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lapazfarm
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I've waited long enough, I guess, so now I'll throw my 2 cents in (and that is about all it is worth).
I often find myself of 2 minds about things. Perhaps that is what a liberal Catholic is, I'm not sure. I think the term "liberal Catholic" is itself an oxymoron. If you are too liberal (Pro-choice, not faithful to church teachings, etc) then you are not really Catholic, and if you are too Catholic (pro-life, NFP, etc) then you aren't really a liberal, kwim? I fall somewhere in the middle. I consider myself a devout Catholic. I am as far as I know, 100% within the bounds of our Church's teachings. I am pro-life, I have 5 children, I attend mass and avail myself of the sacraments, I have a son who is an enthusiastic altar server whom we have hopes for the priesthood. But by some, I would be considered a liberal. I am an environmentalist,I am anti-Bush and anti-war, I am concerned for social justice, I dress in jeans and T-shirts, I grow organic veggies, and I have a daughter who used to alter serve. I am also a proud Democrat, working to change the problems of my party from within (See Democrats for Life).
So...where do I stand on the girl alter server issue? Squarely in the middle, of course!
In my experience with girl servers (I have never been in a parish without them. Sometimes that's all we had)they have always been modest and reverent. In fact, in FL where I used to live, one of our homeschooling girls won the Altar server of the year award. You never met a more devout, lovely young lady. Since she was homeschooled, she was often the only one available to serve daily mass.
I have, however, seen boys dressed inappropriately while serving, in flip-flops, spiked or colored hair and earrings, huge boots or unlaced skater shoes. Is this a near occasion of sin?
I also have a boy who is a very enthusiastic altar server. He cries when he can't serve because we are too late to get him there on time. Fortunately in our parish we have a wonderful priest who recognizes my son's special devotion and allows him to serve at any Mass he attends, without regard to schedule. He serves alongside girls as well as boys and does not care because his focus is on Who he is serving, not who he is serving with.
So... I just don't understand why a boy would not want to serve with a girl. After all, if the desire is to SERVE, then that desire should be there regardless of the circumstances. Perhaps they are not ideal for that boy, but should not that make it even more of a SERVICE, to do what one does not necessarily want to do? The "cross" he must bear, if he wishes to see it that way? We can say that female alter servers get in the way of boy's vocations, but I don't think that holds water. If a boy is called to serve, he will do so regardless of any impediments he finds. He wouldn't let a "silly girl" get in his way. Maybe I am idealistic in that. But I know that if we are concerned for vocations, which we should be, then we need to teach our sons to serve no matter what. Part of the preparation of our boys for the prieshood should be the understanding that it will not be an easy road. This should apply whether we "believe" in female servers or not.
At this point, I am willing to follow my very conservative tendencies and be obedient to the teachings of my Bishop, who apparently does not have a problem with female servers. Who am I to question him?
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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abcmommy
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Wow, Maddie, I have never seen such an exhibition in any church but I am sure you are right that some people have no sense about the with regard to dressing appropriately for church, or anything actually- how many people do i see in pyjamas in public??? wild.
In that instance could someone older and more mature take the young idiot aside and say, "Listen, we dress a certain way when we come to church bc we want to be reverant and appropriate." And maybe if this was done with real kndness and not too judgementally the young person would be open to the suggestions.
I am fascinated by the work of the sacristan. tell more about this work. or does it need a new thread?
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Maddie
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Thanks, abcmommy, for keeping things positive. I'm afraid my experience with altar girls has been terribly negative. I still do not support them because I see this as being a "sterile" service for them (girls, that is) and I don't believe we can deny human nature in teenage boys. I think boys need that time with a priest, without girls around, to help them discern a vocation to the priesthood. Monastaries are separate but equal, aren't they? We have to accept boys and girls are different in many other areas of life, why can't it apply here?
As far as the boy with spiked hair, earring, etc., I would say it's distacting, but not s**ually provocative, right?
It would be helpful if there was a dress code for anyone who wants to serve. If altar girls are inevitable, for now, perhaps this is one solution to the concerns regarding immodest dress.
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alicegunther
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Dear Friends,
Many interesting points have made throughout this discussion, and at least two cried out for threads of their own. Please take a look within this forum at Double Monasteries to discuss the tradition of Double Monasteries within the church. (Kathyrn and Maddie's most recent posts may be found at the top of the new thread for convenience.)
