Oh, Dearest Mother, Sweetest Virgin of Altagracia, our Patroness. You are our Advocate and to you we recommend our needs. You are our Teacher and like disciples we come to learn from the example of your holy life. You are our Mother, and like children, we come to offer you all of the love of our hearts. Receive, dearest Mother, our offerings and listen attentively to our supplications. Amen.



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kingvozzo
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Posted: March 14 2006 at 1:55pm | IP Logged Quote kingvozzo

MicheleQ wrote:

They are afraid and I can understand that but the words of JPII echo so strongly in all this -- "BE NOT AFRAID!". We must realize the Truth has its own power to convert. Ours is to give the fullness of truth, not water it down to make it more palatable. What these teachers need to understand is that what they are doing is WRONG because it is a lie. I fully recognize that many teachers are not well formed in this area so it of course lessens culpability - but to whom much is given much is expected and those of us who know this are in some way obligated to teach it.


I have been following this thread with great interest. I don't understand how what these teachers are doing is WRONG by presenting NFP as an option for everyone. The CCC states (2368)--italics mine-- "For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality..."
I think that "just" reasons is a very reasonable way of looking at it. And it is a much broader criteria than "grave." I believe that spouses are given fairly wide latitude in discerning to what size family God is calling them.
We do live in a culture that doesn't value children, or the sacrificial love associated with them. I know that the gift of parenthood is bringing me far closer to heaven than I could possibly get without that gift. NFP can be used contraceptively, without a doubt. I agree that one of the beauties of NFP is that it's a decision that is re-visited monthly. I don't think it's watering down the truth to present the truth in a way that actually seems achievable to people. Many people have been brought to a place where they are completely open to life by having NFP presented to them first.
I know this post is rambling...I am so enjoying the chance to discuss this issue with women of more clarity than me

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:02pm | IP Logged Quote kingvozzo

Another thought, regarding the idea of "heroic virtue." I think of Gianna Molla, and her decision to forego cancer treatment because it would mean the death of her as-yet-unborn baby. This was a remarkable decision, one that resulted in her death, but the survival of her baby. It was certainly a factor in her beatification. All her children were left without a mother. BUT, she would not have sinned to have submitted to the cancer treatment. Her's is a story of heroic virtue, something to which we are NOT all called.
I think much the same can be said about families and NFP. It is wonderful in so many ways to be truly and fully open to whatever size family God wills to you. But, again, it is no sin (under most circumstances) to use NFP.

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:09pm | IP Logged Quote Lisbet

Could you please elaborate a bit on heroic virtue not being something we are all called to? I'm afraid I must be misunderstanding.

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:12pm | IP Logged Quote Martha

mumofsix wrote:
Martha: the church teaches that it is good to be generous in the service of life BUT that we are not thereby excused our duty to make prudential decisions about family size. It is all in Humanae Vitae.

As Catholics we are bound to accept the Church's teaching on this.

It would be wrong to impose that expectation on others, though, or to claim that this is what the Church teaches or expects at all times and in all cases: it simply does not.


*sigh*

I never imposed anything or claimed to not accept any Church teaching. And actually, that is not the way the Church states it. We have the option of NFP use for serious reasons. However, we do not have any "duty" or obligation whatsoever to use it.

The questions are: What is prudent? Is it really prudence or fear and social conditioning?

The Chruch is very vague about this. At no point does it define or give any perimeters to guide us in this particuliar area. The most we are given is "serious reason" to act prudently with NFP. And even that is fairly new conversation and mostly as a response to the birth control movements. Is fear a serious reason? Is social pressure a serious reason? Is fear of a thousand "what if's" serious or prudent enough? The reality is that most people, Catholic or not, use NFP for the same reasons and in the same manner as birth control.

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:22pm | IP Logged Quote Cay Gibson

mumofsix wrote:

Zelie Martin set great store by dressing her girls well: modestly but fashionably also, though without excess.



Jane,
Same track... I was looking for my book "Story of a Family" to share this same thought.

Isn't there a thin line between having pride and having dignity?

Making sure our children are well-dressed, etc. can encompass pride. Madame Martin even wrote about that. She did have "pride" in her children's appearance and she admitted it! She was also very careful not to transfer any hint of pride over onto her children. But she did well in establishing a sense of dignity in their appearance and, thus, within themselves.

