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Elizabeth
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| Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:54pm | IP Logged
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jenngm67 wrote:
| I hope Michele can post all of Chapter 4 from Covenanted Happiness |
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Can we do that legally? Anyone?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MicheleQ
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jenngm67 wrote:
| I hope Michele can post all of Chapter 4 from Covenanted Happiness. |
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Sure can! But it's almost dinner time so it will have to wait until later. 
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: March 14 2006 at 4:02pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
jenngm67 wrote:
| I hope Michele can post all of Chapter 4 from Covenanted Happiness |
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Can we do that legally? Anyone? |
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Oh whoops - I dunno. How about if I just post parts of it?
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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JennGM
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| Posted: March 14 2006 at 4:04pm | IP Logged
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MicheleQ wrote:
Elizabeth wrote:
jenngm67 wrote:
| I hope Michele can post all of Chapter 4 from Covenanted Happiness |
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Can we do that legally? Anyone? |
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Oh whoops - I dunno. How about if I just post parts of it? |
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Parts, like you did before. You omitted some examples. That's within copyright...and you are giving total credit.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: March 14 2006 at 4:12pm | IP Logged
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kingvozzo wrote:
Why is it bad for NFP to be the default?
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Because it is "meant for exceptional cases, for those couples who are obliged by serious reasons-by some powerful and overriding factor-to deprive themselves of the fulfilling joy and the enriching value of children. A couple who, in the absence of such an overriding factor, choose not to have more children, are starving their conjugal love of its natural fruit and stunting its growth. They are lessening their mutual preparedness for sacrifice and in that way undermining the mutual esteem that can bind them together." (Ch. 4 Family Planning - Covenanted Happiness by Cormac Burke)
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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kingvozzo
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I did just order the book, (Covenanted Happiness) so I'll be glad to dive into it when it comes.
I'm really trying to understand all this, and I appreciate all the patience that is so obvious here.
I know that in many ways, my faith is in it's baby stages, and my understanding is so infantile. I also know that the knowledge of NFP has been a blessing in my marriage. The only time DH and I actually were "trying to avoid" (in the loosest sense)  a pregnancy, is when we conceived our first, (which was surely not seen as a 'failure') and we've really come away from the desire to do any charting in the years since. Our faith in God's plan for our family has increased enormously. And I agree with Elizabeth
Elizabeth wrote:
| For those of us who understand NFP to be a privation and who recognize the abundance of graces showered on our families--particularly on our marriages--when we embrace a more traditional Catholic view of married s*xuality,there is an earnest desire to share the treasure, to shout it to the world |
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I don't think the blessings can be underestimated.
But there is an attitude sometimes (and not here, by any stretch) that NFP is acceptable, but, it's really not quite as good as leaving it up to God. The Church does permit NFP, and we can trust in that, as it's some part of Her wisdom as well.
I'm trying to find some of JPII's writing about marriage etc, because I recall him moving away from the 'grave' and 'serious' language that seems to be in some of the older resources. We'll see....
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Noreen
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Mom to 4 great kids and 10 sweet ones in Our Lady's arms
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Erica Sanchez
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MicheleQ wrote:
| Because it is "meant for exceptional cases, for those couples who are obliged by serious reasons-by some powerful and overriding factor-to deprive themselves of the fulfilling joy and the enriching value of children. |
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The exceptional reasons are fairly gray, are they not, as Noreen and Jane are trying to say? There is not a "list" out there, cetainly not one that would apply to each and every couple here in the U.S. or worldwide. What is exceptional to one couple might be completely doable for another? That is the Church's wisdom, is it not? Of course there are couples using NFP with a "contraception mentality", but please, please correct me if I am wrong to say that even in their (my) flawed understanding/use of NFP, it WOULD NOT be a SIN to abstain from the marital act. I could be sick or just not feel like it. Or, a husband and wife could truly make a month by month decision, maybe even an agonizing one, to postpone pregnancy. God will give us children regardless of the charts (or for that matter, the pills) if it is His will, anyway, or not give us children even though that may be our greatest desire. Abstaining would not be a sin. Now, maybe as has been said by Lisbet and others, they/I would be missing out on the beauty and awesomeness of the total surrender of their/my fertility to God by continuing to use NFP (for myself it is mainly for spacing), but it WOULD NOT be a SIN to use it. I know this is not the Church's teaching. Please don't think I think anyone is trying to say that, especially the sin part, but I think it would be easy for some to read this thread and start to freak out (well, O.K., maybe not freak out!) because they are using NFP.
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: March 14 2006 at 4:39pm | IP Logged
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I don't think anyone said it was a sin. I think what was said was that by definition it cannot be both the default mode and the exception.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Erica Sanchez
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I don't think anyone is saying it is a sin, either. I didn't mean that at all, just wanting to clarify for my own understanding and true weakness when it comes to the control I've come to be a little too comfortable with as far as spacing in my own NFP use, right Martha and Lisbet .
