| Author | |
MicheleQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2193
|
| Posted: March 31 2006 at 10:48pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
abcmommy wrote:
I am much less annoyed after our amazing trip to an organic dairy locally. My heavens, the cure for what ails you (or me) can be found in whole milk yogurt and a sunny afternoon with temps in the 70s apparently.  |
|
|
Unabashedly off topic here  ...but was it RAW organic yogurt? We've been drinking raw organic milk from a local Amish farm and I was just asking someone the other day how to make my own yogurt. Gosh this stuff is good. Best milk I have ever had. The cream on a gallon of milk that has been sitting for a while is almost half the container! I had to train my kids to shake it up before using it, though I will admit to the occasional tipping off the top into my coffee. 
OK, we now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion. 
Oh and just so I can be on topic. We had Lifeteen here for a very short time. Didn't like it but it didn't last anyway. We do tend to have very nice "regular" Latin rite masses here though the music can be hit or miss.
God bless!
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: April 01 2006 at 5:55am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I found this Pastoral Letter on Reverence for the Eucharist, written by the late bishop of Arlington, John Keating, to be really insightful.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
mary
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 17 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
|
| Posted: April 01 2006 at 6:34am | IP Logged
|
|
|
how lucky you all are to have so many mass choices! i would have to seriously drive to get a latin mass. in my parish, the choices are sat or sun 9am mass in a very small, moldy church or 11am mass in the 'multipurpose building' ie, gym. i cannot focus on mass in the gym while my kids push the chairs and ask about the basketball hoops and scoreboards, so we go to the 9am mass.
what i really want in a parish is a priest that loves his parishioners, is friendly and somewhat traditional. maybe next year, when we are sharing a priest with 3 other communities, i will just say that i'd love to have a priest in residence so that i could keep our daily mass routine. (there is no way we will be having daily mass at 3 different parishes.)
i have never been to a lifeteen mass before. honestly, i like hearing that the catholic church is reaching out to teens. i often think that catholics do service beautifully and fellowship poorly, especially youth fellowship. perhaps it's a midwestern 'thing,' but most of my teen friends hung out at the protestant churches because they had youth groups.
i don't know if the music at these life teen masses is inappropriate, but i do agree that attempting to reach out to teens is an important thing to do. not everyone is well-grounded in their faith at that age (certainly i wasn't). if they aren't, it's easy to get involved with other church groups and often these kids are subjects of evangelization.
what i find ironic to this topic is that music has been a source of controversy in our parish. when we got a new priest last summer, he began adding music to the mass, all appropriate, but making it last well over an hour. some members are complaining 'about the extensive use of music.' i guess there really is no way to make everyone happy.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: April 01 2006 at 9:57am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Here are some thoughts from Cardinal Ratzinger before he became Pope:
Music and Liturgy
He makes some points that ring to my mind, especially since I come from a Protestant background where emotion was sometimes used as a device to foster spiritualism, to the point where spirituality and emotional highs got confused for the same thing. It took me a long time to sort that out personally. I think emotion and excitement CAN deepen spirituality but those things are "accidents", not intrinsically connected to the value of the sacrament or the faith commitment itself. We have to be aware of the danger of that and take measures to make sure emotion and "enthuasiasm" keeps its proper place in the spiritual hierarchy.
In our area there is a tendency to push teens into the whole Lifeteen experience, to the point of making the teen masses a "requirement" for confirmation. That is heavy-handed, to me and to my teens who don't care for that kind of music. Actually, DH and I LIKE some folk music and rock, but it doesn't seem to us to be in keeping with what Mass is about.
I realize it is not that way everywhere. One of my ongoing concerns however with teenagers is that they not be put into a "teen ghetto". It is a bit like Charlotte Mason's concerns about the bright, structured Kindergarten where all the children have to wave their hands like little trees. They may enjoy it, but is it the best and most respectful for them as potential persons?
Here's the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger's writing linked above, that seems to express some of our family's "issues" with the Lifeteen mass.