I don't think any of us would say we're perfect. that would be hypocritical of us. Only Christ was "perfect." What we're trying to do is bless our dc with a sense of worth and dignity...not so much pride.

I took my oldest dd shopping last night. I'm fully aware that when the younger two girls are of age to shop and worry about their clothes, I'll probably have more time and money to spend with them. My oldest dd will be off at college or have a job or a family of her own. I don't want to miss out on the occasional shopping trip and time spent with her. My oldest dd is just as important to me. I want to build these memories with her. Often we have the two younger ones with us. Last night we didn't. It was a treat for me to buy a shirt she wanted and to sit at the Sonic drive-thru and enjoy a chocolate malt with her...just the two of us.

My little girls have lots of hand-me-downs because there are so many girl cousins in the family. It's a little thing for me to buy them a special Easter bow for their hair or new stockings with hearts on it...but it's a big productiion for them. It's the little things that count.

The little ways are how we show our dc that we love them, that they are special to us, that they are gifts from God to us. And it doesn't always have to be through clothing or gifts that require money. The little ways. Always the little ways... Evidently even the families who shop at Goodwill have learned that it is not the clothes or the gift that matters; it's the way the gift is presented.

Here's a site I found today that gives one ideas for small gift giving for small occasion:

Small Gifts

Here's a couple from the site that one could give to their children to lift their spirits or show them they're special. Doesn't cost much of anything...just shows you care and are thinking of them (If you notice, it's the note included that makes all the difference):

7-UP:7-UPlifting thoughts for a good week. (include seven uplifting thoughts/ideas)

A bar of soap with a note: Just a little visit with you washes away the blues.

A package of seeds: My love for you just keeps growing!

A rope with a knot in it: When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on we'll come runnin'!

A sucker: A visit with you makes our life sweeter.

An Apple: You're such a polished person

Bubble gum or bubble bath: You have a bubbling personality.

Cake or Cupcakes: You take the Cake ________, We think you're first rate!

Cake with frosting: When it comes to _______, you're the icing on the cake.


HAve I gotten totally off-topic, or what?!

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:32pm | IP Logged Quote kingvozzo

Lisbet wrote:
Could you please elaborate a bit on heroic virtue not being something we are all called to? I'm afraid I must be misunderstanding.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia definition,
"An heroic virtue, then, is a habit of good conduct that has become a second nature, a new motive power stronger than all corresponding inborn inclinations, capable of rendering easy a series of acts each of which, for the ordinary man, would be beset with very great, if not insurmountable, diffulties."
It is a requirement for canonization.
I believe it's a spiritual gift that not all will be given, rather than saying we're not all called to it.
Clear as mud, I'm afraid.

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:40pm | IP Logged Quote Martha

mumofsix wrote:

One family is admirable
The other is ... hmmm.

I personally know of several young couples who are tempted to use contraceptives because "we don't want to end up like the Xs".]

I would hazard a guess those families would use contraceptives regardless of the family examples around them because they are only going to look at the bad to justify their already made up minds.

[And if you are forced to ignore your children's appearance to the extent that they are a public laughing stock, how sensitive are you going to be able to be to their feelings, needs and wishes in general?]

I'd have to know the children, but it speaks less of the public they are around than them to me. Also, I remember my youthful school days rather more than I'd like.    The "goths", the "skaters", the "rockers", the "preps", and so on. The parents may not be ignoring anything, so much as focusing on other matters of greater importance to them. You'd be surprised what kids LIKE to wear and how they like to wear it. I'd be less likely to laugh at them and more likely to laugh at my own memories of youth.

[In every indicator, physical and mental health, educational attainment, growth, IQ, you name it, the children from the large families came out worse ... EXCEPT for those families who had taken a conscious decision

Maybe a degree of thoughtfulness and prudence is ESSENTIAL if the outcome for a large family is to be a good one?


hmmm, which begs the question: What is a "good family"? And does it matter? Are we arguing that only supposedly "good" families should have children and that it's not "prudent" for anyone less than that perception of goodness to have children? And if that is going to be the arguement, wouldn't it be more prudent to say those who don't meet the perception of goodness shouldn't have any at all, rather than it being a question of having a large family?

As usual, a very interesting discusion...

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:50pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

kingvozzo wrote:
I have been following this thread with great interest. I don't understand how what these teachers are doing is WRONG by presenting NFP as an option for everyone.


