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abcmommy
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| Posted: March 29 2006 at 6:37pm | IP Logged
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You know, we may be there for Jesus but that doesnt mean the trappings are unimportant. The Eucharist isnt overshadowed by a joyous mass with people who participate together with a real spirit of faith. The Eucharist is celebrated when Mass is a real communion with the Church (after all the church means the people!)
Yes, you can offer it up, but you dont need to give in to the lack of celebration and just accept that spirit, bc it is absolutely driving people away from churches and into the arms of protestant mega churches where people celebrate with joy.
I am no Bible scholar, but I am sure that Mass is not supposed to be a grim affair.
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MacBeth
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| Posted: March 29 2006 at 9:33pm | IP Logged
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Quote:
| I am no Bible scholar, but I am sure that Mass is not supposed to be a grim affair. |
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Grim, or reverent? I suppose that one might call a Tridentine Low Mass "grim," but others appreciate the quiet beauty of the Mass.
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it is absolutely driving people away from churches and into the arms of protestant mega churches where people celebrate with joy.
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I don't buy that. Some might say--and this is debatable--that the lack of reverence is what began to drive people away. When Mass becomes a party, it will no longer matter to you which party you attend. If a protestant mega-awesome-church is more exciting than the Real Presence, there is a lack of understanding of a Faith that is more than just the trappings of a worship service.
Mother Agnes of the Sisters of Life once described Eucharistic adorers--one woman came in on her knees with arms raised and nearly convulsed in adoration  ...another parishioner came in (probably Irish  ), nodded, and knelt quietly--perhaps grimly? --in his pew. Both were doing the same thing, in their own tradition. I suspect that both would feel uncomfortable in the shoes of the other...but both understood the Real Presence.
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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Maddie
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Hi there abcmommy.I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in as a former holy roller Protestant!
I actually was drawn to the Mass because of the quiet and focus on Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. The churches I went to before my conversion, focused so much on the emotional appeal of the music, the sermon, the banners, the fellowship, etc...that I was exhausted by all the emotion it drained from me. I love my neighbor as Jesus commands me to, but I need quiet and time for reflection at Mass. I need the sacred hymns that sing of His glory, not mine.
As a side note, my hippie parents (not Catholic) thought the one LifeTeen Mass I had to go to with them, out of necessity, was pretty groovy. So hey! If that draws them into the Faith, well, I'll take it.
Anyway,I just wanted to say quiet and "grim" works for some.
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: March 29 2006 at 11:05pm | IP Logged
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abcmommy wrote:
| You know, we may be there for Jesus but that doesnt mean the trappings are unimportant. |
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Someone here shared Dr. Alice von Hildebrand's essay The Sacredness of Tradition . I printed it out and am in the process of reading it. Interesting stuff in that piece.
abcmommy wrote:
| The Eucharist isnt overshadowed by a joyous mass with people who participate together with a real spirit of faith. |
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If it's offered "with a real spirit of faith." And that's a tall 'IF'. Most times this is not the case. Our old pastor, who is a saint today, often said that the spiritual hoopla and baggage that the Protestant churches use to appeal to young people is just a ploy being played upon their emotions. And that's a dangerous thing.
I have a secret to share. I know this cause well. I've been there. Matter of fact, my dh and I met 23 years ago through the Life Teen group at our church(we'll be married 20 years this May). My secret...the Life Teen did play on our emotions. A Life Teen Retreat was not successful unless everyone was crying and lamneting their sins and weaknesses. My pastor was right.
He was right. I was wrong; but I 'thought' I was right. I was a young college student working in the church office when he tried to explain the real beauty of the Mass to me. I didn't understand what he was saying.
He was old. I was young.
He read St. Augustine and church doctrines and encyclicals and Thomas Aquinas. I read mystery stories by Mary Higgins Clark.
He had been in a death march during WWII and thrown into a prisoner of war camp. I was a child of the 60's raised in privilege and comfort.
He had led a life of learning devoted to God. I was in love and worried about what music to play at my wedding. 
It was all about me and what made me happy and spiritually invigorated. For him, it was all about God. Big difference.