Quote:
"Three developments in recent music epitomize the problems that the Church has to face when she is considering liturgical music.
First of all, there is the cultural universalization that the Church has to undertake if she wants to get beyond the boundaries of the European mind. This is the question of what inculturation should look like in the realm of sacred music if, on the one hand, the identity of Christianity is to be preserved and, on the other, its universality is to be expressed in local forms.
Then there are two developments in music itself that have their origins primarily in the West but that for a long time have affected the whole of mankind in the world culture that is being formed. Modern so-called "classical" music has maneuvered itself, with some exceptions, into an elitist ghetto, which only specialists may enter -- and even they do so with what may sometimes be mixed feelings. The music of the masses has broken loose from this and treads a very different path.
On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. "Rock", on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit's sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments. |
|
|
He goes on to mention the very real difficulties we are facing and some of the standards we ought to consider in the issue of liturgical music, while calling for "renewal from within".
Quote:
| What is to be done? Theoretical solutions are perhaps even less helpful here. There has to be renewal from within. Nevertheless, I am going to try to sum up the principles that have emerged from our look at the inner foundations of Christian sacred music. |
|
|
I think the Steubenville charismatic approach, for example is a serious attempt to "renew from within" and acknowledge our need to evangelize the teens in the context of their culture. But it gets tricky when we think how far the culture is in line with what the liturgy is about.
There's also one more thing that bedevils me as a former teen Protestant. The "Christian" rock and pop was never as GOOD as the secular rock. It was largely second-rate and sometimes 4th rate. I picked up on this as a teen and it sunk deeply into my subconscious. The only remedy, for me, was to walk into a liturgical church and hear true FIRST rate Church music -- the music of our Christian heritage. Teens pick up on quality very strongly.... at least I did. (I want to add that many musicians in the secular folk and rock world ARE fervent Christians, but these excellent musicians unfortunately don't usually get attracted to the world of "Church pop")
If Church music is a faded imitation of what musicians are doing very well in the secular music field, spirituality itself may seem a faded reflection of the sublime feelings teens get listening to their favorite rock CD, or Itune, or whatever  .
It is not an easy subject. I'm glad we can engage in it without losing sight of the real issues which Angie put so clearly.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
abcmommy
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 09 2006
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 129
|
| Posted: April 01 2006 at 10:11am | IP Logged
|
|
|
What I find I disagree with in this discussion is the implication that Lifeteen takes away from the Eucharist or is some weird way not Mass.
I read Bishop Keating's letter and what I assume stood out for many is the lines here:
Quote:
In the early years of the reform, active participation was so emphasized that quality and achievement were often gauged solely on the level of external performance singing, responding, exclaiming, proclaiming, celebrating, etc., that few checked to see if the sense of the sacred pervaded. Banners and balloons, prose and poetry, orchestration and choreography were so highlighted that people often had no good chance to adore. When gestures, vestments, movements, words, postures, singing, sights and sounds of the ritual do not express the interior awareness of the sacred, they are only clanging cymbals, not effective symbols.
|
|
|
Quote:
| . We have learned, writes Cardinal Ratzinger, that ". . .we are in such urgent need of an education toward inwardness. We need to be taught to enter into the heart of things. As far as liturgy is concerned, this is a matter of life or death." |
|
|
I can only speak for MY parish but I do not see our Lifeteen Mass as opposing either of these ideals. Whenever you have young people who are not very mature you have danger of inward being subjugated to outward, I suppose. But that seems to me a personal matter of each individual heart and not a result of the small changes in musicality relevant to the lifeteen mass.
If we are in need of the examination of the inward then we can only do that once we get people and kids into the church building and arouse in the them desire to look inward.
