| Author | |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2010 at 3:08pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
hylabrook wrote:
| I share your awe at the Ephesians passage, Erin. It makes me sad when people shy away from using this at their wedding Mass because they think it's s*xist. So sad that the depth of meaning is glossed over! |
|
|
Erin wrote:
Actually Nancy, dh and I had it at our wedding 
There were certainly some raised eyebrows, I think unfortunately many home in and focus on verse 22 and don't look at the passage in entirety. |
|
|
Yes, exactly! This passage is just awe-inspiring! I picked 1 Cor 13, but it was a struggle to choose.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2010 at 3:09pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I was at a wedding where it was used and I heard a lady near me comment on it (after the wedding as we were filing out) and I said basically what Jenn said.. that the men have to love us like Christ loved the Church and that I think that's probably much the harder part.. and she actually looked thoughtful and nodded agreement 
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CatholicMommy
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2007
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1254
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2010 at 8:15pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
LLMom wrote:
| I haven't read all of the replies, and I don't have time to post a long "Catholic" perspective, but I did want to mention to be careful of reading protestant info on this topic. Many of them go way over the top and believe in a philosophy called Patriarchy that is very harmful, taking submission to an extreme. |
|
|
I second this. I have read/studied many wonderful Protestant resources on homemaking, headship, virtuous womanhood, etc (some from before I was officially Catholic, some since then because I couldn't find Catholic sources or because the gentleman courting me pointed them out). But I have to be really careful about certain parts because of the whole "loss of feminine dignity" that is perpetuated in some of them. Very, very sad.
And likely a cause for the misinterpretation of the Ephesians passage even in our own churches.
__________________
Garden of Francis
HS Elementary Montessori Training
Montessori Nuggets
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2010 at 8:41pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
CatholicMommy wrote:
LLMom wrote:
| I haven't read all of the replies, and I don't have time to post a long "Catholic" perspective, but I did want to mention to be careful of reading protestant info on this topic. Many of them go way over the top and believe in a philosophy called Patriarchy that is very harmful, taking submission to an extreme. |
|
|
I second this. I have read/studied many wonderful Protestant resources on homemaking, headship, virtuous womanhood, etc (some from before I was officially Catholic, some since then because I couldn't find Catholic sources or because the gentleman courting me pointed them out). But I have to be really careful about certain parts because of the whole "loss of feminine dignity" that is perpetuated in some of them. Very, very sad.
And likely a cause for the misinterpretation of the Ephesians passage even in our own churches.
|
|
|
My own theory is that a big way Protestants lose the balance in all this is through their rejection of Marian theology. In a reaction against Catholicism, many ignore her role utterly, and without Mary as a model of feminine dignity, it becomes easy to throw it out or completely misunderstand it altogether.
I also think that rejection of Marian theology influences a lot of other differences (like contraception, in vitro fertilization, etc...), but that's a whole 'nother topic
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2010 at 8:46pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
You also have to battle the nazi-feminism that says "women's work" is somehow demeaning or less important than "men's work".
I'd like to see my family be able to eat as well as we do without my "women's work" of shopping sales and cooking etc and my dh is the first to point that out 
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
jillian
Forum Pro
Joined: June 06 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 233
|
| Posted: Dec 02 2010 at 11:18pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
What I am reading is from a more or less secular site. I don't subscribe to the "loss of independence" Protestant view. I believe in consensual Head of Household philosophy, one where there is a certain level of equality, which for us means that DH will take over things like child-care, domestic tasks and such if he feels so inclined or I can't for whatever reason. I try to embody the "heart of the home" philosophy though.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Angie Mc
Board Moderator
Joined: Jan 31 2005
Location: Arizona
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 11400
|
| Posted: Dec 03 2010 at 12:29pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
While praying the sorrowful mysteries this morning, I thought...
Whether a resource emphasizes traditional roles or the dignity of both persons within a marriage, I believe that both are trying to address suffering within marriage...trying to find a way to peace and harmony within marriage. But each offers only a piece of the puzzle. Each is incomplete.
A Catholic perspective of marriage, to include the roles of head and heart, includes the most comprehensive and truthful treatment of suffering...the mystery of suffering. Every husband and every wife knows the agony of the garden. We know the pleading, "'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass Me by."