Until young people realize this, they will always be looking for something bigger, better, louder, more fun, and more colorful. And it isn't their fault. We are all infiltrated with loud music, bright lights, and snazzy ceremonies. That's the world we live in. Today's children will never be completely satisfied until they find God.
Our culture of entertainment and pleasure has spoiled them (us) for anything other...for anything greater.
If we truly believe in faith that He, the Almighty, is really present in that small white host, then how will our children ever find Him amist all the music, noise, color, and ceremony?
True, the church has always been ceremonial with festivals and feast days and rich altar, etc. But there was always reverence. Always! The tone of reverence hovered above everything else and was not muffled out by spoilers.
abcmommy wrote:
| Yes, you can offer it up, but you dont need to give in to the lack of celebration and just accept that spirit, bc it is absolutely driving people away from churches and into the arms of protestant mega churches where people celebrate with joy. |
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I suspect...possibly quite foolishly...that people are driven away because they don't know what they want. They are too picky, too intune to the modern culture, too ignorant of their own faith.
They find what they want for a time at one of these mega churches, but where will they be 20 years from now? Probably searching for another booster shot.
That's why I said we must smile, even if we're the only ones smiling. Since we ARE the church, we must act in the image of Christ. Be charitable and kind. Extend a hand to those in need.
We've had personal experience with this last September. Hurricane Rita hit our area one month after Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. Despite the media's muteness, we lost a whole parish to this Hurricane. Cameron Parish was wiped out and Calcasieu Parish (where I live) was severely damaged. You know who came to our assistance, offering food, charitable works, tree and debris removal free of charge? Yep, the Baptist churches from far and wide. There were no Catholic priests to be found. No Catholic organizations were out there supporting the Catholic community.
But I couldn't rightly point the finger at my faith and say, "Those doggone Catholics don't help nobody, no one, no way." No, I had to point the finger at myself and ask, "What am I doing for others in need? What am I doing to help my fellow man? What am I doing to share my Catholic faith?"
And so it goes. What am I doing to show reverence for the Holy Eucharist at Mass? What am I doing to show a welcoming spirit to those around me at Mass. What am I doing to promote a joyful spirit? What am I doing to teach the faith and the truth? What am I doing to make this a glorious occasion for me and my family?
Our Catholic churches are a sanctuary. Mass is not a grim affair. What's grim is the world outside the church. It is the sins of us all that makes us grim. If we, who know the truths of the faith cannot share it with joy, then how can we expect others, who do not know the truths, to share it with joy?
DISCLAIMER: My experience with Life Teen was not negative. Matter of fact, before I got involved in Life Teen, I was thinking of becoming an Episcopalian once I was out from under my parents' staunch Catholic roofing. But I was involved in Life Teen because my mother was one of the sponsors.
So, in the end, I say the Holy Spirit must lead these children where It must. And if Life Teen is the way, then so be it.
My dh always wanted to become Baptist because he went to his cousin's church where fun and good music prevailed. He also had staunch Catholic parents. Life Teen is also what kept him grounded until he could discern the truths of the faith for himself.
Though both raised in the Catholic faith all our lives, we learned about our faith together. It's been a blessing in more ways than we can count.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
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Jen L.
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| Posted: March 29 2006 at 11:32pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for the post Cay -- I got a lot out of it. (BTW, Jenn M is the one who posted the Sacredness of Tradition article)
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Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
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Becky Parker
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I wish I could figure out how to do quotes...
Cay, when you said "I suspect that people are driven away because they don't know what they want. They are too picky, too intune to the modern culture, to ignorant of their own faith", it struck a cord with me. In our diocese, there is so much focus on community (not that community is bad - it is essential) but there is such a focus there that there is no reverence for the Eucharist. The children are not taught the reverence that my parents were taught. It seems that in an attempt to make the Mass enjoyable for everyone we have forgotten the most important part. A simple example is that we don't kneel during the consecration, we stand. This may not seem like a big deal, but it is. It was the kneeling, when I was a child, that taught us that this was "a BIG deal". Now the concentration seems like just another part of the Mass. No big deal.
