| Author | |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 7:27am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
I just posted this prayer request for our diocese.
Bishop Loverde Allows 1962 Latin Mass, Expands Altar Server Policy
Arlington Catholic Herald Article
I'm trying to keep my emotions in check and try to see how I can try to make the best of this situation. Can you share how do you handle this when you have boys? Does your parish separate the girls and boys? Do you just go with the inevitable?
What kind of rules should be in place with the girls? Makeup, hair, clothing, shoes. It's always distracting to me.
I'd appreciate any input. If we're going to have them, I at least would like it done correctly and hopefully a way that will continue to foster vocations and reverence and boys on the altar.
I fear that many families will pull out their boys. In our parish we have a WAITING LIST for altar boys. They can't miss a Mass, or they are out. Do we have a need for MORE servers?
Ei, yi, yi.... 
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
esperanza
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 17 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 855
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 7:57am | IP Logged
|
|
|
 Jenn, my oldest dd brought this to my attention yesterday. A priest-friend of hers that she worked w/ in the Dominican Republic e-mailed her about it. She is also extremely upset. I'm waiting to hear responses here to pass to her. Our parish, definitely, has plenty of boys serving.
__________________
In His Peace,
Tammy Gonzalez in VA
dh-Johnny
mom to Tara-'85, Noelle-'88, Jeremy-'91, Elizabeth-'93, Emma-'96, Dominic-'99, Gabriel-'01, Elijah-03
and Jacinta-06
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Bridget
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Michigan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2198
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 8:10am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oh, that's frustrating! We have had them here for a while. Our parish has only boys, predominately hs'ers. My boys have asked to not serve with girls if it comes to that. I think many boys feel that it would no longer be an honorable masculine thing to do when girls do it too. There are a few parishes that only have boys so we have sought them out.
It's another attack on the male priesthood. And the Church.
Your right, there will be division and anger and hurt. But we can withstand it. Keep praying and hoping. Christ will prevail!
__________________
God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mare
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 08 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 357
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 8:15am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oh Jenn,
I'm so sorry to hear that you are really struggling with this change.  I didn't realize that there was a diocese left that didn't have female alter servers. We've had female alter servers in our diocese for at least 10 yrs. now. I was thrilled to hear this policy change when it happened in the 90's. I would have loved to be an alter server. With that in mind, this is being asked in a loving way. Please, excuse my ignorance, but what is wrong with having female alter servers?
I'm not sure what you mean by "the inevitable." When you ask about separating the boys and girls, do you mean having only girls serve at Mass? I think it all depends on the schedule and who is able to be at certain Masses.
The alter girls wear long robes like the alter boys so I don't find it distracting at all. You don't see the clothes or the shoes. I see the girls' hair in pony tails and straight down. I haven't found that distracting at all either.
I see no disrespect on the alter by either the boys or the girls. Being an alter server is a volunteer position. These children are volunteering to be up on the alter serving God. Their parents have made the committment to be at the Masses at various times and days through out the year. I actually think it is a wonderful thing. I would support my girls becoming alter servers if they wanted to serve God that way.
I really think that it will work out. No doubt, it will take time to get use to seeing female alter servers. Change is hard when you are use to something, when it is all you have known. No one likes to be comfortable one day and then feel like the rug is pulled out from them the next day. I will keep you in prayer as you go through this time.
Mare
__________________
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 8:19am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I think a big component of this story is that the Bishop announced the institution of the indult Mass in two parishes in the SAME press announcement where he announced altar girls. If the altar girl situation was going to be polarizing, the way it was announced will make it worse. From the deluge in my inbox, I have the distinct sense that people are insulted over being "thrown a bone" to keep them quiet while some took away a long-standing distinction of this particular diocese.Not a happy day, all the way around.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Courtney
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 796
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 8:47am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Please excuse my ignorance. I grew up in a Protestant church (Church of Christ) where women held no role in the Sunday services (and still don't). THere have never been any women readers (or lectors) and never would a woman assist in their communion service (Eucharistic ministers). Coming to the Catholic church in 1993, I was surprised to see women had any role at all. Again, excuse my ignorance, but how is an alter girl different than a female lector, eucharistic minister? Also, is there anything specifically in the Catechism re: this? Please help inform me! Thank you!