I initially began a topic called "Mothers and daughters serving the Church" to explore ways in which our daughters can lend their unique gifts to our parishes, preferably with all of us right alongside, forgetting that there is a very similar thread called Nurturing Vocations for Girls already going strong. The two threads are now combined into one, and I hope all of you will take a moment to share your thoughts there as well.
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saintanneshs
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After mass this weekend, I casually asked Father whether or not our altar boys would stay altar boys in our church and was surprised to hear his answer. He said he was really doing a lot of praying and thinking about the issue. He asked my thoughts on it and then said I should write him a letter. When I said "hmmmm" he repeated the request. I started to walk away at that point (so he could speak with someone else) and he said it again. Okay, so a letter needs to be written and I need some help. The altar boys thread has lots of useful ideas, but if I'm going to use your examples, I'll need a little more "proof." Any suggestions on where I should look?
Last week our local paper printed an article about the change and included, "(Bishop) Loverde said that he has found dioceses of similar size that allow altar girls have more seminarians." (from The Free-Lance Star)
Where can I find evidence of this?
I'm glad I opened my mouth, but how do I get myself into these things... 
Thanks for the help!!
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MaryM
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saintanneshs wrote:
Last week our local paper printed an article about the change and included, "(Bishop) Loverde said that he has found dioceses of similar size that allow altar girls have more seminarians." (from The Free-Lance Star)
Where can I find evidence of this? |
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This quote doesn't make sense. More seminarians than who?? ... other dioceses of similar size with male-only policies? ...themselves before they permitted female alter servers? There is only one diocese left that has male only altar servers so there is very little to compare the Arlington diocese to in order to make a statement like that. In order for this to be accurate all the other dioceses of a similar size have to have significantly higher numbers of seminarians. Since there are no other dioceses of that size that don't permit female altar servers we have nothing to compare to.
A point though - it is very possible that the Bishop was misquoted in some way - this is the media remember.
Back to the only other diocese with a male only altar server policy - Lincoln. It is smaller in size but it is one of the most vocation-rich diocese per capita of Catholics to seminarians with a total of 38 seminarians (approx: 1 seminarian per 2353 Catholics).
There is a very interesting article about seminary numbers here on Ignatius' webpage (originally from Catholic World Report). There are two pages to the article.
A couple quotes from the article.
-The dozen dioceses with the highest ratio of seminarians to Catholics, according to statistics published in the 2004 edition of The Official Catholic Directory, are Lincoln, Nebraska; Yakima Washington; Savannah, Georgia; Cheyenne, Wyoming; Rapid City, South Dakota; Wichita, Kansas; Tulsa, Oklahoma; Alexandria, Louisiana; Pensacola-Tallahassee, Florida; Steubenville, Ohio; Spokane, Washington; and Bismarck, North Dakota. - all are small diocese (fewer than 200,000 Catholics) and the article suggests this could be due to greater interaction with bishops in the smaller diocese and the personal invitations to consider priesthood from bishop & vocations directors. Reasons also sited: divine grace in response to prayer (specific prayer initiatives in the diocese), increased priestly interaction in high schools and colleges, parish priests supportive of promoting vocations (see themselves as associate vocations directors) Hmmm... missing from the list of reasons ....female altar servers 
-Fidelity to the magisterium and traditional spirituality are strikingly manifest in several vocation-rich dioceses.
Our diocese - Denver - is considered one of the larger vocation-rich dioceses. Maybe he was comparing Arlington to dioceses like ours. We do have female altar servers (and have had them since before it was "permitted") and I will tell you it has nothing to do with our increasing vocation numbers. We have a high number of seminarians in spite of the policy not as a result of it. Those reasons would be a whole new topic. Anyway - we are an example of a diocese with orthodox and strong leadership where vocations are increasing. It was interesting for me to note that a couple of the higher vocation dioceses are not known for orthodoxy (Boise and Spokane) so there are obviously other factors at work there.