But, in an attempt to make everbody enjoy the Mass, here in our diocese, many have left. There is no special reason to be there. I believe the people think they can get the same thing at the big protestant church and it's livelier! They're missing the whole point of the precious Sacrament.
It's an odd comparison but it is like the Catholic Schools in our diocese as well. They aren't teaching the faith. They are trying to please everybody so they can get larger enrollments. Well, you know what? People are leaving and the schools are closing like crazy. Why? It's because they can get the same thing at the public school for free!! There is no reason to send them to the Catholic School and pay for it. We've lost the whole point of a Catholic Education. Sorry to rant and rave. It has just been upsetting to me. But our diocese is changing though...slowly. Our new bishop is wonderful and trying to put things back in order.
I guess my whole point is, I don't know what a Life Teen Mass is like, but I went to many Masses when I was at Steubenville and although the music was lively, the rubrics of the Mass were followed and it was very reverent. The Eucharist was a huge deal. I think it is possible to have both, BUT, we have to keep the emphasis on the most important thing!
Becky
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cathhomeschool
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We are members of a parish whose main role is as a college ministry/outreach. Many families are parishioners there, and many, many college students. In reading this thread, two thoughts come to mind:
One -- I believe that those who leave the Catholic Church to go elsewhere never really knew the Church, for could anyone who truly believes in the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist leave? Maybe so, but I doubt it... So if you're leaving because another church has more singing, more "joy," then I feel you've missed the boat. As a true Catholic, our greatest joy should be rightly found in being in THE Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. You can't get that anywhere else. (Not saying that community attitude, friendliness of those around us, etc. isn't important -- I think these things are important, just not a reason to/not to attend the Catholic Church.)
Two -- I have been to a handful of LifeTeen Masses. Some have been tasteful and reverent, some were not. In our parish we do not have a LifeTeen Mass, but we do have some Masses that are more "lively" with praise and worship songs sung at the Recessional and Entrance, etc. The college students and high schoolers seem to really enjoy these songs and truly maintain an atmosphere of respect and praising of God. However, there are just as many college students and high schoolers at the other Masses. (I love praise and worship music too, and I truly, truly love traditional hymns as well.) The reason I mention this is that I think it is possible -- it happens weekly at our parish -- that a Mass can "appeal" to a younger generation, and yet still be very reverent and respectful and focused on God. The priest gives the same homily at all Masses. People do not gather round the altar before the consecration. Nothing "extra" is added to the Mass and nothing "removed" either. Yet the teens and young adults are there -- at ALL the Masses. Our church is packed for Mass and there is always a long line -- hours long -- for confession, even though we have confessions 3x a week. Daily Mass draws 200 young people regularly. On Ash Wednesday, our parish had 12 well attended Masses. And we're not the only game in town. There are 4 other Catholic churches in our community. We are a conservative parish with many parishioners who are excited about their faith (and many, I realize, who are not. I don't want to mislead anyone!) People here are not turned off or away by the conservativeness of the priests or the Mass. Our parish has produced more vocations to the priesthood and religious life than any other in our diocese, and it is one of the "leaders" in this area in the country. And it's not that we've drawn these people to Aggieland and therefore had a more devout group to start with. I have seen many young people go from not attending Mass and not being Catholic at all (we have a large RCIA program) to attending regularly because of the positive, orthodox example they see at St. Mary's.
I feel that I've gone a little bit OT.... sorry ya'll!  I just don't think it's as much about LifeTeen as it is about everything else. Deep down we all crave and search for the Truth. God created us and we seek Him whether we realize it or not. I think that the reason many have left the Church is because the Truth was never taught to them, so they seek it elsewhere. They just don't know what they're missing! (We all know that the R.E. and adult ed. programs at many -- most? -- parishes are not what they should be.) St. Mary's here does a great job through it's many ministries and the Mass of trying to teach that Truth, and I see the many fruits. I'll be quiet now!
BECKY!! Look at the top right corner of each post. There's a "quote" button there. Click on it and that person's post will appear in your reply window. Hope that helps!