Quote:
| Canon 836 says it so simply: Sacred ministers are to arouse and enlighten people's faith. To arouse is to motivate the will of people; to enlighten is to further their understanding. It's no wonder that the Constitution pointed up the supreme importance of liturgical training for clergy (SC 16) who "are to be given a liturgical formation in their spiritual life." (SC 17) |
|
|
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: April 01 2006 at 7:35pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I just read through all the posts - and find myself pondering all that has been said. I don't know if lifeteen elsewhere is anything like the vision teen stuff in our parishes here. What we experienced here is not even close to what ABC mom describes. What you describe in your description of the lifeteen sounds a whole lot like most of the Masses in our area - only there isn't much reverence in the pew. The big difference for me between the Masses designed to "appeal to teens" is the more blatant disregard for the rubrics - this is very, very disturbing to me and though my oldest dd sings occassionally with the teen choir (what they sing is appropriate and not much different than what is sung at other Masses), I will not take anyone with us simply because I never know what craziness will be sprung on us next. We all go to Mass together in the AM even when the teen choir is scheduled to sing. I will accompany our dd and particpate in the 2nd Mass - and though it is a valid Mass it is a Mass that is not in conformity with the rubrics of the church and a great suffering for me. I will not take any other dc with me as I am afraid it would desensitize them to the little reverence we try to maintain and would be a source of scandal.
However, this is evidently quite different from what I hear described by many of you. At every Mass that has been geared to the teens, we have been subjected to something so jarring - examples like blaring boom box while a group of 4 teens swayed to the music (this at the Mass our 8th grader had to attend as part of Confirmation Prep.) or plays immediately after the gospel. I tend to equate all teen geared activities with the kind of stuff we have experienced. I am glad to know that this is not the case everywhere.
I think the biggest issue is the attention to the rubrics and reverence. At some point the church is supposed to come out with an approved list of hymns. We are looking for this day as it will certainly settle some of the craziness that some of us are subjected to. We are also praying for whoever our Bishop will be - still haven't gotten one since right before JP II death so we have been about a year without a Bishop.
My other concern is related to segregating ages. I really balk at that. I don't see why the teens cannot take as active a part in the Mass of the whole parish - and would really like to see this encouraged. We find it difficult that the parish always seems to expect us to divide our family up (even on Sunday) where, if we participated, we'd end up with no family time together.
My other difficulty is the coercian that is sometimes involved. Any sacramental liturgies subject us to some of this stuff. We certainly do our best to maintain reverence, attentiveness and a certain sense of humility (as in our pride it is sometimes easy to fall into stewing). I did read an editorial in Catholic World Report that talked about the need to worship - and that this is hindered whenever the rubrics are disobeyed. It rang so true - basically there is a certain expectation of what the Mass is supposed to look like (the Mass belongs to the whole people of God not to individuals and individual tastes). We use our reason for certain things - but at some point we need to be comfortable enough to know what to expect in order to let go of that critical element and really worship God. If the rubrics are ignored - even in minor ways this is robbed from us because it always leaves us critically analyzing whether or not this or that was serious enough. Usually, in reality, the problems are minor but because we are kept in uncertainty, never knowing what to expect, we can never relax that critical analysis component in order to go deeper in worship. In a sense, we are robbed of some of the benefits of the Mass (They are always offered in a perfect degree but our frame of mind and participation determines the degree to some extent to which we personally benefit). I've been thinking that if I were a Saint - perhaps I could get beyond this and of course we do the best we can in our circumstances but I am nowhere close to being a Saint and I need all the help I can get.
I guess this is a long rambling, pondering. The bottom line for us is that our family will attend and actively participate in the most reverent liturgy and the one most faithful to the rubrics as set forth in the GIRM and other documents of the church or at least the best that we can find. If that Mass is the one with guitars, it may not be my preference, but I'd rather that than the "Tridentine" we had here where the Lutheran chaplain was asked to give the homily.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: April 01 2006 at 9:49pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
abcmommy wrote:
You know, I am annoyed with the tone of this thread. I am not seeking some holy roller empty worship, nor are others who enjoy a mass with some pep.
When I said drudgery, I was NOT speaking of the validity of mass, no.
|
|
|
abcmommy: I am so sorry if I offended you, When I was saying "you" in my post, it was meant as "you all" -- and was not strictly directed at you. It was just as much directed at those who felt that LT was somehow "less than". I'm Sorry.