__________________
Courtney in Texas
Wife to Mike since 3/94 
Mom to Candace 10/97 ,Christopher 4/00 and Connor 11/11
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Rebecca
Forum All-Star
Joined: Dec 30 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1898
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 8:47am | IP Logged
|
|
|
We have had female altar servers in our local parish for five years. There are no longer ANY boys that serve at ANY of the Masses. This seems to be the course it takes.
We do not belong to that parish but, rather, chose to join one a few miles away that is a bit more traditional.
God Bless,
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 9:09am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I know Elizabeth and I have been through this (both issues) many times, and she sent me the memo.
FWIW, our parish is unofficially phasing out altar girls...In fact, Trip is trying to take care of the matter by showing up to serve every Mass he can, taking full charge, and recruiting his friends.
The girls who serve here are very nice girls, but the high heels, make-up, (Trip adds: giant hoop earrings ), are distracting.
At Latin Mass, where Trip also serves every other week, there are never altar girls...I wondered after reading the pronouncement if Arlington will have girls serving the Tridentine??
Mare, there is a some (logical) thought that the privilege of serving at the altar is a formative place for boys considering Holy Orders. Some suggest that fewer boys want to serve with girls, and so are missing this key formation for vocation. Others might say this is "misogyny" on the part of the boys, but if serving at the altar is considered a "girls' job", fewer boys tend to want to serve. Those in favor of the ordination of women see the altar service as a step towards ordination, so clearly there is something to this service as a place to consider vocation.
For those upset about the altar girl thing, please know that altar girls are only allowed when there are no boys to serve (at least, that's the way it is supposed to be), just as extraordinary ministers are only permitted when there are no priests to expedite the distribution of Holy Communion. Make sure your boys are serving, and you will be less likely to see girls serving.
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog 
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 9:42am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oh dear, I was hoping some people would say how their parish made the best of things. This doesn't look too hopeful.
Mare,
It's not wrong, Pope John Paul II gave the permission, but it's not IDEAL. What does the Vatican have? This is our Mother church, and they have no female altar servers.
This permission followed the same pattern as communion in the hand. Priests and others were already allowing altar girls without the permission, they were disobedient. So JPII tried to unite by giving this permission. It hasn't worked, as you can see the posts above.
But follow the reasoning why people wanted female servers in the first place: it's perceived as a "foot up" on the way to women priests. But that's NOT going to happen, so why bother with the altar servers? It's dead end for the females. For the boys, there is the example and potential of priestly vocation. Before Vatican II, being an altar server was the first vow or profession in becoming a priest. Why take away this precious time to possibly discern or foster a vocation?
My husband mourns the loss of special place just for boys. Military, sports, all sorts of things have lost the special "male bonding"...I'm at a loss for description. I see nothing wrong with an exclusivity. There still are all female schools and organizations...why can't the men have some?
These are just thoughts. I'll pass on some quotes later, but I'm dashing out the door.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Jen L.
Forum All-Star
Joined: Oct 18 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2148
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 10:05am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Rebecca wrote:
| We have had female altar servers in our local parish for five years. There are no longer ANY boys that serve at ANY of the Masses. This seems to be the course it takes. |
|
|
I think this is the biggest problem with female altar servers. Why can't there be a place just for boys????
__________________
Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Angie Mc
Board Moderator
Joined: Jan 31 2005
Location: Arizona
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 11400
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 10:10am | IP Logged
|
|
|
FYI, out of 10 Masses offered in the winter (prime retirement visitor time), 8 have ADULT MALE alter servers. I have no idea how this got started. My best guess is that there are plenty of boys to serve but children have truly been segregated to 2 Masses, the "family" Mass and the "teen" Mass. (I won't share anything more about the teen Mass because I don't want to burden you east coasters with more worry .)