In early marriage, we know the scourging at the pillar. We are full of hope that we can solve all problems, fix all hurts. We get slashed, it gets our attention. Choosing something common and simple, a young bride walks into a bathroom and sees that her dh has left a tube of toothpaste on the counter without the cap, dripping a glob of mess. Slash. This doesn't fit with her perfect picture of happiness. She puts away the toothpaste for him or she asks him to put it away. It either doesn't happen again (problem fixed!) or it happens again. Slash. And again. Slash. And again. Slash.
As the years go by, we find that we feel we have fixed many problems (we may forget to give God credit) and stopped much slashing. But we have not rid ourselves of suffering. The easier, lesser problems have mostly gone away, leaving the tough stuff, the tenacious stuff....the crown of thorns. It dawns on us that God may be asking us to carry this cross to our death. Deep breath.
Crowns of thorns come in all shapes and sizes. We may be dealing with genetic predispositions that appear to be hard-wired, deeply entrenched childhood hurts, problems handed down through generations, engrained bad habits, mental illness, physical disease and injury, addictions, cultural and environmental undermining. We wonder, "Why can't we change this so that we will not suffer? What is at the bottom of our inability to fix this problem?" Serious suffering.
This is where emphasizing traditional roles OR the dignity of both persons within a marriage, falls short. Each isn't big enough. AND WE KNOW IT because we continue to SUFFER! This is why Catholic teaching, based on Sacred Scripture and Tradition, offers so much HOPE! God and His Church are BIG and offers the FULLNESS we need! We have many ways to handle and value suffering. We have Divine Mercy. We have the saints and their examples of the crowns of thorns that they wore in their life times (Bernadette and her poor academics, Augstine and his prideful intellect, Therese and her silly desire for a stocking,...and since I'm reading Chesterton, although he isn't officially a saint, I'll add, his weight.) We have the hope of miracles. We are supported to not be afraid. We have Mother Mary to comfort us. We have mystery and trust in His Divine Providence.
Marriage is about doing the best we can with the truth of our situation. We can be responsible and accept our crosses. We can be patient as we grow and mature. We can show great mercy and tenderness to our spouse and ourself as needed. We can be rightfully content as we draw ever closer to God for the salvation of our souls...even when, especially when, we feel failure and suffer.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
About Me
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Dec 03 2010 at 3:58pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Angie Mc wrote:
Whether a resource emphasizes traditional roles or the dignity of both persons within a marriage, I believe that both are trying to address suffering within marriage...trying to find a way to peace and harmony within marriage. But each offers only a piece of the puzzle. Each is incomplete.
A Catholic perspective of marriage, to include the roles of head and heart, includes the most comprehensive and truthful treatment of suffering...the mystery of suffering. |
|
|
To follow this analogy of head and heart, it is important to note that the one cannot be without the other. Both valued. Both needed. Both distinct. The head operates in clarity and functions because of the life giving function of the heart. The heart sustains and functions rhythmically, providing life to other members of the body because the head prompts it, directing and communicating its desire. Likewise, in our marriage, we mirror this function which is so beautifully and perfectly ordered and authored by the Giver of Life.
While my own reflection isn't as much about the practical division of roles within a Catholic marriage, I have come to appreciate and be so grateful for the grace of God which invites me, prompts me, and nurtures me to grow into an awareness of a Sacramental marriage.
As part of the FULLNESS of our faith, we are blessed to know that the Sacrament of Matrimony is a SACRAMENT, and as such, a conduit of God's grace! Grace! What an enormous blessing! How different my marriage today is from my marriage 18 years ago...because of God's grace. How different my role is...and the respect with which I offer my husband as head of our home...because of God's grace.
CCC (emphasis mine) wrote:
1641 "By reason of their state in life and of their order, [Christian spouses] have their own special gifts in the People of God."145 This grace proper to the sacrament of Matrimony is intended to perfect the couple's love and to strengthen their indissoluble unity. By this grace they "help one another to attain holiness in their married life and in welcoming and educating their children."146
1642 Christ is the source of this grace. |
|
|
Wow! Grace, mercifully and freely given in abundance to nurture a Sacramental marriage. And with that grace comes the responsibility to "help one another to attain holiness in their married life". I can't write that without trembling. I...weak, proud, selfish...must help him ATTAIN HOLINESS????? Really? How do I do that? For me, it meant letting go of some of those things I thought proper to my role in this marriage. It meant (obviously...but painfully) letting go of my pride and those things I was so certain I did better. It meant immersing myself in the role of the heart, and helping my husband attain holiness by supporting him, helping him, believing in him, respecting him, praying for him in his role.