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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folklaur
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| Posted: March 30 2006 at 10:42am | IP Logged
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Well, I wasn't going to say anymore, but this has been weighing heavily on me.
abcmommy wrote:
| It wasnt a miracle happening, it was drudgery. |
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This just isn't right. Although I am one who will speak kindly of LT, I would also never speak ill of another, VALID mass. It is a miracle, no matter how you "feel". Whether you "feel" empty because you think it is too "dressed up", or empty becasue it is too "dressed down", what anyone is "feeling" is really irrelevent, because a valid mass, is a valid Mass, is a miracle. Feelings are fleeting. The Eucharist is eternal, it is fact.
I hope that makes sense,
~Laura in AZ
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Lissa
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Laura, I don't think abcmommy meant that statement literally; my understanding is that she was speaking about the tone and feel of that particular situation, not about the *validity* of that Mass. Yes, every Mass contains a miracle, the miracle of the Eucharist; and yes, as you say, our feelings in no way alter or diminish the amazing fact of that miracle.
But I took abcmommy's comment as an observation about a church which seemed lukewarm, like some of the churches St. John addresses in Revelation. Scripture speaks of the possibility of a congregation losing sight of the miracle and merely robot-stepping through the ritual, and it was that kind of situation that I thought abcmommy was addressing.
Of course, abcmommy, if I've misinterpreted, do please correct me!
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Lissa
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teachingmom
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I first learned about Lifeteen around 1990. When I was a young Catholic youth minister, I thought it was a wonderful program, although my own program was not modeled on it. I've been to a few Lifeteen Masses at St. Timothy's in Mesa, AZ, the parish in which the program originated. At my first Lifeteen Mass many years ago, I only saw the good--upbeat music, teens who were turned on to their faith, a very active youth ministry program, etc.
Since those years, I met dh, who has taught me more about good liturgy than I learned in my graduate theology studies. I have come to see the importance of liturgical reverence and following the rubrics exactly.
During my most recent visit to AZ in 2001, I attended at Lifeteen Mass at St. Tim's once again. Dh and I were shocked at the lack of reverence before and after the Mass. One is met with a coffee bar when entering the church. We witnessed some people (who obviously don't know better) stopping BEFORE Mass to get a coffee and sitting around sipping and chatting in the auditorium style seats waiting for Mass to begin. That, coupled with the teens gathering around the altar during the consecration, was very troubling. I also found the constant instrumental background music and the non-liturgical music difficult to bear too.
That said, I have a relative who is a youth minister. He uses the Lifeteen program in his parish, and he is thoroughly orthodox, so I think the practices depend a lot on the parish, the pastor, the region of the country, and the spirituality of the youth minister. I doubt that many parishes across the U.S. have Lifeteen Masses with the same "rock band" feel to the music as St. Tim's in AZ.
I am thrilled to read that the Lifeteen program has realized their error in ignoring the rubrics in having teens gather around the altar. Hopefully, that has changed in all the Lifeteen programs across the country.
Like Becky, I have a fondness for the upbeat, yet reverent, liturgically correct Masses at Steubenville. If the Mass is reverent, and the rubrics are followed, I really have no problem with the more upbeat music, as long as it can be considered truly liturgical. In fact, as much as I love my current parish where all the Masses would be considered "High Masses" by many people, I sometimes long for the sound of a guitar and a bit faster beat in the music--not at every Mass, but as an option. (Some of you now think I'm a total liberal, but I'm really not!  )
A term I learned years ago that I think can be important to some people's faith is dynamic orthodoxy. That would mean a lively practice of the faith, while being true to the magisterium. It sounds like Janet's parish falls in this category.
The Church is Catholic. That means universal. There is room for many styles of spirituality within the confines of true orthodoxy. If Lifeteen has made changes to follow the magisterium in matters of liturgical practice and teaches in an orthodox way, I don't think we should reject it out of hand just because it is not a traditional Mass of the type many of us here prefer.
Of all the replies here, the one I found most helpful based on my limited experience with the program was Mary M.'s post back at the beginning of the thread. Thanks, Mary, for the info on changes in the national program. I hadn't been aware of that.