Erica Sanchez wrote:
Laura, we love Matt Maher!!! He was the music leader at the conference....you are so lucky!!!! At least I think so!
] |
|
|
We love him too. And yes, I think we are lucky too.
teachingmom wrote:
I attended at Lifeteen Mass at St. Tim's once again. Dh and I were shocked at the lack of reverence before and after the Mass..... auditorium style seats.....
....I doubt that many parishes across the U.S. have Lifeteen Masses with the same "rock band" feel to the music as St. Tim's in AZ..... |
|
|
Irene, I feel very, very slighted by your perceived attack on my parish. I mean, I said we went there. Yet you still had to single out St Tim's by name to malign. The church that you are saying "shocked" you is the same one where my babies were Baptized. Ouch. 
Angie Mc wrote:
These are tough issues! They keep, and have kept, some of the greatest thinkers busy for years...centuries? How about we count ourselves among these great thinkers ?
|
|
|
Thank you Angie, for trying to keep us all being nice
~Laura in AZ
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
alicegunther
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1992
|
| Posted: April 02 2006 at 7:37am | IP Logged
|
|
|
cactus mouse wrote:
| Irene, I feel very, very slighted by your perceived attack on my parish. I mean, I said we went there. Yet you still had to single out St Tim's by name to malign. The church that you are saying "shocked" you is the same one where my babies were Baptized. Ouch. |
|
|
With a thread as long as this one, it is easy to miss a detail like this. When I read your post last night, I actually needed to re-read the posts to refresh my memory as to when you mentioned St. Tim's. Please do not take any reference to St. Tim's as a personal slight toward you. It is only natural that, in a thread about Lifeteen Masses, the parish in which the program originated might come up at times during the discussion. (Some here have spoken in glowing terms about St. Tim's.)
Email is a difficult medium, and it is easy to say things with good intentions that may turn out to be hurtful to someone reading. If anyone following this discussion feels personally insulted by something that is written, please send a private message to the original poster (or to me). Almost always, the person did not mean to offend.
Many thanks!
__________________
Love, Alice
mother of seven!
  
Cottage Blessings
Brew yourself a cup of tea, and come for a visit!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
abcmommy
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 09 2006
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 129
|
| Posted: April 02 2006 at 9:20am | IP Logged
|
|
|
ALmom wrote:
I did read an editorial in Catholic World Report that talked about the need to worship - and that this is hindered whenever the rubrics are disobeyed. It rang so true - basically there is a certain expectation of what the Mass is supposed to look like (the Mass belongs to the whole people of God not to individuals and individual tastes). We use our reason for certain things - but at some point we need to be comfortable enough to know what to expect in order to let go of that critical element and really worship God. If the rubrics are ignored - even in minor ways this is robbed from us because it always leaves us critically analyzing whether or not this or that was serious enough. Usually, in reality, the problems are minor but because we are kept in uncertainty, never knowing what to expect, we can never relax that critical analysis component in order to go deeper in worship. In a sense, we are robbed of some of the benefits of the Mass (They are always offered in a perfect degree but our frame of mind and participation determines the degree to some extent to which we personally benefit). I've been thinking that if I were a Saint - perhaps I could get beyond this and of course we do the best we can in our circumstances but I am nowhere close to being a Saint and I need all the help I can get.
Janet |
|
|
Janet I wanted to address, like, EVERYTHING in your post bc it clarified for me exactly why people do take issue with Lifeteen- if you are sitting, uncomfortable in mass, never knowing what "stunt" may happen it would be very disconcerting. Not very "universal" at all, which is the real meaning behind of the catholic church.
slightly tangential, I am not entirely convinced we should have a prescribed number of hymns from which to choose bc how often can that be updated? what if a wonderful song is written that isnt included/ But on the other hand I do like when hymns I have memorised are sung- and it doesnt seem to happen as often as it used to, so maybe it would be better.