Michelle, would it be a sin to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality, as flawed as that would be? I still don't think it would be, but you know way more about this than I.
I will definitely pray for you for your upcoming talk, but you say things very beatifully anyway and you'll be great! I'll pray that your audience is particulary open to all you have to say.
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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kingvozzo
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Erica Sanchez wrote:
I will definitely pray for you for your upcoming talk, but you say things very beatifully anyway and you'll be great! I'll pray that your audience is particulary open to all you have to say. |
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Ditto!
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Noreen
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Mom to 4 great kids and 10 sweet ones in Our Lady's arms
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Lisbet
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Please realize that I was only sharing my own personal experience with my return of fertility after having a baby, and how I've come to accept it as Gods will for myself. I am not at all trying to tell you how you should look at it for yourself and in your situation. I know for me, it really helps to hear from other mothers how they handle/view certain situations.
I am also not saying that NFP is a sin. I do though, look around me at the Catholic families I know, some very well, that are 'using' NFP, and wonder, "is my life/family/situation really so easy breezy that I am amoung the very few not having a reason to worry about spacing my babies???
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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MicheleQ
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Would it be a sin to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality?
I asked a priest about this and his answer was that abstainig specifically to avoid pregnancy with no reagrd to serious reasons etc. but rather motivated by selfishness would not be a mortal sin but could indeed be a venial sin. He said "could" be because we don't know the individual circumstances but his point was that we can't rule out sin simply because one abstains rather than contracepts.
So yes, it could be.
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Erica Sanchez
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Thanks, Michelle. Venial sin did enter my mind as I was typing earlier. Your answer makes total sense.
Oh Lisbet, I know you're not trying to tell me what to do and I love you sharing your stories! You are a true inspiration to me and I'm sure to many others! You are doing what I am way too afraid to do, that's all I meant. 
God bless you all - I'm shutting down the computer, at least for a few hours, to go get some things done!
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Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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humanaevitae
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I am in need of wisdom as I'm sure some of you have experienced this.
I have been struggling with the fact that my pregnancies take a very hard toll on our family. I am very ill while pregnant and am basically on bedrest(just because of being so sick). I can accept the suffering but am concerned about my lack of mothering to our children during that time. My dh has now started traveling and I'm concerned with the heavy burden that would be placed upon my oldest ds's shoulders.(He is 9) I'm also concerned about the lack of schooling and child training that happens. Basically our house just shuts down while I'm pregnant and we're just trying to survive.
Although I would welcome another child in a heartbeat, I'm wondering if that would be selfish when I would be unable to take care of the children I have already? My dh thinks it would be prudent to wait a couple of years for the children to get a little older and to save up some money to hire help for when I could get pregnant again.
What have you all done? Would you be concerned about placing your 9yo in "mother" position for 9M? I don't want my kids to grow up thinking I only cared about having another baby instead of taking care of them.
How does one decide if one is exhibiting a lack of faith or just using prudence?
Thanks,
Nicole
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Nicole-Zane 10, Elizabeth 7, Xavier 4, and John Patrick 2
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mumofsix
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Martha: I think we are basically on the same side! I am the crazy Michelle Duggar figure in my little English parish.  I have way more children than anyone else. I don't think I have been explaining myself very well so I will just say that I have found it very useful to go to primary sources to understand these issues: "Humanae Vitae" is very good. You will find a good explanation of the balance between the primary duty to be generous at the service of life (which you explain and live so well) and the need to practise responsible parenthood, which is the church's teaching also.
Nicole: I am sure others will have better answers, but I think in your position the view of your husband would be the key. He can see objectively, in a way that is a bit more difficult for you, exactly how everything works in your family. I would say that you could follow his advice with confidence, since it seems to be based on prudence, love and generosity. Jmho!
Jane.
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Martha
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humanaevitae wrote:
What have you all done? Would you be concerned about placing your 9yo in "mother" position for 9M? I don't want my kids to grow up thinking I only cared about having another baby instead of taking care of them.
How does one decide if one is exhibiting a lack of faith or just using prudence?
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I have that same experience with all of mine too. Losing 15 - 20 lbs in the 1st trimester. Half unconscience sick for the majority of 4 or 5 months. Dh out of town. There are medications that offer some limited relief and each pregnancy is different. Drugs or herbs that helped with some didn't with other and the reverse.
We have developed a family motto of sorts over the years:
"Family takes care of family."