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~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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Angie Mc
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teachingmom wrote:
During my most recent visit to AZ in 2001, I attended at Lifeteen Mass at St. Tim's once again. Dh and I were shocked at the lack of reverence before and after the Mass....
I am thrilled to read that the Lifeteen program has realized their error in ignoring the rubrics in having teens gather around the altar. Hopefully, that has changed in all the Lifeteen programs across the country.
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More good news update, Irene. I have many devoted and well-formed Catholic homeschooling friends at St. Tim's. From what I gather from them, their parish has been going through many positive changes these last few years, in part through the beautiful guidance of the relatively new Bishop of Pheonix, Bishop Olmsted.
I will also take this time to ask for prayers for the parishioners of St. Tim's. They have faced a bitter difficulty within the past year. I'm sure that they will appreciate your charity.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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abcmommy
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You know, I am annoyed with the tone of this thread. I am not seeking some holy roller empty worship, nor are others who enjoy a mass with some pep.
When I said drudgery, I was NOT speaking of the validity of mass, no.
I was speaking of the people who stood there, never singing. Mumbling responses out of habit. Minds clearly elsewhere. I mentioned to my grandma that the atmosphere in the church was grim. that even the priest seemed bored with the service (the first sunday in advent no less!) and she said, "Yes, its always been a cold church. No one talks to one another. They go to mass and then they leave."
Anyway, I am stepping off of this thread after this bc I am too annoyed to continue this discussion but, as someone else said, Lifeteen mass is still mass as long as it follows the rubric of GIRM. If you dont like it don't go, but don't claim its an immature worship service for people who aren't reverent enough or aren't committed to the Eucharist. Obviously some teens may be wooed by a more upbeat hip mass. If mass is mass then there is no problem. Its dependant on each priest to make sure it isnt dumbed down or irreverant.
And I am pretty sure I know the difference between grim and reverant.
If you havent attended a mass of people who are going through the motions you are lucky.
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Angie Mc
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I'm thinking of the scene in It's a Wonderful Life when George Bailey is in the Savings and Loan, saying something like, "If we all just stick together, we'll be OK!"
abcmommy wrote:
| You know, I am annoyed with the tone of this thread. |
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I'm sorry you are annoyed, abcmommy. I'm sorry to anyone else who is annoyed here. There have been times when I have felt frustrated when I thought I have been misunderstood. I've been frustrated when I have read replies that initially felt judging or worse. I've also worried that I may have inadvertently frustrated someone else. "Tone" is a difficult thing to discern through online communication as I know you all know from experience. The good news is that this board has a history of assuming good intent and a reputation for charitable dialogue.
Because we have this positive history, we are able to tackle topics head-on. So, while we make every effort to be kind to each other as people, we can be very tough on topics. This "tender on the people, tough on the topic" balance is one that we meet most of the time. I especially appreciate the toughness on topics aspect of this list because I have learned so much from the charitable back and forth.
Here's my summary of how I understand this thread so far:
1. We want to be reverent at Mass.
2. We want to be knowledgable about what the Mass is.
3. Valid Masses may look different in style.
4. We want to avoid lukewarmness(or worse) at Mass.
5. We want to help others to know the Mass.
6. We LOVE our Church  and want what is best for her.
The lively part of this thread has to do with legitimate concerns about:
1. Separating parishioners based on age and other possibly arbitrary factors.
2. Music, and other aesthetics, and how they affect the Mass.
3. Liturgical abuses.
4. How best to meet the needs of people at Mass.
5. How best to keep the focus on Christ at Mass.
These are tough issues! They keep, and have kept, some of the greatest thinkers busy for years...centuries? How about we count ourselves among these great thinkers ? Well, at least among caring homeschooling moms and dads  . Thanks so much to all the contributors of this thread.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Jen L.
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Angie Mc wrote:
The good news is that this board has a history of assuming good intent and a reputation for charitable dialogue.
Because we have this positive history, we are able to tackle topics head-on. So, while we make every effort to be kind to each other as people, we can be very tough on topics. This "tender on the people, tough on the topic" balance is one that we meet most of the time. |
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I couldn't have articulated it myself, but EXACTLY!