In further contemplating the rich words of the Church from the Catechism on the Sacrament of Matrimony I'm moved and given a little more direction:
CCC (emphasis mine) wrote:
| 1605 Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another: "It is not good that the man should be alone."92 The woman, "flesh of his flesh," his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a "helpmate"; she thus represents God from whom comes our help.93 "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."94 The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been "in the beginning": "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."95 |
|
|
woman...
...his equal...a helpmate...no longer two...but one.
Now, I know your question was originally about the role of the head of the home, but can we not see much about the head if we understand more what the Church says about us, the heart.
Growing into my role as the heart of our family has not been easy for me. My idea and understanding of marriage, my role, my husband's role...were shallow, without depth or understanding, and certainly did not seek to help him attain holiness. My husband and I grew...are growing...together...with grace.
We grew into our roles, a little at a time.
Pruning.
And sometimes it was/is painful. Very painful. I felt betrayed by my own ideas.
Scourging.
I let go of my proud, selfish ideas which lacked a respect for the enormity and authority of the role of the head.
Crown of thorns.
I still have to let go...again...and again...every day. I grew into this new idea of loving by serving. And that's not always (ever) easy...or pretty...or tidy.
Carrying of the Cross.
Love undertaken Sacramentally will yield suffering and pruning...of habits...of ideas...of roles. It seems paradoxical, but it's true. There is a mentality/philosophy in some circles that would propose that God rewards goodness with lack of suffering, that somehow suffering is not blessing, but that simply isn't so. He is always drawing spouses closer - closer to Him and closer to one another - and He does so in a marriage in many ways and with great mystery. At times this is through joyful times. Other times it is done gently and tenderly through the Cross. The more you open yourself to love, the closer you are to suffering. In following Christ in our marriage, there is no other way but through the Cross.
Hand in hand with suffering He generously supplies graces that seem to spill over in their abundance. This confident assurance, the assurance of grace mercifully provided to meet the day's needs and unique sufferings is often missing in conversations outside of the fullness and richness offered us through our Catholic faith.
In discussing the different roles within a Catholic marriage, in talking about living out a Sacramental Catholic marriage, one cannot leave out the great role of suffering, and the enormous blessing it is. So much of this suffering within the Sacrament of Marriage is mystery: individual, thoughtfully gifted to a couple by God, taking into account the ordinary and the extra-ordinary circumstances of their marriage, gifted in an intimate way to prompt and invite that couple to draw closer to His will. I don't want to strip the beauty and the mystery from that; for this is sacred ground. Suffice to say that suffering within marriage is reality; grace is abundant. Thanks be to God for His grace.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hylabrook1
Forum Moderator
Joined: July 09 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5980
|
| Posted: Dec 03 2010 at 4:36pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Wow, Angie and Jen. So much to ponder. Thank you for such beautiful, true perspectives. Printing these out to bring to prayer.
Peace,
Nancy
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Angie Mc
Board Moderator
Joined: Jan 31 2005
Location: Arizona
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 11400
|
| Posted: Dec 03 2010 at 5:37pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Erin wrote:
| Angie, I'm very intrigued in your journey, wow! I can only imagine the personal growth and maturity that path has taken. |
|
|
That's a positive take on it  . "I can only imagine the pile of humble pie you've eaten and the amount of 2yo tantrums you have doled out over the years" would have worked, too  .
