother's closet. Remember in Rilla of Ingleside how she desperately wants to wear LONG skirts to feel grown up? Or wear her heair up? Nowadays, a girl wouldn't be caught dead in something that looked like her mother might wear it, though, in this culture that worships youth, I see lots of women who look as though they'd raided their daughter's closet. 
And of course, when one is morally relative, everything else is relative as well, meaning there is no such thing as good taste or poor, only fashionable or not.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Modest? Prom Dress for Public Schools
