Oh, Dearest Mother, Sweetest Virgin of Altagracia, our Patroness. You are our Advocate and to you we recommend our needs. You are our Teacher and like disciples we come to learn from the example of your holy life. You are our Mother, and like children, we come to offer you all of the love of our hearts. Receive, dearest Mother, our offerings and listen attentively to our supplications. Amen.



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Elizabeth
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 2:54pm | IP Logged Quote Elizabeth

Kathryn UK wrote:
I know my husband and his relatives would be greatly offended by it, seeing it as taking a cornerstone of their tradition and twisting it to fit our religion - in much the same way that we would be offended by a Muslim celebrating some kind of "Eucharist" and adding references to Mohammed (I know that sounds strong, but it really is how they would feel). Judaism is a living religion, and most of the traditions included in the Seder meal were not introduced until hundreds of years after the time of Jesus. The Seder today has the same purpose as the meal celebrated by Our Lord at the last supper, but the form is very different. To take a modern -style Jewish Seder and Christianise it makes no sense to me.


I think you make a good point here, Kathryn. I think Christian's DO have a claim to the Passover: it is the meal--the feast-- when the Eucharist was instituted. That makes it a bit different from Christianizing a Hindu tradition. Christ Himself made this particular Jewish tradition a new Christian one. The problem, I think, is that we are Christianizing a modern Jewish tradition. Perhaps a little research should be done in order to celebrate an ancient Passover, pointing out the Christian elements.

So, that sounds like a big job! But it does also sound like a relevant job. There is no point in a Christian celebrating a modern seder. There is every point in remembering the Last Supper. Indeed, we could argue that at the Last Supper, Jesus changed the seder forever, but that Jewish changes made since the the Last Supper have nothing to do with us.

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momwise
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 5:37pm | IP Logged Quote momwise

This page from Come to the Table mentions that the current haggadah has been in use for 1,500 years and that modern observances are changing the words. It says its Catholic Passover text has been altered, but the traditional structure is used.

Kathryn, I was wondering if its the Christianizing of the text that is the problem since the structure remains? Is there traditional structure in the domestic-church.com version or is the problem with both structure and text?

Elizabeth....what an excellent point about modernized versions having nothing to do with the Last Supper. That was an "oh, duh...." moment for me

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Kathryn UK
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 1:34pm | IP Logged Quote Kathryn UK

Come to the Table looks very interesting, as from the extract available online it appears the author has done her homework well. I'd like to see how she has arranged the Seder - it sounds as though it is an adapted Seder intended to enhance the Christian experience, rather than a "Christianised" Seder, but there isn't enough on Amazon to tell for sure.

Yes, Gwen, it is the Christianising of the text that was my problem with the Domestic Church version. It uses a very abbreviated form of the traditional structure.

The more I think about it the less sure I am about celebrating a Seder as Christians (as distinct from a Christianised Seder). I have tended to think it is OK because we share the heritage of the Passover, although I personally wouldn't take part in a Christian organised Seder of any type because of my circumstances - my dh is very uncomfortable with the idea, and also as a family we are very careful to make distinctions between Daddy's things (Jewish) and our things (Christian). For us this is essential because we do not want our children becoming confused about their religion and ending up in a Christian-Jewish muddle. But then, we are oddities - in the UK at least there are very, very few Christian-Jewish marriages where both partners actively practice their religion, and even fewer where the children are brought up specifically in one religion despite having a parent who practices the other. In the light of this conversation - and trying to set my personal bias aside - I am now wondering whether for us as Catholics celebrating Passover through a Seder could actually take something away from the Easter Triduum. In the Holy Thursday liturgy we have the ultimate reminder of the Last Supper, and the Easter Vigil specifically tells us "this is our Passover Feast ...". By recreating a Jewish Passover feast, whether an adapted version of a modern Seder, or a reconstruction of a Passover as it was in Jesus's time, are we actually taking the focus away from the Triduum? I'm just thinking aloud here ...


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Posted: April 06 2006 at 3:10pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

I've been really pondering this thread. We watched an interview with Mr. Levine, Pope John Paul's personal conductor, from last year. He is a Jew, and talked about how the Pope gave them a Menorah from 13th century Prague, sent notes for each of his son's Bar Mitzvahs. He also said a Cardinal from one of the Congregrations sent a letter that was read in the synagogue, which basically talked about embracing and living your Jewish faith and heritage.