Mackfam wrote:
| It seems paradoxical, but it's true. There is a mentality/philosophy in some circles that would propose that God rewards goodness with lack of suffering, that somehow suffering is not blessing, but that simply isn't so. |
|
|
I burst into  upon reading this part, Jen. "It simply isn't so." It simply isn't the truth. What a relief...a bittersweet relief. Within the *mystery* of marriage, especially in suffering, is exactly where I am given the opportunity to show God that I TRUST Him, over and over again.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
About Me
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
albeto
Forum Pro
Joined: March 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
|
| Posted: Dec 04 2010 at 12:34pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
CrunchyMom wrote:
So, FOR ME, submitting to each other in the way scripture describes is about sacrificing the parts of ourselves that would otherwise dominate over the other person or abandon the other person. Love by definition is sacrificial, and in describing a holy marriage, scripture outlines the dominate sacrifices each will be called to make in order to demonstrate that love. |
|
|
Thank you so much for this. All of it. This is the first time, I must admit, that this idea of a "submissive wife" makes sense. Not only does it make sense, it's inspiring. Thank you for sharing this.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Veronika
Forum Rookie
Joined: April 23 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 57
|
| Posted: Dec 04 2010 at 6:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
What a wonderful discussion! If I can humbly add my 2 cents? If we think of our families as patterned after the Holy Trinity, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit = Dad, Mom & children) it all becomes clearer. Just as Christ sought to do the will of His Heavenly Father, even though He and the Father are One, so must we wives seek the will of our husbands to insure peace in our domestic churches, even though we, through our marriage have become "one". Christ would never seek his own will, even when it came down to the ultimate sacrifice of his very life. It must be that important.
Also, I believe our children learn a valuable lesson about the goodness of our Heavenly Father by seeing how we trust our husbands. Having not held a paying job since the birth of our oldest (16), it was truly difficult for me to get used to the idea of not having money or "belongings" of my own, since I worked for over 10 years before that and was quite self-sufficient! Once we had children I began to tell them that nothing in the house belonged to me or to them, it all was provided by their father, who shared it all completely with us because he loves us and wants us to be happy. This became a way for me to teach them about the love God has for us all, and how he will provide for those who love Him. If we truly understand that our place in the family is meant to be sacrificial, like Christ, but so very, very necessary and powerful, in teaching the next generation of Catholics about the nature of God, we will feel better about embracing our "poverty" and can more joyfully submit to the will of the Father...and father...
God bless!
__________________
Veronika
devoted wife and Apostolate of Holy Motherhood Mom of 5 precious children: daughter '94, son '96, son '98, and twin daughters '02...
and one little girl in heaven
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
albeto
Forum Pro
Joined: March 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
|
| Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 10:06am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Veronika wrote:
| What a wonderful discussion! If I can humbly add my 2 cents? If we think of our families as patterned after the Holy Trinity, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit = Dad, Mom & children) it all becomes clearer. Just as Christ sought to do the will of His Heavenly Father, even though He and the Father are One, so must we wives seek the will of our husbands to insure peace in our domestic churches, even though we, through our marriage have become "one". |
|
|
Can we talk about this a bit? This is how I had understood "wifely submissiveness" to be, but I have a hard time with the logistics of this ideal. I think that by "seeking the wills of our husbands," it is suggested that we suppress our own intellect and reason when our conclusions contradict our husbands' and that sits poorly with me. It may promote peace in the home, but that's because conflict is worked out by submissiveness. What does that teach our girls? That their thoughts and reasons are less valuable? What does it teach our boys? That they ought to expect to be obeyed?
I don't mean to target you, Veronika, only to explore this idea (which is very popular). It doesn't sit well with me and so if I might be so forward as to deflect the conversation in this direction, I hope I don't offend or irritate you for pulling your comment out. I should probably know a better way to go about this without putting you in the spotlight. My apologies for my boldness.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
albeto
Forum Pro
Joined: March 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
|
| Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 10:07am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Angie Mc wrote:
While praying the sorrowful mysteries this morning, I thought...
|
|
|
I've been thinking about this since you first posted it. I'm so glad you did. It's really been on my mind and has been comforting for me.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MicheleQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2193
|
| Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 10:44am | IP Logged
|
|
|
albeto wrote:
Veronika wrote:
| What a wonderful discussion! If I can humbly add my 2 cents? If we think of our families as patterned after the Holy Trinity, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit = Dad, Mom & children) it all becomes clearer. Just as Christ sought to do the will of His Heavenly Father, even though He and the Father are One, so must we wives seek the will of our husbands to insure peace in our domestic churches, even though we, through our marriage have become "one". |
|
|
Can we talk about this a bit? This is how I had understood "wifely submissiveness" to be, but I have a hard time with the logistics of this ideal. I think that by "seeking the wills of our husbands," it is suggested that we suppress our own intellect and reason when our conclusions contradict our husbands' and that sits poorly with me. It may promote peace in the home, but that's because conflict is worked out by submissiveness. What does that teach our girls? That their thoughts and reasons are less valuable? What does it teach our boys? That they ought to expect to be obeyed?