I am going to email my Pastor to ask him to address the GIRM concerns- the only issue I noticed is the ending- I want to ask him what keeps them using this ending.
Another thing noted is that some priests ask the kids to approach the altar. Our priest does this, but doesnt have them in the sanctuary, or on the altar- he asks them to step forward near the altar so they can clearly see him prepare for communion. This reminds me of children's masses when I was little where the priest let the small kids come forward to se better. Surely this isnt wrong?
The issue of segregation at mass does bother me. We were "fallen away" for a time and attended episcopal services. The feeling seemed to be much less family friendly and children at the aprish were meant to go to nursery. I think one of the best things about most catholic parishes and the teachings of the Church, is that the Church doesnt pay lipservice to being pro family, pro mother, pro child- they really are pro family and Mass, for us, is a family event.
If my dh saw a boom box in mass he would very likely pass out in the pew. I think he might agree much more with YOU ALL who are bothered by the casual atmosphere than with me- he complains about the tee shirts, the music is blah to him but he is impressed with the teen eucharistic ministers, ushers and lecters bc that does seem pretty neat- we never had teens participating to that degree growing up.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
teachingmom
Forum All-Star
Virginia Bluebells
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
|
| Posted: April 03 2006 at 4:44pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
cactus mouse wrote:
| Irene, I feel very, very slighted by your perceived attack on my parish. I mean, I said we went there. Yet you still had to single out St Tim's by name to malign. The church that you are saying "shocked" you is the same one where my babies were Baptized. Ouch. |
|
|
Dear Laura,
I've been away from the computer all weekend, so I am just now reading your reply.
I am sorry I made you feel singled out by mentioning your parish by name. I can see that I would feel the same way if someone said something negative about my parish in a public forum. As Alice wrote, I only mentioned St. Tim's by name because it is the original home of the Lifeteen program.
I should have been more sensitive in case any of our members were St. Tim's parishioners. I did not notice that you had mentioned in a prior post that you were a St. Tim's parishioner. Going back to re-read now, I see that you mentioned it and also went on to talk about your experience in the parish, so I obviously have missed entire posts in my jumping in and out of this thread. I always try to go back and pick up where I left off, but clearly I made a mistake here. I was not aware that anyone had already made it known that the original Lifeteen parish was her own parish when I posted my message.
I described my negative experience there because it related to the conversation here. That said, I see now that I did it in an uncharitable way. I'm sorry.
I'd like to add that I've also seen much good from your parish. I have a relative who was a Lifeteen adult volunteer (I think they are called something like Core Team Members?) many years ago. His faith was definitely positively affected by his time at St. Tim's. And dh also has a niece who was brought up in a home with no faith. Her experience of the Catholic faith came through grandparents and aunts and uncles and St. Tim's Lifeteen. For that I am very grateful.
__________________
~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: April 03 2006 at 5:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Irene:
I'm sorry. I shouldn't have gotten so slighted. I have been running under a very high level of stress ( we had a car accident, had to buy a new car, we need to sell our house, dh started a new job today, etc) and when I read that I took it too personally and let my emotions act before my head. 
Sorry again,
~Laura in AZ
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mary G
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5790
|
| Posted: April 03 2006 at 5:28pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
But doesn't it all come down to how the Pastor or the priests allow the celebration to occur? I'm sure LifeTeen can be done with a reverence that would put many "traditional" Masses to shame.
My biggest problem with all kinds of Masses -- and we've seen them all over the world -- is that in America, we just don't have the whole picture -- most Churches (particularly here in the South) are new construction -- and sometimes quite odd. These spaces don't lend themselves to reverential Masses -- no matter what kind is celebrated.
I've been in Churches where you couldn't tell where the Tabernacle was, or the focus was on the choir sitting behind the altar (my mom called this "theater in the round"), or the Church was made of cinder block with no windows/statues/not even Stations of the Cross!
I've been in parishes where the priests were GREAT administrators and lousy pastors, where the laity ran the parish and had their own agendas, and where the performance of the Mass took precedence over EVERYTHING else.