So getting to specifics, this Free-Lance Star statement was very intriguing to me so I did some of searching for statistics. I looked at the dioceses that are similar in size (total number of Catholics) to Arlington - the five right above it and the four just below it. The majority had similar numbers of parishes and current priests. Arlington has a Catholic population of about 391,000 and 22 seminarians. Of those nine diocese of similar size that I compared only three have more seminarians than Arlington. Saint Petersburg has 23 (practically the same), Austin has 33, and Atlanta has 50. An interesting note, the Bishop of Atlanta directly attributes the high number of vocations to.......Eucharistic adoration in the diocese.
This was another interesting quote from the above mentioned article as it refers to Arlington having been a vocation-rich diocese in the 1990's
In the 1990s, the Diocese of Fargo (under Bishop James Sullivan) was frequently cited, along with Lincoln (under Bishop Bruskewitz), Peoria (under then-Bishop John Myers), and Arlington (under the late Bishop John Keating), among Americans leading powerhouses of priestly vocations.
The other two diocese besides Arlington that dropped significantly in seminarian numbers (Fargo and Peoria) do have female altar servers. Can't use the female altar server argument here.
Anyway, I thought this was very interesting. I have some specific numbers for those diocese of similar size if you are interested and some sites that were helpful in finding info.
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saintanneshs
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Dear Friends, after receiving several pm's this am, I just wanted to clarify that I am not trying to start any kind of a debate via my post above with regard to anyone's personal feelings about altar girls. I'm not trying to offend or alienate anyone either. I'm just looking for some kind of evidence to substiantiate what some of you have said you have noticed in your own parish/diocese in this thread. I'd even be open to hearing evidence of good things that have happenend as a result of this change, if you'd like to share.
Please understand, I'm not trying to run away with this thread or turn it in any direction. I'm just quietly poking my head into the esteemed circle to ask for help and advice. Please, keep sharing. I'm learning so much from all of you, even when my poorly (and sometimes uncharitably) expressed opinions are different. Please forgive me if I've offended any of you. 
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saintanneshs
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Yes, Mary M, I am interested. Please share! And thanks!
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Sarah
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As a priest explained to my dh this morning at their regular Monday meeting. . .
Women in their roles in the Church SERVE the PEOPLE. An Altar server is serving the PRIEST. He is an apprentice for a male that has a vocation that he in his essence as a male can become someday, potentially (perhaps another vocation can call him elsewhere). It makes no sense for women to serve because they are apprenticing a role they can never continue.
The Sacrament of Holy Orders leaves an INDELIBLE mark on the soul of the priest. Meaning, his soul is specially marked forever and ever, even if he should quit the priesthood. Modern thought is to believe a priest is a regular guy like everyone else. Yes, he's a human and capable of sin like us all, but he is set aside as special and his soul has been marked as such. No woman can have this.
In the Latin Mass, the priest does everything--he reads the readings, he distributes Holy Communion, etc. His job is very fulfilling (and I not saying that Norvus Ordo priests aren't doing a great job--they are, and I am in full communion with the Catholic Church and acknowledge that the Norvus Ordo (English Mass) is the normative rite of the western world ). I'm just trying to say that there is a beautiful & quiet balance of altar server following the priest around on the altar as he does these things. Its really lovely to watch your own son.
So, what about a married man serving at the altar? He already has his vocation. If his wife should die and his children grow up, he could still become a priest. That seed could have been planted earlier in his life as a server.
I see the point above, however, where you tell your son he is going to an altar boy and you tell your daughter she is going to be a cleaner for the church. We definately need to emphasize the importance of women in the church. At our church a few years back the girls got very interested sewing vestments and altar cloths. Those that have retained the Latin Mass have also retained all the great fabric aspects of the Mass. There is an amazing amount of layers that the priest wears. Unfortunaley in the New Mass, many of those great items have been stripped away.
As Christ made His Way of the Cross, the women had their role in serving Him. No woman stepped forward to carry the cross for Him, a man did.
Just for the record as well, please don't think I've personally attacked anyone or claimed that altar girls are sinful. I don't think either.
Enjoying this discussion. Thanks to everyone for sharing!! 
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Sarah
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MaryM wrote:
saintanneshs wrote:
Last week our local paper printed an article about the change and included, "(Bishop) Loverde said that he has found dioceses of similar size that allow altar girls have more seminarians." (from The Free-Lance Star)
Where can I find evidence of this? |
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This quote doesn't make sense. |
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I agree---doesn't make sense
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Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
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Elizabeth
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Dear Sarah,
I've been reading about this issue for years. Your post above was the clearest, most direct explanation I've ever read. Thank you.