Maybe it's because I am so familiar with this forum, but I had just been thinking this morning how awesome this thread is and how there was so much here. Thanks for boiling it down, Angie.
__________________
Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
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MacBeth
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| Posted: March 31 2006 at 3:12pm | IP Logged
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abcmommy wrote:
You know, I am annoyed with the tone of this thread. I am not seeking some holy roller empty worship, nor are others who enjoy a mass with some pep.
When I said drudgery, I was NOT speaking of the validity of mass, no. |
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Oops! Sorry! I'm sure none of us wants to annoy another. I tend to be a bit blunt, and of course, as Angie notes, there is sometimes an issue with misinterpretations  I think we know you are not questioning the validity of the Mass, but since we don't all know each other, it makes sense to clarify. Sorry if it didn't come out right .
abcmommy wrote:
| I was speaking of the people who stood there, never singing. Mumbling responses out of habit. Minds clearly elsewhere. I mentioned to my grandma that the atmosphere in the church was grim. that even the priest seemed bored with the service (the first sunday in advent no less!) and she said, "Yes, its always been a cold church. No one talks to one another. They go to mass and then they leave." |
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I agree that this seems sad. I was thinking, as I read it, however, that there was a time when Mass was a silent time, when no one in the congregation responded or sang. In a Tridentine Low Mass, the servers only respond to the priest, and the priest himself speaks quite quietly. I have heard that many folks used to say the rosary (silently) during Mass to pass the time before Communion. I wonder if folks were more or less likely to be distracted during this Mass...just thinking "out loud" on the board here, and I do not mean to be argumentative.
I was also reminded of something C. S. Lewis wrote in Letters to Malcolm. Of course, I paraphrase, since I have misplaced my copy , and he was not Catholic, but I liked his point. He complains about constant changes in the liturgy as a big distraction. It seems he did not really care much how the liturgy went, as long as it did not surprise him; and I got the impression that he used his time at church for contemplative prayer, with automated responses adding to his spiritual thought. Like the Rosary, Mass can be a form of deeper prayer, rather than just being memorized and heartless mumblings. In other words, the prayer can be internal, not external.
abcmommy wrote:
Anyway, I am stepping off of this thread after this bc I am too annoyed to continue this discussion but, as someone else said, Lifeteen mass is still mass as long as it follows the rubric of GIRM. If you dont like it don't go, but don't claim its an immature worship service for people who aren't reverent enough or aren't committed to the Eucharist. Obviously some teens may be wooed by a more upbeat hip mass. If mass is mass then there is no problem. Its dependant on each priest to make sure it isnt dumbed down or irreverant.
And I am pretty sure I know the difference between grim and reverant.
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I am sure you do. I just wanted to make sure we were all talking about the same thing (in my own blunt, annoying way)...I surely do not mean to cause you to leave the discussion.
FWIW, I enjoy many different "styles" of Mass, for many different reasons, as long as the GIRM is followed (anyone else having trouble with GIRM and grim ?). I attend Latin Mass every other week. I attend the local very reverent NO, where my daughter leads the congregation in song or contemplative music. In the summer, our beach club has a wonderful blessing--the pastor from the local parish says Mass on the beach (in the parking lot, actually). The beach clears and the Mass is packed. The collection beats the parish collection every week. But... I don't care for the canned music. It's fine and inspirational in the car, but it does lend a rock concert kind of feel to the Mass. Some folks like that, and as long as the music is liturgically correct (check the back of the seasonal missal for more info), it is in line with the GIRM.
I could go on for hours about liturgical music (double ), but I will spare you all  .
I'll just quote this passage again...
abcmommy wrote:
Obviously some teens may be wooed by a more upbeat hip mass. If mass is mass then there is no problem. |
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Here's a thought--if the Mass follows the GIRM, it is Mass, yes. But don't we also have to bring ourselves to the Eucharist? If we are coming for the music and "pep" and not the Eucharist (perhaps because of poor catechesis), is it still Mass? If our church hires an atheist organist, is he attending Mass in the same way I am? If teens are attending a Lifeteen Mass because they are looking for something upbeat and hip to do on Sunday mornings, and if they refuse to attend any other Mass, haven't we lost them? I am not saying that this happens at every Lifeteen Mass, but I do wonder how the Lifeteen Mass translates into a personal spiritual life.