But, then again, I've been in churches that were converted gyms and the Mass was beautiful! One of the most lovely and moving Masses I've ever attended is held once a year in a 1910 "glasshouse/dance hall" at an old health springs resort in the Allegheny Highlands. The priest is amazing, the folks who go to the retreat all bring their own relics and sacramentals, and the place is TRANSFORMED into a very holy spot.
So is it place, people or style of liturgy -- what does make the Mass a truly reverential and moving experience. Think about it, that's a major drama occurring each time on the altar -- how can that be ALLOWED to be overshadowed?
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
guitarnan
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Maryland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10883
|
| Posted: April 03 2006 at 7:59pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mary,
You're so right. I got our weekly diocesan newspaper and almost cried at the photo of a brand-new church, just dedicated by our bishop. The outside looks like a typical WV health clinic and the inside is worse. All white, just a couple of little windows (with white curtains!) and a statue of the Blessed Mother that looks like it's levitating. The only nice part was the hand-carved crucifix. I truly hope that the worship experience in that church can eclipse the drab interior of the building.
We struggle up here with our worship space (and I struggle with our liturgy...don't know if anyone else does.) We have a small, drab building. However, we do have lots of lovely banners and altar cloths, lovingly made by parishioners, that bring the beautiful liturgical colors into our church in a very nice way. Decorating is a parish affair; various parishioners bring home-grown flowers to put in front of the altar and the Blessed Mother.
We have a "non-traditional" dismissal each and every week...not to mention many other things that don't seem to be part of the GIRM...but our pastor, who has completed much special study in liturgy, says we are doing things correctly. I have no idea what to do, because it's hard to argue with him (and we are leaving), but it's hard to attend Mass at another parish and have to explain to my daughter that she needs to kneel or stand or give the sign of peace at a different (correct) time.
I agree completely that Mass should not be segregated by age group...one of the things I've learned from my friends who've converted from other faith backgrounds is that the welcoming of children into our liturgy, regardless of age, is a big, big deal. We are truly unique in our approach to including children in worship. It's really important to welcome young children and help them understand, year by year, what is going on during Mass. (My grandmother did this for me...she would spend all kinds of time with us, explaining things about the statues, showing us how to light candles and say prayers...it was wonderful!)
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
teachingmom
Forum All-Star
Virginia Bluebells
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
|
| Posted: April 03 2006 at 10:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
cactus mouse wrote:
| I'm sorry. I shouldn't have gotten so slighted. I have been running under a very high level of stress ( we had a car accident, had to buy a new car, we need to sell our house, dh started a new job today, etc) |
|
|
I understand completely. What a lot of stress right now! Thanks for understanding my mistake too.
__________________
~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
teachingmom
Forum All-Star
Virginia Bluebells
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
|
| Posted: April 03 2006 at 11:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mary G wrote:
| But, then again, I've been in churches that were converted gyms and the Mass was beautiful! |
|
|
This is so true, Mary! I'll never forget something someone said to me back when we first started attending our parish. It was a brand new parish without a building. Mass was held in a public elementary school cafeteria. I admitted to a friend that I had some misgivings about joining the parish permanently because it would be difficult to teach my children proper reverence in a school cafeteria. She said that she witnessed more reverence toward our Lord and the Mass in that cafeteria than she had in most other Catholic Churches she had been in. Now, six years later (five of them spent in that elementary school cafeteria) I have to agree with her.
And now that we have a church building, we have both the reverent Mass and all the trappings too!
__________________
~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: April 04 2006 at 11:47am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I really think one of the huge issues in the US is the absolute confusion as to rubrics. Our personal experience has been that they are universally ignored in some way - we have never had the benefit of a parish Mass celebrated strictly according to the rubrics. This does leave us frustrated - and we have to really work hard at worshipping and resisting the temptation to whine rather than work on our own faults. We also know it is counterproductive to run to Father with every little detail - after all, he is trying his darndest to work with so many competing opinions, try to follow the mind of the church (which is not always clearly communicated to him). We try to discern what should be just offered up and what needs to be mentioned.