Sounds rather mafia-ish, but it certainly should be true! And it applies to all family members regardless of age, sex or attitude. lol I see nothing wrong with the dc learning to care for each other, and yes even theri parents too a bit. Afterall, one day I will be old and frail and in need of them. One day, I will be gone and each other will be all they have. One day, they will have spouses and children to care for. These times are bootcamp for times to come in their futures.
I have found running a well ordered house with chores and such to be a big help too. Then when crisis hits, (and if it's not a pregnancy, it'll just be something else) it's really not that big a deal as far as basic house needs being met.
Also, learn to command from a throne as my dh says. Typically, this is moms bed, the sofa, or the reclyner. I can tell them to make their bed or help a brother just as easily from there while resting as while walking around exhausted. Oh! And keep these thngs in mind when homeschooling too. Insist on self-learning in children above 1st grade. Did they read the directions and give it a solid try before comming to you? Are the materials simply presented so they can progress on their own? I find this to be especially helpfull in reading, writing, and math areas. The other subjects we usually tackle as a group and I don't feel are as essential as the 4 R's.
I don't think my dc view me as only concerned about having babies anymore than they view daddy as nothing more than a diabetic or grandma as nothing more than an alzhiemers sickness. Or I would view any of them as nothing more than yet another diaper to change or pile of laundry to wash. lol It's just life, with all it's joys and pains. 
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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Elizabeth
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Martha wrote:
| I have that same experience with all of mine too. Half unconscience sick for the majority of 4 or 5 months. Dh out of town. There are medications that offer some limited relief and each pregnancy is different. Drugs or herbs that helped with some didn't with other and the reverse. |
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This is where I am right now. Did you know that you can keyboard with your head on the desk?  For me, there is the reality that my fertility has slowed considerably. I'm forty. Those babies used to come every two years. There will be exactly four years between this baby and the sibling closest. So, I'm not really worried about years and years of this. On the other hand, I CAN look back on years and years of this. I was in bed this morning, trying desperately to get vertical, when my firstborn (ds 17) called from the community college campus to tell me he'd aced a biology exam  . My three-year-old was climbing on my head. And in between, chaos reigned. Two days ago, this was really discouraging me. Today, I am recognizing that this is all very short term. The chance of a baby after this one is pretty slim. All the others seem to have survived hyperemesis fairly well. I can't even remember how I did it when everyone was under 10. But I can tell you that I don't think there is any longterm damage. And all my kids want big families. There are some academic gaps and my house doesn't look like the Duggars (that might be bugging me most of all), but they are really great kids and we CAN fill in the academic holes. There has been a quantity of horizontal time for mom--time when the kids have been self-directed in their lessons and when the big kids have helped the littles.Truth be told, there have also been days when they've done nothing but play and make messes  . I never pulled out the St. Brigid book on her feast day and we still haven't made our traditional crown of thorns. We're not getting to the Vigil notebooks, either  . But we will all learn something and I have a sense it's something important. If nothing else, they are all taking a huge interest in cooking and planning meals, probably out of desperation . I Know I'll look back at this time and remember that this was when a whole bunch of little foodies was born. I think a whole bunch of good characters are being nurtured too.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Rachel May
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I can't even remember how I did it when everyone was under 10. |
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My answer to this is always "grace". The only time that I had hyperemesis and children AND needed medical attention, my guardian angel sent me all the help I needed in the form of a large Catholic homeschooling family.
I think it can be a good situation to "let family take care of family." The other day, when I was telling the current 3 yo that he is not old enough to use knives, one of the twins reminded me that he learned to make PB and J (with a knife) at age 3 because I was too sick to even do that. I like the idea that he has learned to care for his siblings, and he likes knowing that he was a real help to the family. This makes me think of the story in Real Learning about the oldest holding the sick and sleeping baby on a very hot day. I cried when I read it a few days ago.
I'm curious if anyone lets their children weigh in on the decision to have another? If you feel that it will be a burden on them, do you make their views a part of your prayerful decision making?
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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mumofsix
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Rachel - we have been obliged to let our children weigh in on the decision to have another. As an adoptive family, our home study assessments have always mandatorily included the childrens' points of view. When old enough (10+) they have been interviewed separately and asked to write an account of their feelings about a new sibling. They could, any of them, have scuppered any one of our adoptions. They have always, all of them, been eager to the point of desperation to have another baby in the family, and their essays have read something like "Why this is the greatest family in the world and why it would be so great for any baby out there to join our family". They all want to have big families except the one who wants to be a nun. Say what you will, there is definitely something about large families that encourages a love of new life like nothing else.
Jane.
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Lisbet
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Everyone under 10 has been my reality for a long time now!! I will finally have 1 over 10 next week! I look back, and I simply cannot give the details of how we've managed. Definetly through His Grace, anything else just wouldn't cut it!
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Topic: Making the Leap
