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lapazfarm
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I wanted to ask you ladies about particularly tough bible passages I have been struggling with lately.
Twice it is recorded (by both Matthew and Luke) that Jesus said to sell everything you have and give it to the poor if we are to follow Him.
I was discussing this with friends--wondering how a Christian responds to this-- and was surprised to hear them claim that Jesus didn't really mean it, or that He wasn't talking to us, but to a particular man, and it didn't really apply to us all today.
Hmmm...
I was under the impression that all of the words Jesus spoke, He spoke to us all, through the ages.
What do you make of this?
Was He just kidding? ( I don't think so!)
Or does He really expect this type of radical obedience of us all? (and how can that be?)
Help me out, here, please, because I really want to know. My heart is prepared to do it if I need to, but the flesh is so weak.
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Theresa
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JennGM
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It's more of a tough calling. In the context of the Gospel, he is saying to be perfect we need to do that. And he meant it. I have heard it explained that he was talking of a religious vocation, where they take the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
That is why St. Francis in starting his order made it part of the Rule to not own anything -- he was taking the Gospel literally. But that was shattering to many, and still is.
It's not obedience per se, but Jesus is calling for complete detachment depending on our state of life. Since we have children and a husband, we need to provide stability, food, clothing, shelter. There are levels of detachment and poverty we can all live. It all depends on our acceptance of grace for our own lives.
This might look different for each person. I think Father Thomas Dubay treats this very well in his Happy Are You Poor.
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MaryM
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lapazfarm wrote:
| I was discussing this with friends--wondering how a Christian responds to this-- and was surprised to hear them claim that Jesus didn't really mean it, or that He wasn't talking to us, but to a particular man, and it didn't really apply to us all today. |
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My thoughts: It only makes sense that, yes, Jesus meant what he was saying, and it does speak to all of us.
JennGM wrote:
| It's not obedience per se, but Jesus is calling for complete detachment depending on our state of life. |
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I have always understood it as detachment as well. This can definitely speak to us in that literal sense if we are consumed with material goods. But many people can have material things and even be very wealthy, yet not be attached in this way - a way that makes us not able to truly follow Christ in our lives. It is a deep reflection for us all, I think. Those tough questions always are.
I looked this up in a study Bible I have. I found it helpful.
Ignatius Catholic Study Bible wrote:
| Luke 18:22 - Jesus exposes the rich man's greatest weakness: his attachment to his earthly possessions, even the prospect of gaining eternal life fails to conquer his affections for them. Unless we become poor in spirit (Mt 5:3), wealth will have the same disastrous effect on us as it has on the rich man. Note that Zacchaeus (19:1-10) and Joseph of Arimathea (Mt 27:57) were also wealthy, yet both preferred the higher treasures of the kingdom by responding to the gospel. |
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guitarnan
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We may also be called to different types of obedience to this statement. For example, one of our parish deacons raised a family and then he and his wife began working on mission trips to an impoverished Mexican town. They involved our parish in this effort on several levels (participation, financial support, prayer support). Eventually they felt called to radically downsize their lives; they sold their home and moved to a smaller dwelling, then used the proceeds to help fund future mission trips. Our parish now has a nearly two-decade relationship with this town's people and the priests, nuns and organizations that help to support them.
Our deacon could not sell his large house until his children were grown and well-established and he was free to move and to travel in service to the poor, in accordance with both of his vocations.
I know that I look forward to the day I can spend more time helping others - I love my current vocation, don't get me wrong, but I am sure I won't be a lonely empty nester, not with so many opportunities to serve.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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lapazfarm
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Thank you, ladies for your thoughtful replies.
I have a lot to ponder this Christmas season, when it seems as if rampant materialism is everywhere and worse than ever, and all I want to do is shut it all out and concentrate on what really matters--loving one another. On days like this I'd gladly give everything I own if it meant there was a little more love of God and neighbor and a little less love of "things" in this world.
And thanks for the book recommendation, Jenn. I will begin reading it today.
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Theresa
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CrunchyMom
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Have you read Fr. Thomas Dubay's Happy Are You Poor? If not, I think it would help you not only sort your own thoughts on this but respond to others.
As Jenn said, I'm not sure it is a matter of obedience, as in because we own a house and possessions we are disobedient. However, Fr. Dubay does make it clear that the call is more radical than we are often comfortable with, and he certainly dispels the position held by your friends.
He has a chapter for families/couples as well, and gospel poverty will certainly look differently for a family than for someone called to a religious vocation. He tells the stories of St. Thomas More, who while wealthy and in the habit of delighting his family with gifts of exotic animals, would also refrain from certain practices that would normally be expected of a man of his station (drinking wine, for instance).
Anyway, I highly recommend it. It is pretty much an entire book about this passage and would probably help offer some direction in this area since it seems you desire to be more radical in this area of your faith/spiritual life.
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Lindsay
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CrunchyMom
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Oops. Missed some posts above 
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Lindsay
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lapazfarm
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guitarnan wrote:
I know that I look forward to the day I can spend more time helping others - I love my current vocation, don't get me wrong, but I am sure I won't be a lonely empty nester, not with so many opportunities to serve. |
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I feel pretty sure this is the direction I am headed as well.
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Theresa
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SeaStar
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I think Jesus is really speaking to us with that statement. I have read that the average American owns more things than all the treasures found in King Tuts tomb!
