| Author | |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 7:38am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Did you catch this article? For Prom, Schools Say 'No' to the Dress
Dress Codes Deem Some Styles Too Sexy; Wielding a 3-Inch Ruler
Very interesting. There is so much tolerance here, and I find it hard to see where one draws the line. There is one blazing example of a pink strapless dress which is deemed "appropriate". With all that flesh hanging out?
Wow. Without having Christian morality guiding us, it must be hard to reinforce or draw the line at behavior and dress code.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kathryn
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 24 2009
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1520
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 9:48am | IP Logged
|
|
|
One more reason I won't mind my daughter missing this "treasured" event that everyone asks about since she doesn't go to "regular" school. 
__________________
Kathryn in TX
(dd 16, ds 15, dd 8, dd 5)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 11:21am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I haven't listened to Glenn Beck in years, but to coin a phrase of his, articles like that ***make my eyes bleed*** 
Of course, what leapt out from the page for me was this
Quote:
| The average family with a high-school student spent $807 on prom last year... |
|
|
Are you KIDDING me??? The AVERAGE???
You'd think for that much money they could afford a dress that used fabric.
I do have a theory that skimpy styles are a ploy the manufacturers use because dresses without skirts or sleeves are cheaper to make and they can sell them for more. 
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kristie 4
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 20 2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1508
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 11:34am | IP Logged
|
|
|
My dear friends daughter bought a sari for her prom- I thought that was very courageous, beautiful and modest of her!
__________________
Kristie in Canada
Mom to 3 boys and one spunky princess!!
A Walk in the Woods
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 11:34am | IP Logged
|
|
|
yeah the $807 figure was very sad.. I didn't spend that much on my wedding gown! Of course I made my gown so that helped a lot with cost 
And while the "modesty rules" don't seem all that strict.. hey! they have something.. they've stopped a downward trend.. sure they haven't elevated it really but they stopped things from getting worse. And did you notice that David's is quoted as saying people are asking for dresses with more coverage? That's a big deal too because the people who make the dresses play a big role.. I'd make a dress before I'd spend huge sums or settle for a less than acceptably modest gown but there's huge numbers of people that don't have that option and will settle for less and spend more..
so rather than seeing the shortcomings in articles like this I like to see the hope in them. Hey look at that.. someone has seen the trend is wrong and is taking steps to slow it down.. and maybe the dress makers will sit up and take note and come out with more modest dresses and the trend can go the other way 
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 11:38am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I did think of it as a positive, in a very, very, small way. There's some hope...
But my point is how difficult and arbitrary some of the rules can be if they have no base. It seems harder to draw the lines.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 11:48am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I don't know, I've looked up enough on the subject to consider that lines are always difficult and arbitrary. That modesty isn't about rules anyway. That it's something that the individual expresses in their clothing and manner, a something about respect for yourself and concern for your "brother" and a belief in your value. That our bodies are not to manipulate others, to gain attention, to exert power.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 12:01pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JennGM wrote:
| But my point is how difficult and arbitrary some of the rules can be if they have no base. It seems harder to draw the lines. |
|
|
I agree. I mean, I look at some clothing choices, even those that more conservative families let their children wear, and I think, "so, what would you consider IMmodest???"
Obviously, this is an area where even those with a "base" can disagree greatly, but I think this is where stricter "rules" in the past were helpful. Just say, "no slits" or "must have sleeves" or "neckline within x inches of collar bone."
I used to think dress codes like this were unfair. For example, I had long legs, and the "x inches above the knee" meant that I was wearing much longer shorts than my petite friends. Looking back with higher standards, I think I wore things that were immodest. Anyway, my point is that while not perfect, "rules" are just easy ways to ensure that most people ARE reasonably modest. That doesn't have to mean that things falling outside of that are IMmodest, but as arbitrary as they might be, rules are helpful, especially in a school setting. It seems apparent that one cannot rely on common sense as guidance these days.
I mean, my husband's work has a dress code, for both men and women. It might seem arbitrary to say "no sandals or open toed shoes for women" since, I can think of examples of both that wouldn't seem unprofessional, but then, it is just simpler to have a rule so a boss isn't forced to make personal judgments. The rules are tools those in authority can use so that judgments can be issued in an impartial way.
For one thing, there is always the temptation to label the person more "modest" who looks better in the questionable garment. And another factor is that if I judge a person's clothing as immodest, it would seem to be judging their PERSON, i.e. their heart, as well. I might not mean to, but in practice, how do you separate the two? Rules help.
However, the fact that you NEED rules for "no cut outs" speaks volumes.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 12:41pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I was just thinking that modesty rules are in fact, arbitrary, not that they're not good.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 12:53pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JodieLyn wrote:
| I was just thinking that modesty rules are in fact, arbitrary, not that they're not good. |
|
|
Sorry. I actually cross posted the above. I hadn't seen what you wrote when I wrote it--I wasn't addressing what you wrote specifically.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 1:15pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JodieLyn wrote:
| I was just thinking that modesty rules are in fact, arbitrary, not that they're not good. |
|
|
I think we are saying similar things. But I'm saying even more so, if you have no basis for modesty, specific rules are even more arbitrary, if that can be so.