JPII was very sensitive about different issues regarding Jews and Catholics. I don't understand interfaith dialogues, and I hope Kathryn can step in and help me in some of these areas. My first instinct is that I want all to be in one fold, but that's not correct. I see the Church wants is for each person to "bloom where they are planted." So a Jew should be living his faith to the fullest. And likewise a Mormon or Protestant. My role as a Catholic is to also live my faith to the fullest.

We arrived home Sunday night and my copy of Come to the Table was waiting for me, so I delved right in. My personal opinion, the book falls short of my expectations. The book is slim, no index or works cited page. There are a few good points...

Her purpose is stated through her quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
CCC 1096: Jewish liturgy and Christian liturgy. A better knowledge of the Jewish people's faith and religious life as professed and lived even now can help our better understanding of certain aspects of Christian liturgy. For both Jews and Christians Sacred Scripture is an essential part of their respective liturgies: in the proclamation of the Word of God, the response to this word, prayer of praise and intercession for the living and the dead, invocation of God's mercy. In its characteristic structure the Liturgy of the Word originates in Jewish prayer. The Liturgy of the Hours and other liturgical texts and formularies, as well as those of our most venerable prayers, including the Lord's Prayer, have parallels in Jewish prayer. The Eucharistic Prayers also draw their inspiration from the Jewish tradition. The relationship between Jewish liturgy and Christian liturgy, but also their differences in content, are particularly evident in the great feasts of the liturgical year, such as Passover. Christians and Jews both celebrate the Passover. For Jews, it is the Passover of history, tending toward the future; for Christians, it is the Passover fulfilled in the death and Resurrection of Christ, though always in expectation of its definitive consummation.

She presents a seder meal that is an abbreviated and "Catholicized" version. (I don't think Kathryn would approve). She explains:
...the current Haggadah has remained basically intact for at least 1,500 years. Even so, it's not at all unusual for text to be modified to interpret world events, or to incorporate linguistic innovations such as inclusive language.....More recently, any number of haggadot have emerged to include references to twenty-first century culture. I mention this because Come to the Table using as it does a traditional seder structure to organize our Catholic Christian observance of the Jewish exodus during Holy Week, falls well within the Jewish tradition of text-tweaking to make a point. Indeed.
But then later her statement seems almost contradictory:
Meanwhile, I suggest we pay closer attention to what Catholics already share with Jewish people regarding ritual and meaning. Come to the Table does this by offering a Passover seder that draws inspiration and structure from, but does not replicate, the Jewish seder. Our belief in Jesus Christ makes simply using the traditional Jewish seder not only inappropriate, but also impossible -- we are Christians. So here, you'll be invited to draw upon core Christian precepts to deepen your appreciation of Passover as the Historic antecedent of our Holy Week.

The Order of Service for her suggested seder removed the Urchatz (Washing Hands without a Blessing), Yachatz (Dividing the Matzot), in the Maggid she omits the Dayenu, The Ten Plagues, and Enduring Lesson of Passover. She also omits the Korekh (Eating the "Hillel" Sandwich), and Tzafun (The Afikomen). She mentions in one place that some of the ritual is conflicting and not necessary to include in her seder, but doesn't go on to explain why. Each section in the seder there are footnotes to scripture, both Old and New Testament, some historical and liturgical pointers with some connections.

And then she mentioned the "Festive Meal" section of the seder. Can anyone explain to me if this means different foods are served other than the traditional foods? Is this when the break-off of things like macaroons and matzo balls are eaten?

No recipes in this book, just a list of about 3 Jewish cookbooks to use as a guide.

My main criticism is her footnotes refer to books that I find questionable. And some historical facts seem to be skewed. I don't know much about Jewish history or relations, but I know that there are books with slanted views, on both sides. There are two sides to a story. I am not saying that Catholics are exonerated from all guilt of past and present anti-semitism...there are many historical facts, and Pope John Paul II wouldn't have issued his apologies if it wasn't true. I'm just not so sure she has a good grasp of unbiased facts.

She delves a little in historical Jewish-Catholic relations. She mentions Pius XII and how there was public debate at the proposed beatification. But she says
More than 30 years later, this debate flared up again with publication of Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII Viking, 1999). Author John Cornwell acquired access to Vatican documents that he intially believed would exonerate Pius XII from charges of Nazi complicity, only to discover that he would need to write quite a different book."
She goes on to say this was challenged, and lists a few other books and sites, but her initial presentation would make one think that Hitler's Pope was completely right on track.