It's funny you should bring this up. Just today I read in the Gospel of Luke:
Then He said to them,
"Watch out! Be on guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."
Luke 12:15
I know that I own many more items than I need to live happily. If I am not attached to them, why do I have them? I feel like I am constantly struggling with this.
I think Jen is right in saying that we do need to provide stability for our families, and that will look different for each family.
But beyond that... what are we doing with so much stuff? And that spills over into hours spent shopping, away from family, etc
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lapazfarm
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SeaStar wrote:
But beyond that... what are we doing with so much stuff? And that spills over into hours spent shopping, away from family, etc |
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And the time spent cleaning and organizing it all! Ack!
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CrunchyMom
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lapazfarm wrote:
SeaStar wrote:
But beyond that... what are we doing with so much stuff? And that spills over into hours spent shopping, away from family, etc |
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And the time spent cleaning and organizing it all! Ack! |
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Have you read Peter Walsh's It's All Too Much? Really good book about detachment and how possessions can rob us of the life we desire--and all from a secular perspective. I think I read it alongside Happy Are You Poor.
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SeaStar
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I did read it- I liked his gentle approach.
And I totally agree about the time spent (wasted) organizing and cleaning all the time. Boo, hiss to that.
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lapazfarm
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Is it defeating the purpose if I buy a bunch of books on how to own less? 
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SeaStar
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lapazfarm wrote:
| Is it defeating the purpose if I buy a bunch of books on how to own less? |
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Oh,no- books don't count at all. They are in a different realm....
the same one with the brownies that have no calories.
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SeaStar
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Hmm.... how to own less 
In my world there are several classes of stuff
1. the stuff I like and use and want to have around (ie, books  )
2. the stuff I feel stuck with: things given to me or my dc that no one really wants or likes but have to be kept for at least awhile.
An example of this is the muffin cookbook my mother gave my for my birthday. It wasn't the one one I wanted, and she admitted this, but it was the only muffin cookbook she could buy at Barnes and Noble. It has 60 different recipes for bran muffins alone  . No one wants to own or eat from this book, and yet... how can I give it away (so soon?)
3. The stuff my children won't part with... arghh
4. The stuff I don't like but do need and have too many of... such as dust rags, brooms, scarves and hats.... all things that will wear out sooner or later, so it seems a shame to give perfectly good ones away.
Numbers 2 and 3 especially trip me up. What if Jesus had a MIL who kept knitting wool sweaters that were too wide for his children who lived in the desert? How would he gracefully handle this?
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guitarnan
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I think Our Lord would honor his MIL and hang on to the sweaters, just as I have kept every single afghan my husband's grandmother made for us...I think there are four afghans and four baby blankets. I lost count. I know she made them with love, and we have used them when we lived in chilly places. They take up a lot of space, but now that Grandma is no longer with us, each time I see them I think of our many wonderful conversations (she had a great sense of humor and a very practical outlook, both of which I really appreciated) and I try to share some of them with my children...just as I will send their afghans with them when they move out!
I have been known to throw out dust rags...since I hate dusting, I don't need too many!
Freecycle is a great place to get rid of unwanted items, no matter how weird. I've seen people give away used gift bags, unwanted food items, etc. (I tried to give away boxes and couldn't - God had another plan, as my good friend is moving away and needs every box I have!)
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kristinannie
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I have actually been praying about this exact same thing recently. God has led me to these conclusions (as of now). I do not need to sell everything and give it all to the poor. I have a family that I need to support and take care of. That said, he really stressed to me that tithing was not enough. I need to do more than tithe. I need to put money away for the future, but all extra money needs to go to the poor or to other causes. Even with this modified answer to my prayers, I am still struggling with this. I do agree with everyone who said that the issue is detachment. If money doesn't lead you into sin, you spend it wisely and give more than you can comfortably afford to the poor, I don't think there is a problem. In our world, these are very difficult things to acheive. It is something I am really working on.
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SeaStar wrote:
What if Jesus had a MIL who kept knitting wool sweaters that were too wide for his children who lived in the desert? How would he gracefully handle this?
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OK, that just cracks me up. thanks, I needed a chuckle tonight.
great discussion. and very timely. nothing to add from here, just me adding items on my "things to read and ponder after Christmas" list.
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 Viviane
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We can do no great things; only small things with great love. -- Blessed Teresa of Calcutta
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MicheleQ
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I too think it's timely. The economy is only getting worse and I see more and more people out of work.
I spent my quiet time this morning reading a good bit from Happy Are You Poor. I like that book a lot, it's so helpful for me in putting thing in proper perspective.
I just ordered another copy to loan out as mine is highlighted and underlined quite a bit.
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SusanMc
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I try to read Happy Are You Poor at least once a year...it is just that good.
As for SeaStar's list of problematic items, I just ask myself, who am I to keep this perfectly good ***** for who knows how long while I don't like/need/use it when out there is a person who could really benefit from it. To the horrors of many it is this sentiment that helped me pass along my maternity clothes, toys, books, gifts, bequests, etc. For example, my grandmother was something of a collector in her lifetime. She had a love of beautiful and fine things. Upon her death I inherited a piece of religious art sculpture. It really wasn't to my taste and sat in the closet for about a year. FInally I released it to someone else who loved it. It felt so much more honoring of my grandmother to make sure the art was where it would be loved an appreciated and not tucked away in my closet.
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Topic: A tough question