If I am operating on truths like: "Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit" and "Relations are reserved for marriage" (and understanding why) and "Even lust with the mind is wrong", I can have parameters and apply this in real life. There would be more understanding on why certain parts should be covered, and why I shouldn't wear clothing that is suggestive. It's applying Truth.
But of course, at this age, some rules/parameters have to be put in place and spelled out because the envelope is always pushed. The Church doesn't have definites on what is or isn't modest, but more abstract applications. Putting a number or a finger length or knee length is just arbitrary measurements; they are not universal rules.
The rules these schools made seem to be suggesting that private areas need to be kept covered, and also given some extra fabric so there is no easy access. How's that for simple translation?
I think a teenager doesn't always think in abstract, so I see the same in dating. The question shouldn't be "How far can I go before it's a sin?", it is good to have concrete images and specifics to apply.
I know I sound wishy-washy. Our local Catholic high school has specifics, and there are drawings or images to what is meant by no spaghetti straps, what is the neckline. So the visual presentations are good, but I also know they are based on practical applications of virtue of modesty.
Still, I find these vampy dresses and models just soo soo sad.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
KC in TX
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 05 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2621
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 2:29pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Totally off topic from what you all are discussing, but that one statement about boys keeping their shirts on, "We don't care that you work out." cracked me up.
__________________
KC,
wife to Ben (10/94),
Mama to LB ('98)
Michaela ('01)
Emma ('03)
Jordan ('05)
And, my 2 angels, Rose ('08) and Mark ('09)
The Cabbage Patch
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 3:00pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
KC in TX wrote:
| Totally off topic from what you all are discussing, but that one statement about boys keeping their shirts on, "We don't care that you work out." cracked me up. |
|
|
Me, too! Love the sarcasm.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 3:19pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JennGM wrote:
| There is one blazing example of a pink strapless dress which is deemed "appropriate". With all that flesh hanging out? |
|
|
I don't see how the image guide for appropriate fits their own guidelines, which the article quotes as
Quote:
| To deal with cleavage, the dress code asks girls to place the index finger on one side of the collarbone and the thumb on the other. "If any skin shows beneath your hand…your dress is too low-cut," the dress code reads. |
|
|
Can that pink dress possibly meet that criteria?
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Betsy
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 02 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 3:38pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
CrunchyMom wrote:
Can that pink dress possibly meet that criteria? |
|
|
I remember hearing a sensationalize article last year about some girl that got sent home for her dress. The story was really sad, and the Mother was not the least bit ashamed or remorseful for the choice! However, the irony of the story was that someone wearing the exact same dress was let in!
I am sure there are amazing discrepancies when you examine all of the dresses that will be allowed in at the actual moment!
I also think that people are blinded by "how good someone looks" vs. "did this meet the criteria" when the judging actually happens. But that is a whole can of worms in it's self with modesty! 
__________________
ImmaculataDesigns.com
When handcrafting my work, I always pray that it will raise your heart to all that is true, modest, just, holy, lovely and good fame!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 3:42pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Well, that gets to another shady area. I might have the rightly approved dress/style, but what if I'm more buxom or wearing it two sizes too small?
A skinny girl without lots of endowment will look very different than one with more.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 4:16pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lindsay the pink dress was on the ok list at a different school than the hand measurment test. The article mentions things that about 6 different schools do.. the pink dress is one and the hand measure is another.. and the pink dress rather than being low cut is "pushing up" so that the measure from the collar bone down could be met with and still have the umm overfull effect.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Claire F
Forum Pro
Joined: Sept 14 2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 272
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 5:37pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JennGM wrote:
| Wow. Without having Christian morality guiding us, it must be hard to reinforce or draw the line at behavior and dress code. |
|
|
I have thought about this recently as well. I was watching the first season of the show Parenthood (on Netflix) a while back and towards the end of the season, a teenage daughter of one character started having sex with her boyfriend. The parents found out and were devastated, the father particularly so. It left me thinking - with no morality, no spiritual basis for your daughter to base her decision, what do you expect? And if you don't have any morality to cling to, and your attitude is, "she's going to do it eventually," why is it so devastating when it happens? The feel of the show was that teenage sex is just something they do - no big deal. But if that's true, why was this family so hurt by her choice?
Granted, it's a show, so it isn't real, but it got me thinking. If there's no objective morality, why do people feel the pain of violating it?
Sorry, that's kind of a tangent, but it's along the same lines I guess.
__________________
Claire
Mom to DS 12/04, DS 5/07, DD 8/09
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SaraP
Forum All-Star
Joined: Dec 15 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 531
|
| Posted: March 30 2012 at 8:41pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Most of those dresses, even the approved ones, are really, really unflattering.
I have often thought that when talking about modesty we over-emphasize the connection to chastity and under-emphasize that it just isn't charitable to wear things that make other people uncomfortable when they look at you.
__________________
Mama to six on earth, two in heaven and two waiting in Russia. Foxberry Farm Almanac
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Erin
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: March 31 2012 at 5:38am | IP Logged
|
|
|
SaraP wrote:
| Most of those dresses, even the approved ones, are really, really unflattering. |
|
|
I often think about this when I walk through the shopping centre, whatever happened to a girl thinking about what style is flattering to her.
__________________
Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Modest? Prom Dress for Public Schools