I don't mean to target you, Veronika, only to explore this idea (which is very popular). It doesn't sit well with me and so if I might be so forward as to deflect the conversation in this direction, I hope I don't offend or irritate you for pulling your comment out. I should probably know a better way to go about this without putting you in the spotlight. My apologies for my boldness.
|
|
|
There is no such difficulty in the Trinity. The Father and the Son and the Spirit are ONE. If we find ourselves in opposition to our husbands it is not simply a matter of being submissive but of resolving why. Of coming together and finding a way to agree or at least be at peace with disagreeing (we can of course only take the analogy of the Trinity so far).
Unity isn't unity when it is just on the surface. I read recently a quote from Pope Benedict that spoke to that point precisely. It is about the Church but I believe it applies here as well; "The summons to the peace of Christ is not to be confused with a longing for that good nature that is, in reality, only weakness, that would like to shield itself from the vexations that arise when one openly defends his convictions. The demand for unity in the Church is not, then, to be identified with the wish that everyone would agree about everything. Just being together is not unity, but ultimately an evasion of it. The admonition, ‘Be nice to one another’, is certainly not to be scorned, but it does not reach the height of the Gospel because it spares us the effort of setting out on the way to truth and so of really coming together."
This is not easy but it is important because no we do not want to teach our daughters that their thoughts and reasons are less valid.
No time for more right now. I am running out the door but I do hope this makes sense.
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 12:00pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
albeto wrote:
Veronika wrote:
| What a wonderful discussion! If I can humbly add my 2 cents? If we think of our families as patterned after the Holy Trinity, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit = Dad, Mom & children) it all becomes clearer. Just as Christ sought to do the will of His Heavenly Father, even though He and the Father are One, so must we wives seek the will of our husbands to insure peace in our domestic churches, even though we, through our marriage have become "one". |
|
|
Can we talk about this a bit? This is how I had understood "wifely submissiveness" to be, but I have a hard time with the logistics of this ideal. I think that by "seeking the wills of our husbands," it is suggested that we suppress our own intellect and reason when our conclusions contradict our husbands' and that sits poorly with me. It may promote peace in the home, but that's because conflict is worked out by submissiveness. What does that teach our girls? That their thoughts and reasons are less valuable? What does it teach our boys? That they ought to expect to be obeyed?
I don't mean to target you, Veronika, only to explore this idea (which is very popular). It doesn't sit well with me and so if I might be so forward as to deflect the conversation in this direction, I hope I don't offend or irritate you for pulling your comment out. I should probably know a better way to go about this without putting you in the spotlight. My apologies for my boldness.
|
|
|
I find, to, that in practice, it comes back to what I said about sacrifice. If it is a moral issue, there is no question. I will not submit to my husband's desires by sinning! However, that has never been the case for me, and I don't see it being the case when both couples are actively trying to follow their roles. If there is a question here, I would think consulting a faithful priest would be in order.
More often, it comes to a question of opinion where both could be seen as equally valid. Where do we spend Christmas? What color do we paint the living room? What do we serve for dessert when company comes over? How do we educate our children? Do we need a new car, house, or appliance?
I have found that, in these situations, even when I feel my reasons, taste, convenience, and opinions are better, if after discussing it, we are still at odds, I see my roll as being that which submits to the other. I can't say I always do this gracefully in practice, but in theory, its what I seek to do. It is not that my thoughts are less valid, its that making the final decision is just not my job.
And to reiterate what Nancy said before, it is freeing! It takes a burden from me as opposed to demeaning me in any way. We discuss things. My husband seeks my counsel. It is rare we don't come to a unified place where I'm not completely satisfied! A husband's role isn't to be a bully and mine isn't to be a doormat. However, when things fall outside that ideal or norm, submission is a sacrifice I feel I am called to make.