At the family Mass, the alter serving is "stacked" with boys. One girl serves occasionally. I second MacBeth...
MacBeth wrote:
| For those upset about the altar girl thing, please know that altar girls are only allowed when there are no boys to serve (at least, that's the way it is supposed to be), just as extraordinary ministers are only permitted when there are no priests to expedite the distribution of Holy Communion. Make sure your boys are serving, and you will be less likely to see girls serving. |
|
|
I believe we have boys serving because, there is a large pool and only one Mass to serve. Also, the families involved happen to have many boys.
Praying for peace in Virginia.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
About Me
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Meredith
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 08 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2355
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 10:18am | IP Logged
|
|
|
WEll, here's another perspective...my dd has been the ONLY altar server at our relatively small (and very liberal) parish since she recieved her 1st Communion 2 years ago. Now that being said, I personally don't have an opinion either way, but I will say that she has received SO MANY GRACES as a result of her serving. There are only about 3-4 boys who will serve WHEN they show up for Mass, but it is seldom. I can truly empathize with the situation and don't have any wisdom to share, praying for hope for you though!!
__________________
Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
Sweetness and Light
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 10:25am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Meredith wrote:
WEll, here's another perspective...my dd has been the ONLY altar server
|
|
|
Perfect example of when it is acceptable. But it does beg the question...where are the boys?
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Rachel May
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 24 2005
Location: Kansas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2057
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 10:38am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Angie Mc wrote:
(I won't share anything more about the teen Mass because I don't want to burden you east coasters with more worry .)
|
|
|
In Hawaii the local parish had a stereo Mass complete with bean bag chairs (no standing or kneeling allowed) and music videos. The further west the crazier it gets?
Since college, I've been in a variety of parishes all of which had both gender altar servers (one had older women one of whom said that the priest was going to ordain her and the other said she was a witch!  ). We haven't had hair and make up issues (which sadly can also be a boy issue), but clothes and shoes! I don't think any parish had a dress code for under their server garb, unless it was that they had to have clothes on.
One thing I don't like is that it turned the sacristy into a sort of mixed gender locker room. Even though no one is actually removing their clothes, it seems weird.
I've gotten used to girl altar servers, but I prefer boys only as a way of fostering vocations. Our girls will serve in the choir instead. Altar servers are nice, but a priest CAN serve himself....
__________________
Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Diane
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 01 2006
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 371
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 10:58am | IP Logged
|
|
|
As a former member of the Arlington Diocese, which is filled with so many beautiful, devout priests, I am very saddened by this news.
I will always remember how moving and hopeful it was to attend a High Mass where 6-10 HIGH SCHOOL boys, all utterly reverent and impeccably dressed, served at the altar. I witnessed this at four different parishes. Personally, I have not experienced this in any other diocese in the US (haven't been to Lincoln though) and definitely not in Europe. It's a huge loss.
While these pastors will most likely continue with a boys-only policy, I can't help but wonder what will happen if one of them is moved to a more liberal parish whose previous pastor allowed girls.
I fear that our Church is becoming more and more divided and its teachings and practices more and more diluted and misunderstood. We must all pray fervently for the protection of our Faith and the true unity of Christ's Church!
__________________
Peace,
Diane
Mom to five fair lasses and one bonny prince
The Journey of a Mother's Heart
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Meredith
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 08 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2355
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 11:10am | IP Logged
|
|
|
MacBeth wrote:
| Perfect example of when it is acceptable. But it does beg the question...where are the boys? |
|
|
My thoughts exactly and if I could figure out how to double quote from RAchel's post, I live in Hollywood central (aka Sun Valley ski resort area) and it's so sad how much they've taken away from the liturgy. Thankfully our home education efforts have been able to shield our dc from the "atmosphere" and energy if you will of the liberal agenda. Sigh.
__________________
Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
Sweetness and Light
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 3:04pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I want to point out that it clearly is not a sin or a wrongdoing for females to be altar servers. I am not condemning anyone who allows their child to be one.