We have to exercise a great deal of charity in dealing with the situation. While our parishes in our area have many illicit things going on that disturb me greatly, I assume and always indicate to the dc that Father is working on these matters (also try to make sure we are looking at documents and instructions of the church as opposed to mom and dad vs the liturgical planners of the church). I also use the example of a family - when we have gotten lax over the years and realize it, we have to begin to address the problems - but we cannot do all at once - so we have to pick what we think is most important and work on correcting our children one thing at a time. Father has the same problem with his whole parish - so I will point out how Father has insisted that the Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist wait for Father or the deacon to communicate them - not help themselves off the altar. This is a huge improvement. Eventually, we assume, we will no longer have the excessive (we read the document that addresses this and let our dc come to their own conclusion that the use doesn't seem to fit what the document says - the document indicated that EM should not be seen every Sunday. The bishop and priests are also working diligently to improve catechesis. We keep some of our impatience and questions about why this book and not this other one to ourselves (this is a prudential judgement on the part of those chosing the texts and dc are not in CCD) - but if we have to use a text say when our dd had to participate in Confirmation Class - we discuss what we need to make sure she is clear on.
There are still tons of things that need correcting - and I assume Father is getting around to them as soon as he can. We try to make life easier for Father, by obeying the rubrics ourselves, not nit-picking him to death, and using prudence and tact when we feel we must bring something up.
The liturgy is primarily the responsibility of the priest so we try to be patient. However, my dc do know that the prayers of the Mass are not to be altered by any individual - even the priest and songs should not be substituted for the Psalms even though we frequently see this. When the choir goes into a rendition of the Lamb of God (that adds in unapproved strophes), we quietly pray the traditional Lamb of God (silently so it is not something anyone else would notice). We don't hold hands during the Our Father - but we do make the sign of Peace (and have to work extra hard with our youngers so that they know to shake hands and Peace of Christ (not, hello, how are you) and that it is NOT a competition to see who can shake the most hands. We prefer (personally) the shrine and the convent where this is truncated but since it is a part of the rubrics, our personal preferences are irrelevant for our participation in our parish Mass. We do not turn to face the back of the church for the entrance Processional - and are probably the only ones that don't. We genuflect before the Blessed Sacrament (not bow) even though, again we are somewhat unique here. However, when Father approached us about genuflecting before receiving Communion, we taught obedience through our humble discussion with Father - the documents were confusing - and seemingly contradictory and Father seemed to think our bishop had ordered things a certain way. We expressed our desire (in tears) to be obedient, expressed the concern about how this was undoing years of teaching that we had carefully and painstakingly done with our dc and that we had seen a letter of clarification from the Vatican. Father promised - and did- investigate, spoke with the bishop (found out that had not been his orders at all) and in a very short time - not only was this information communicated to us, but also to the whole parish in instructions for reverence before receiving Communion.
We read the Psalm in the missalette (those that can read) as it is sometimes replaced by a different Psalm or by a hymn. Songs are often doctrinely incorrect - to say nothing of the distraction of music being played through the eucharistic prayer.
If we could find something better elsewhere - it would be, imho, our obligation for our children's sake. However, since it is not possible - then obviously God has us here for something.
We are now so confused by the children's lectionary and having this at most of the daily Masses now. Since it is approved, I cannot really complain to the dc - but it is an experiment that I can have an opinion about - I think it is a very bad idea. Some people may feel that way about lifeteen (I don't know the first thing about it so cannot have much of an opinion. If it has encouraged disobedience to rubrics - then that is against it. If it has promoted reverence and helps dc become more actively involved in the church - including a joining in the other liturgies, then it is helpful. If it promotes a ghetto mentality, then it is a negative.)
I do think it is very important to keep clear what is against the mind of the church - and what is personal opinion and taste. The rubrics have to be followed for something to be a licit Mass (only the words of consecration are required for a Valid Mass). An illicit Mass, while valid, is still a huge problem.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Lifeteen Mass