And if I'm honest with myself, fighting that is probably more painful than the sacrifice would have initially been.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 12:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
albeto wrote:
| What does it teach our boys? That they ought to expect to be obeyed? |
|
|
Just to touch on this specifically, I've never perceived this to be the impression my boys get. My husband is my biggest advocate, and if he gets wind of disrespect or disobedience of me, it is thoroughly dealt with. I do often direct decisions to Dad. "We'll have to ask Dad about that." "What did Dad tell you to do?" "Can we have x for dinner? No, Dad doesn't care for x. Maybe next week when Dad is gone." But that is also balanced by my husband's modeling love of and service towards me. "Help your mother with x." "Get the door for your mother." "Let's plan a surprise for mom."
They certainly see him as the head of our home, but ideally, Dad is also modeling how BEST to be the head of the home.
My husband would never frame his authority where my submission to him was on par with a child's obedience to both of us. In fact, I can't see him "framing" it at all. I think it is something I give rather than something he expects or demands in any active way.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 1:37pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I think that's the thing.. the Bible doesn't tell men to demand/force obedience/submission.. but rather it tells women to give these things. And men have their own directions to follow without their wives henpecking/demanding that they do so.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 2:35pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
albeto wrote:
| Can we talk about this a bit? This is how I had understood "wifely submissiveness" to be, but I have a hard time with the logistics of this ideal. I think that by "seeking the wills of our husbands," it is suggested that we suppress our own intellect and reason when our conclusions contradict our husbands' and that sits poorly with me. |
|
|
What a wonderful Mother we have in the Church! She offers us clear direction here where perhaps other idealogies or philosophies on marriage can offer confusing influence. Other views of marriage come up short when they lack the fullness of the Catholic teaching on marriage. At times, other views may even offer a very warped, twisted and dangerous view which discounts the dignity of persons. The Catholic Church does not teach that in honoring the head of the home, the heart would suppress her opinion, her good reasoning, or her conscience. The Church in her teaching on the Sacrament of Matrimony and the roles within the Sacrament does not imply or teach an attitude of cowering submission on the part of the wife or domineering judge meeting out punishment for the part of the husband. She does offer us the assurance of Christ within a marriage in a beautiful description:
CCC #1642 wrote:
Christ dwells with them (the married couple), gives them the strength to take up their crosses and so follow him, to rise again after they have fallen, to forgive one another, to bear one another's burdens, to "be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ,"148 and to love one another with supernatural, tender, and fruitful love. In the joys of their love and family life he gives them here on earth a foretaste of the wedding feast of the Lamb:
How can I ever express the happiness of a marriage joined by the Church, strengthened by an offering, sealed by a blessing, announced by angels, and ratified by the Father? . . . How wonderful the bond between two believers, now one in hope, one in desire, one in discipline, one in the same service! They are both children of one Father and servants of the same Master, undivided in spirit and flesh, truly two in one flesh. Where the flesh is one, one also is the spirit.149 |
|
|
May I offer a logistical example?
With my husband's permission I'll share this about us. My own temperament is rather strong. I'm decisive, strong-willed, choleric and tenacious. My husband is a wonderful, strong man with a great desire to do what is best for his family. He does not share the same natural strong opinions or passions for most matters that I have and tend to display. In fact, his natural tendency is to please, and as such he will generally do whatever he thinks I want out of his strong desire to please me. He often solicits my opinion, which I readily share. Part of my gift to him is in tempering my opinion, not in the content of it, but in the forcefulness of it, in the delivery. In other words, I try to communicate and offer my opinion in a spirit of open-ness, with Marian gentility.
Here's my real life example with the understanding that I am not suggesting perfection or anything idyllic. My goal is just to provide a practical, logistical example.....
About 8 years ago, we were looking for a new home. We had set our budget together after a good deal of discussion. We looked through many houses and finally arrived at a home we both really liked and felt that it met most of our needs very well. The homeowners were asking a price above our budget. We made an offer that would put us at the top of our budget, but that we were comfortable with. The homeowners countered with an offer above our budget. My husband's first inclination was to say no and he communicated that to me. He asked my opinion. We talked together and I presented hard numbers that reflected how this increase would NOT affect our actual payment by a significant amount (to me). My husband considered my offerings, and in the end felt it was important to decline the offer. Period. No more negotiating. We had set our budget and he didn't feel comfortable going over it. My heart broke - this house seemed to fit us well and had room to grow. It was difficult and emotional for me, but it was also freeing and peaceful in supporting his decision which I knew he made with our family's welfare in mind.