I am adding the official documents and also commentaries for you to view the language of the permission, to see that although it's allowed, it's not a requirement, nor is it ideal. The ideal is giving the boys a chance to consider and nurture a priestly vocation.
Can anyone help me find the Church documents or teachings on education, where the separation of female and male classes are posed as preferred?
===================
Vatican Communication on Female Altar Servers, Rome, 15 March 1994
Letter Regarding Female Altar Servers 2001, Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Further reading and analysis:
Women for Faith and Family on the Subject of female altar servers
In 1994, the Holy See permitted bishops the option of allowing women and girls to serve as "acolytes" [altar servers], but stated that this practice "is allowed but not required"; therefore it should not be regarded as mandatory. The ruling also emphasized that "the Holy See wishes to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has also led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations."
NCR: Vatican authorizes altar girls; says this not related to women's ordination.
Zenit Female Altar Servers
Question of Altar Girls revisited
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 3:15pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Rachel May wrote:
| We haven't had hair and make up issues (which sadly can also be a boy issue), but clothes and shoes! I don't think any parish had a dress code for under their server garb, unless it was that they had to have clothes on. |
|
|
Because I'm used to the boys, when I visit other places I'm more aware of the clothes and shoes issue. It's distracting to me to see no collar and sandals and other "pretty" things. Earrings, makeup,...There are rules for the boys to wear collared shirts and black dress shoes. This should be applied to female servers, too. If they were in private school there's a dress uniform which includes the shoes. It's not too far-fetched to demand uniformity with the servers.
Rachel May wrote:
| One thing I don't like is that it turned the sacristy into a sort of mixed gender locker room. Even though no one is actually removing their clothes, it seems weird. |
|
|
That is one area of concern for me. And at those ages, there is immaturity, so unable to handle situations. Boys show off, act differently around girls, and the girls do all other silly tings. Why cause more distraction on the altar for these kids?
I'm going to plead that we at least have some options so that there will be Masses just for "all boys." I want to be able to at least compromise and seem rational in our discussion with the pastor!
Can anyone help me with some concrete discussions or quotes that talk about adolescent and pre-adolescent behavior between boys and girls?
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kathryn UK
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 27 2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 924
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 4:34pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I don't have time to say much, but just wanted to share one thought ... my 11yo dd is an altar server, a decision made after prayer and consideration, and one that seemed appropriate in our parish. One of my concerns was that altar service can be a training ground for future priests and that this is clearly not the case for girls. While watching the girl altar servers at Mass, however, it came to me that maybe they will become the mothers of future priests?
__________________
Kathryn
Dh Michael, Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06)  (11/07)
The Bookworm
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
momwise
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 28 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1914
|
| Posted: March 22 2006 at 4:56pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JennGM wrote:
| Oh dear, I was hoping some people would say how their parish made the best of things. This doesn't look too hopeful. |
|
|
Jenn...sorry I don't have time to read through all the posts just now but I wanted to address your comment.
Our diocese has had girl servers for years. Every priest I know of has them except for the F.S.P. parish.
We went to a parish where there were about equal amounts of boys and girls. The kids were allowed to show up late and if they did they dressed and served. Many kids did not show up to serve.
Now we are in a parish where it seems to be about 90% boys are serving. Servers have to be there by 15 min. before Mass and if they aren't there by 10 min. before they do not serve that day. There are boys waiting outside to take their place (my ds gets to serve many a Mass that way  ). There are 4 servers: 2 candle bearers, a book bearer, and a censor. The lead server carries the censor. Fr. prays with the kids about 5 min. before Mass.
During the summer months and school vacations a seminarian from our parish serves daily Mass and if a child wants to show up at daily Mass and serve they are welcome. In fact Fr. makes a big display of pleasure about it.
I guess the difference would be the seriousness which Fr. gives to serving at the altar. His attitude is that any of the boys might be a future vocation. In fact he was our Vocations Director at the seminary at one time (we have over 90 seminarians this year, so I think he was pretty good at it).
__________________
Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Dealing with Female Altar Servers