And finally , don't we have to consider the rich traditions of the church, and oughtn't we bring our teens into this tradition? It makes me very sad that I often hear amazing Catholic music written for Masses only at Juilliard. What have we lost? What have we gained? If we replace the musical tradition of the church with mediocre music, and say, "At least they are going to Mass and singing," (not quoting anyone here, just thinking out loud again ), how is that different from letting a teen read twaddle and saying, "at least he's reading," or letting a teen eat candy and saying, "Well, she refuses to eat what's good for her, and she has to eat something..."?
(I am moving the soapbox to the kitchen so I can reach some ceiling fixtures).
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Mary G
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The sad part about all the different kinds of liturgy is that it makes it so easy to lose sight of the LITURGY and look at the performances. One thing I can't stand that has happened over the past 20 years or so is the choir being moved front and center near the altar.  And this can happen with ANY style liturgy.
But I tend to be WAY too judgemental and outspoken, so please forgive me kind forum-friends if I have offended any of you.
Blessings to one and all!
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Erica Sanchez
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Mary G wrote:
| The sad part about all the different kinds of liturgy is that it makes it so easy to lose sight of the LITURGY and look at the performances. |
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Mary, this is such good insight. It makes me think of our adult, very popular, has been all over, including the Vatican, choir. They sing at the most formal Mass at our Mission (incense, etc.) and in general are very traditional.....but very "showy" at times....like a performance. And, don't even get me started on the folk group at another Mass! So, like we all know, all the crud that just makes most of us cringe really can go beyond the teen Masses.
I wanted to add a few comments that might be encouraging as far as the teens and Mass go. Most of you know we were youth ministers for years and we just love teens (don't have any of our own yet, so we'll get back to you in a few years ). Anyway, without completely rambling:
- We've never been to an actual LifeTeen Mass, so I can't comment about actual abuses. From everything I had heard about it, it just never sounded appealing to me, which seems weird being a youth minister. I can really relate with Irene's post about liking upbeat music and everything. It sounds like each LifeTeen Mass is a bit different and most are probably great!
- What we have been to is the Steubenville Youth Conferences. I think I am correct in saying that LifeTeen is somewhat of a partner in these conferences, most definitely the ones in Arizona and now California. I don't know if the Masses at the Conference are actual LifeTeen Masses, but this is what I really wanted to share:
I have very rarely witnessed a large group of adults more reverant, more focused on the Mass and, specifically the Eucharist, than the teens at these conferences. We were 3,000+ teens and adults in a huge arena and you could have heard a pin drop during the Consecration! It was awesome! Everyone on their knees and then total silence and order during Communion! I will never forget it! I must say the music was toned down for the Masses in comparison to the other singing/music/praise and worship times.
So something is happening - I don't know if it is LifeTeen or Steubenville or the combination - but the fruits of these conferences are, for our youth anyway, attendance at daily Mass and Adoration. I'm fairly certain this is true for most who attend the conferences and I'm fairly certain the Eucharist is a large focus for LifeTeen. So can they have both - times of totally rockin' praise and worship outside of Mass and then a fairly quite, humble, no music daily Mass? For some of our teens, this is what they are doing. And to see these teens choose daily Mass and Adoration for themselves.....wow!
- We did establish a monthly Youth Mass at our parish (not LifeTeen). At first the music was a bit too praise and worshipish, even clapping. It didn't feel right....and I love, love, love praise and worship music...but at Mass....no. Then I received a great article about the differences between Protestant praise and worship type music and traditional Catholic music. Mainly, the words in the Protestant type music are very "I" centered. They focus on that personal relationship with God/Jesus. Words in tradional Catholic type music are much more "we" centered and, of course, relevant to a particular part of the Mass. Does that make sense? I'm not sure I'm being clear as I don't have the article in front of me. So, anyway, while praise and worship is great for some things, like a huge gathering of teens or in the car or whatever, it doesn't fit well with our Mass, regardless of personal taste.