And Mary, your statistical ponderings, together with Sarah's philosophy should really help Kristine clarify her thought.
It's so nice to see this board working as a resource!
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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saintanneshs
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Sarah wrote:
MaryM wrote:
saintanneshs wrote:
Last week our local paper printed an article about the change and included, "(Bishop) Loverde said that he has found dioceses of similar size that allow altar girls have more seminarians." (from The Free-Lance Star)
Where can I find evidence of this? |
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This quote doesn't make sense. |
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I agree---doesn't make sense |
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Just to clarify, I've written the quote exactly as it was printed in last Wednesday's paper. I think it would have been better (clearer as far as grammar and syntax goes) if commas had been used to separate "that allow altar girls" from the rest of the sentence. As far as not making sense with regard to the validity of the statement, that's what I was seeking a response to.
Thanks, ladies. Elizabeth's right, I think I have just what I need. (And thanks to everyone who PM'd me with responses, too. )
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Kristine
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JennGM
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I found this excellent article by Alice von Hildebrand The Sacredness of Tradition whish gives some food for thought.
I'm going to post in another thread on some other thoughts she wrote, very pertinent to this discussion. Stay tuned.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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teachingmom
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My pastor is my hero! Here is a link to a pamphlet that he made available at all the Masses this past weekend explaining why he is retaining the practice of male altar servers at our parish. He addresses the issue in a very well organized set of questions and answers.
I think it took a lot of courage. Instead of asking for parishioner input as many pastors of our diocese are doing, my pastor told us he did NOT want to hear from us. He said that he would be taking some time to pray, think, and do some study on the issue and that he would make the decision that he feels that God is calling him to make. He made it clear that he was not trying to please us, but trying to do God's will for our parish. What a blessing he is!
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JennGM
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teachingmom wrote:
| My pastor is my hero! Here is a link to a pamphlet that he made available at all the Masses this past weekend explaining why he is retaining the practice of male altar servers at our parish. He addresses the issue in a very well organized set of questions and answers. |
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Hurrah for Father Pollard!! Very well-written and thorough! I'm so glad he did some research and found the surveys prove what our eyes can see across America. It's a 12 year experiment that has failed. Why do we have to join when it's drowning already?
My one sister is in that parish and she's so blessed!
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Jen L.
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I've been looking for this for days (I knew I read it somewhere and couldn't remember where) and finally found it! It's from the comments section of Amy Welborn's website. Interesting ideas, I think.
Link
"A priest I knew a long time ago had been appointed as a low-on-the-totem-pole assistant pastor into a parish that already had altar-girls. He had neither the seniority to simply abolish them, nor the heart to say, "No, girls, just scram, go away, begone!"
So his diplomatic, sensitive-to-feelings, yet effective strategy was:
(1) to make sure the boys wore traditional cassock-and-surplice while the >girls covered their hair with veils like nuns and wore modest, simple, long dresses just as you described, plus
(2) he gave them distinctly different roles
As I remember it, the girls came out BEFORE Mass, put the altar cloth on the altar, lit the candles, and arranged the sacramental items on the credenza. Typically feminine: like daughters setting the table, like Jewish mothers lighting Sabbath candles.
Then the girls withdrew from the scene altogether and stood with the choir.
Then the boys came out and did the Mass-server thing.
Then after Mass, the girls came out and led an after-Mass Rosary.
The point was a deliberate re-emphasis on separate masculine and feminine roles. And that struck just the right chord, IMHO.
It's like harmonious music: everybody can sing, but everybody should sing the part that's suited to them. (Female sopranos! Male basses! And for God's sake, no castrati!)"
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Jen
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Karen T
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I know this is an old thread, but I've just been re-reading it and hope no one minds another comment.
My ds has wanted to serve at mass for several years. At our previous parish, we tried to sign him up several times and could never get anyone to return our calls/notes. About a year ago we became members of a different parish (not over that, but it's a smaller parish, orig a mission of the larger one, and actually closer to our house) which overall is a bit more conservative, which we like.