She brings up the subject of blood libels, which is so controversial. She used James Carroll, Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews written by a former Catholic priest! I don't know much about him, but it would seem he would have a little axe to grind....JMHO. You can read the review on Amazon to get a taste of what it's about. I'm not sure I understand completely blood libels, but it seems that from definitions I've found that it was not just a Catholics against Jews type thing, but has gone on and continues to this day, many times by Arabs to Jews.
Although she didn't cite this page, when looking up some information from her footnote, I found this information on blood libel Festivals. She refers to these two blood festivals: "Nonetheless, the Fried-Bread Procession in Tierno, Italy, and the Domenichino Festival in Fobruomo, Spain, both anchored in anti-Semitic legnds, are still celebrated", and mentions that this Festival in Spain still ongoing although based on the libel. My initial Google search only found this site...which is Jewish, so that's why I wondered. Does anyone have any reliable information on blood libels?

The author makes a point that really hit home to me. She's a convert from Judaism, and her mother still practices. Her mother wrote to her to encourage her to write that the Passover meal is also a celebration, a joyful time.
She loves knowing that the same words will be read, and that the same ceremonial foods will be blessed and eaten in the same order. "I love this connectedness," she wrote in one of our email exchanges. "I don't demean the 'frivolity.' This is the irreverent reverence that comes from familiarity and fitting in one's own skin, if even for just a few hours. And I do believe that all Jews who observe Passover feel the same."
I find this true in our own family celebrations, not just our little Holy Thursday meal, but other religious ceremonies that we have done the same over the years.

I also like her suggestion: "Indeed, since Holy Thursday already includes an abundance of liturgically significant activities for Latin Rite Catholics, I recommend offering this seder on Wednesday evening before Holy Thursday, or on a Wednesday evening the week before Holy Week." But I like it because it agrees with our traditions. It's too much for Holy Thursday, so our "feet washing" and "Last Supper" gets moved to the closest day we can have all the extended family join us.

But like I said, this book falls short. After Kathryn's point that Judaism is a living faith and the current seder ceremony was instituted 1,500 years ago, I'd say it would almost be irrelevant to our Christian liturgy, because it's approximately 500 years after Christ. Unless someone can show me the tie to what the Passover meal was in Christ's time to 500 years later to the current seder. I want to delve more into finding how Christ celebrated, so I can be an imitation of Him, and not current Judaic practice....

Elizabeth's point is just so concise:
Elizabeth wrote:
I think Christian's DO have a claim to the Passover: it is the meal--the feast-- when the Eucharist was instituted. That makes it a bit different from Christianizing a Hindu tradition. Christ Himself made this particular Jewish tradition a new Christian one. The problem, I think, is that we are Christianizing a modern Jewish tradition. Perhaps a little research should be done in order to celebrate an ancient Passover, pointing out the Christian elements.

So, that sounds like a big job! But it does also sound like a relevant job. There is no point in a Christian celebrating a modern seder. There is every point in remembering the Last Supper. Indeed, we could argue that at the Last Supper, Jesus changed the seder forever, but that Jewish changes made since the the Last Supper have nothing to do with us.

So where do we find this? I can't read Hebrew...are there Catholic scholars who have done this already? I don't want to reinvent the wheel.

Kathryn UK wrote:
I am now wondering whether for us as Catholics celebrating Passover through a Seder could actually take something away from the Easter Triduum. In the Holy Thursday liturgy we have the ultimate reminder of the Last Supper, and the Easter Vigil specifically tells us "this is our Passover Feast ...". By recreating a Jewish Passover feast, whether an adapted version of a modern Seder, or a reconstruction of a Passover as it was in Jesus's time, are we actually taking the focus away from the Triduum? I'm just thinking aloud here ...
And I'm wondering the same thing...and I'm not in your unique situation. I want to implement some practices to bring home the liturgy of Holy Thursday to my children. I don't think it detracts in that matter...tangible examples drive home the point. We wash feet at home, they witness the washing at Church, the readings we read with our meal and foot washing are echoed again at the Mass. Our white tablecloths and festive setting reflects the beautiful celebration of the Institution of the Eucharist and Holy Orders. Bringing some foods that Christ might have eaten...how far can I go without detracting?

All these years I've been seeing how so many Catholics are taking up the practice of seder meals, and I thought I was dropping the ball. Again, I appreciate you bringing up some great points, Kathryn, and letting me look at this in a different light. Your "oddity" in your family is a blessing to me!


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Posted: April 06 2006 at 3:13pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

Pardon me for serial posting, but I also wanted to interject Scott Hahn's thoughts on The Fourth Cup. In rereading this, he restates that scholars believe that the current seder has similar structure to Jesus' times.

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