I'm on the fence about our Youth Masses (they still continue) as I truly don't like the idea of segregated Masses. I don't like children's Masses where the kids all leave during part of it, either. But, a benefit of the once a month Youth Mass was we were able to get teens involved in Mass as lectures, ushers, singers. Some truly do go on to continue these ministries at the Mass they regularly attend with their families.
Totally rambled...... And, I can't even quite put my thoughts in writing at the moment, even though I've been thinking about this thread for a few days now, so I don't know how much sense I'm even making
Angie, I really liked how you summarized the entire thread. Thank you for doing that!!
Laura, we love Matt Maher!!! He was the music leader at the conference....you are so lucky!!!! At least I think so!
In case anyone wanted to check out their website: Life Teen
Also, youth conferences sponsored by Steubenville: Franciscan Youth Conferences
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(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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abcmommy
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I am much less annoyed after our amazing trip to an organic dairy locally. My heavens, the cure for what ails you (or me) can be found in whole milk yogurt and a sunny afternoon with temps in the 70s apparently. I had suspected as much and now my N of 1 proves it.
I will work backwards bc I do it better than forwards.
ITA (I totally agree) about segregation in Mass being a bad/ dangerous precedent. Someone childfree may want shut of me and my noisy kids!
I havent been to any sort of different kinds of Mass, not byzantine, tridentine or Latin or Greek Orthodox or any other. I have been to normal american pie (?) post vatican 2 mass. I am too ignorant to know which -tine it is officially. I have been to Life TEEN and enjoyed it at my parish, where we dont have any rock n roll, weird sound effects during anything or lights dimming (tho one time a lady leaned on the light switch and turned thm down by accident- she was standing at the back bc it was full that night.) We did used to have someone ring chimes at Mass in St John's during preparation for the communion ("he took the bread etc..." jingle jingle jingle IIRC). what was that for? they dont jingle here.
If a teen attends any mass at all, he is better off than the teen who refuses to go (I speak from experience!) And even a hip mass is still not *that* hip, so some part of that teen is longing for the Eucharist!
I do think its a shame that I NEVER (well, almost never) hear the glorious classical music composed for the Church thru out the ages in mass. I guess we need to encourage more classical musicians to share their talents. My mom was a classical violinist and she played at mass when they did classical music sometimes.
I think music has a fine history of accentuating the beautiful traditions of catholicism, I am all for new hymns or songs that continue in the same vein, and agree that they should NOT supplant the Eucharist as the focus of Mass, for kids or adults.
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MichelleW
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Slightly off topic (but only slightly), I used to teach 9th grade in the Mesa School District. It was extremely OBVIOUS to me which kids went to St. Tim's. They were the kids who befriended the little 7th graders, who spoke kindly to the nerds who were following them around, who placed their books UNDER their seats during lunch instead of on the seat next to them so that anyone would feel welcome to sit beside them, who volunteered for Student Government because they had noticed an injustice and hoped to fix it. When they stayed after to chat they often wanted to tell me about some beautiful truth they had just understood about their Faith. A church that produces fruit like what I witnessed has got to be on the right track. I have no doubt that right now those kids are faithfully raising families of their own and passing along the love and joy that is Our Faith.
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LisaR
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I got to know many of the St Tim's Lifeteeners during my six years in Steubenville in the 1990's. Sadly , some of them left the Catholic faith for a more "vibrant" worship with Assembly of God and Vineyard churches.
In our Diocese, at least as far back as 1998- The Bishop modified what could happen at a LifeTeen Mass. They never were allowed around the altar- the ending was the proper one, and in general it was "toned down".
Because of Dh's work in the Diocese, we really feel it our duty to attend the Church in our neighborhood and not shop around. Sometimes we long for the good old days where it was like it or lump it and you just went to the Church down the street. It must be a Protestant influence here in the US that helps prompt us to want to shop around.
That being said- we love attending the Byzantine, Tridentine, Maronite (Lebanese) (suppose that falls under Byzantine, but it is so different) and Community of St John Masses. It is GOOD to be Catholic!
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dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
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many little saints in heaven!
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Lifeteen Mass