Ds is now trying to sign up to be a server here, with almost as much difficulty. One man oversees it, and ds called him 3 times and left messages with no return call, until he finally caught the guy at home. The man says he's busy right then, but please email him with specifics and he'd get back to us. I did that, 3 weeks went by with no answer. I emailed again, asking if he'd received our email and he replied he had but he was busy. Finally, about 4 weeks after that he sends an email to about 6 people (including us) saying he'd lost his spreadsheet with info and to email again with it, including which mass we preferred, BUT that both Sunday am masses are already taken, ad infinitum, and the only choices are Sat pm and Sun pm (life teen).
Not too happy about that, since most of the servers I've seen sun am are girls, but I don't want to rock the boat so I reply that ds can serve either one, just let us know. we are still waiting another month later to hear back for a time to get trained.
At this point, what can I do? Do I talk to the priest (I'd feel like a tattling child), keep bugging this guy, or what?
Oh, by the way, our girls are wearing the cassock and surplice, too! this surprised me since the pastor is pretty conservative in many ways.
Frustrated,
Karen
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aussieannie
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I thought I would add something too, as I had not seen it before and I was not around when the posting was busy.
We belong to a Polish parish (English speaking Masses), we are not Polish but it is one of the conservative parishes in Brisbane.
Father never has altar girls. He said to us once, that back in Poland he had been in charge of 70 altar boys in a parish. 70!!! I couldn't believe it! But it would be part of the explaination as to why Poland has so many vocations. How many countless priests have said that the first stirrings of their heart to become a priest happend at the altar, as an altar boy.
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MaryM
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Karen T wrote:
At this point, what can I do? Do I talk to the priest (I'd feel like a tattling child), keep bugging this guy, or what?
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Oh Karen that really is frustrating and what a discouragement to a young man who is eager to serve. I'm not sure what you should do. I know you don't want to go to Father in the sense of feeling like tattling, but at some point this fellow needs to be accountable. If he is so busy he can't do this maybe there is someone else who can but father would need to know. Maybe you could suggest to this gentleman that if he is so busy right now, maybe it would be easier for you and your son to talk to Father directly about training. Gives him an opportunity to follow through and might light a fire under him. Or could you suggest helping him out in some way like scheduling the training with the other people and all he would have to do is show up. More anonomously you could talk to the diocese vocations director and ask for suggestions, since they are very anxious for young men to be given the opportunity to serve.
I can not understand "being full" at a particular Mass. If more can serve more should be rotated in.
aussieannie wrote:
| He said to us once, that back in Poland he had been in charge of 70 altar boys in a parish. 70!!! I couldn't believe it! But it would be part of the explaination as to why Poland has so many vocations. |
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And we have reaped the benefit of this because we have several fantastic Polish priests fairly recently ordained for our dioceses.
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Mary M. in Denver
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Diane
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Karen, how frustrating this must be for you and your son. Mary offers some great suggestions. Persevere! The Church needs your ds. I'll be praying for you.
aussieannie wrote:
| Father never has altar girls. He said to us once, that back in Poland he had been in charge of 70 altar boys in a parish. 70!!! I couldn't believe it! But it would be part of the explaination as to why Poland has so many vocations. |
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Our family recently spent the most wonderful week in Poland. We stayed in a little village about 20 miles south of Krakow. Mass on Sunday was incredibly beautiful and very reverent. The church was packed (4 Sunday Masses in this small parish), and when we arrived, everyone was singing Polish hymns a cappella before Mass began. There were 7 boys serving at the altar---5 of them were high school age.
I went back for daily Mass on Friday. There were 5 boys serving, 3 were high school age. How many US parishes could say this about their 7am daily Mass during summer vacation? It was so inspiring. I was also touched to see a young boy (about 12) attending this Mass on his own.
The pastor noticed our family at Mass (we were noticed everywhere we went ), and he gave our hosts a stack of holy cards to give to our kids. The hosts were very kind as well and welcomed all of us back to their own home after Mass for coffee and juice.
I thought of all of you often during that week. We felt the presence of Pope John Paul everywhere---he is such a beloved hero to them. It is a beautiful country, and we were so blessed to be able to travel there. If you ever have the chance, GO!
I haven't been able to post for a while, and I've really missed being here. Glad to be back.
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Diane
Mom to five fair lasses and one bonny prince
The Journey of a Mother's Heart
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Dealing with Female Altar Servers