I'll tell you what I could have done. I could have pounded those numbers harder. I could have really underlined the fact that our payment would only increase by a few dollars. I could have pointed out that of all the homes we looked at, this one was the only one that met most of our criteria. I could have made an emotional plea about the necessity to move soon to satisfy a number of needs. I didn't. I recognized how difficult this decision was for him. I saw how concerned he was for our family. I let the house go, and I entrusted this decision to my husband, and I felt peace. I thought of how Our Lady must have had to trust St. Joseph when he roused her in the middle of the night to take the Divine Child to Egypt of all places. My husband felt supported, loved and respected in spite of having made this decision which was difficult for both of us since we both really liked the home.
Though I had let the home go in my heart, the homeowners called us the next day and accepted our original offer. And we've been here ever since.
I remember at the time how it struck me as significant that here was a chance for me to honor my husband as head of our family. It was very difficult, but peace was the result for both of us after he made the decision and I offered my support.
albeto wrote:
| It may promote peace in the home, but that's because conflict is worked out by submissiveness. What does that teach our girls? That their thoughts and reasons are less valuable? What does it teach our boys? That they ought to expect to be obeyed? |
|
|
I pray that my husband and I model respect for each other. My husband leads out of his great love for our family, and in service to the family. At times that can be a heavy burden, and I share that load with him offering all the gifts God has given me to this marriage and to our family. I am not a doormat; I choose to follow his lead out of love, respect, trust and in service to our family. My gift of self(ishness) to my husband is in sacrificing the forceful, strategic, compelling way I can (sometimes) communicate knowing that I could take advantage of his strong desire to please.
This is what I pray we model to our daughters and our sons -
** a marriage which is open to each other (physically, spiritually, intellectually, emotionally)
** full of love, sacrificial at times
** a marriage which communicates needs and thoughts openly and honestly
** rich in mutual respect for each other and the gifts we each bring to our marriage and family
** devoted to service to each other and this family
And perhaps most importantly...
** we try to model forgiveness when we fail to honor or serve each other as Christ.
Does this help at all albeto? This is by nature a sensitive topic, and I'm so grateful that we could share together in a way that seeks truth and the fullness and richness our Catholic faith offers us. Posting with a prayer to the Holy Spirit! 
I edited above to add a thought I forgot, but felt important.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Veronika
Forum Rookie
Joined: April 23 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 57
|
| Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 4:40pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I've been with my "Little Flowers" all day and haven't gotten to respond; but Lindsay has done a perfect job summing up what I would have said if I had the time! I didn't always have an easy time with this practice, especially at the beginning of our marriage when I was so used to taking complete care of myself. It took time for me to realize that the color of the shingles on the roof was not so important that I needed to throw a fit over it and risk the respect of my husband and peace in my home...yeah, I did that. This is a hard thing for a strong willed woman to do, take it from me, but I keep coming back, as Jen said, to the fact that the angel woke "Joseph" in the middle of the night, not Our Lady. He was the one to take direction from God although she was the one carrying His son. It must be His way. God wants us to submit to our husbands as we would to the Lord. He said so. In no way does this make me less valuable, nor do my children see this situation as such. I remember my mother behaving in this fashion toward my father and am very comfortable with it. I've seen a change in my husband for the better when I began to consciously begin this practice. He is more confident and respects me more now for trusting him and encouraging my children to trust in him as well. He in no way holds his authority over my head. He asks for my opinion, considers my feelings and desires, and often tells me to do as I wish because he knows that I would prefer my way more than he prefers his.  . Somethimes I do feel the need to tell him, privately , of course, that he's dead wrong! But when it all comes down to it, as it did for Jen in her house story, and it did for me many times, I assure you, my husband makes the final decision, and we have peace. More importantly, I have peace in knowing that I'm acting according to the will of God, according to the wedding vow I made to obey my husband. God will surely see to it that we are rewarded and protected for such obedience. If anything, it makes us closer in that My husband knows without any doubt that I am with him,we truly are one and believe me, he acts accordingly.
__________________
Veronika
devoted wife and Apostolate of Holy Motherhood Mom of 5 precious children: daughter '94, son '96, son '98, and twin daughters '02...
and one little girl in heaven
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Head of Household--Catholic perspective