That's not the whole presentation. I think it's presented as "Are you on birth control? That's forbidden by the Church. Here is NFP, the safe and effective alternative."

I know that's not universal, but that's the initial approach I see. As Catholics, we are counter-cultural, so presenting to these engaged couples we are almost apologetic in explaining that NFP is for extreme reasons, if that is even mentioned. I didn't hear that once. I heard more of "If you're Catholic, you live an NFP lifestyle. It's good for your marriage."

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:52pm | IP Logged Quote mumofsix

Martha - you are right, we do not have a duty to use NFP. We do have the duty to be responsible parents, however. The conversation about NFP is only "new" insofar as scientific understanding in some cases is new. The Church's insistence on responsible parenthood is age-old.

The Church is "vague" about the reasons why one may use NFP to postpone a pregnancy for the reason I stated in an earlier post: it depends entirely upon the individual circumstances, capacity, etc. of the couple concerned. For example, a serious illness that might render one couple absolutely unable to parent another child adequately might be a doable challenge for a different couple with greater resources. (See my Sunday Mass obligation comparison.) This is why there is no handy dandy checklist: one woman's heroically virtuous challenge is another woman's breaking point, and the Church in her wisdom understands that.

Yes there can be bad reasons for using NFP: social pressure and fear, as you say. There can certainly be good and prudent reasons too. There can also be bad reasons to have another child: a refusal to accept the responsibility for proper discernment or perhaps pride in some cases. It is nearly impossible to judge others on this individually, though we certainly have to make these judgements for ourselves.

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:59pm | IP Logged Quote Lisbet

mumofsix wrote:
Martha - you are right, we do not have a duty to use NFP. We do have the duty to be responsible parents, however. The conversation about NFP is only "new" insofar as scientific understanding in some cases is new. The Church's insistence on responsible parenthood is age-old.



So this leads me to the questions of why, since all the scientific information about NFP became available, do so many couples all of a sudden have to limit their family size to be 'responsible parents'. Why are we all of a sudden so much weaker than those married couples before that had no knowledge of child spacing? Why are our breaking points so much more fragile?

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:02pm | IP Logged Quote Bookswithtea

As always, a fascinating discussion, friends. Thanks to you all for sharing. I have learned a lot. At this time, I think I am going to bow out.

I pray that nothing I said was hurtful to anyone, and if so, I apologize.

Blessings,

~Books
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Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:03pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

Martha wrote:
*sigh* This is what my dh and I call the "but" clauses to the pro-life stance. Not saying you mean it that way, but we encounter it often.

Children are blessing BUT only if:
you can afford them - whatever that means
they are well-behaved
they are healthy
the family is christian - whatever the view of that is
they present well in public
nothing bad happen to them
the parents are sterling examples for others
they are wanted
they are planned
or... the list goes on.


Thanks for chastising me, Martha. I like the "but" list...very good. Most of my siblings weren't "planned" but NFP charting mistakes...and I wouldn't trade in one of my 6 siblings for the world.

Seeing this family is just an interior struggle of mine. It's not that I think they shouldn't have a large family, it's just the parents aren't always prudent or on top of things. I don't just mean in public. As the children get older they are more behaved and responsible. They are intelligent children, very holy, and allowed to be individuals....so I do have good things to say for them.

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:17pm | IP Logged Quote Martha

mumofsix wrote:
There can also be bad reasons to have another child: a refusal to accept the responsibility for proper discernment or perhaps pride in some cases. It is nearly impossible to judge others on this individually, though we certainly have to make these judgements for ourselves.


For the most part, I was in agreement with you until the very end there. I have never heard of a bad reason to have a baby from the Church?

And again, does it matter why or under what conditions the parents have children? Can we define responsible parenting? According to what most modern, western societies judge as "responsible" would blackball 75% of the world's population from having children and by most accounts of history most of us shouldn't be here now.

Before NFP, the notion of responsible parenthood had very little to do with material goods or social pressure. It was almost entirely defined as parents who raise their children to be strong in faith with moral fortitude. Children were just a natural given by-product of marriage and the notion of discernment about how many was never really an issue.

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:18pm | IP Logged Quote MicheleQ

kingvozzo wrote:
I don't understand how what these teachers are doing is WRONG by presenting NFP as an option for everyone.

It is wrong if it is being presented as an alternative to birth control which was what I understood Jenn to be saying.

Quote:
The CCC states (2368)--italics mine-- "For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality..."
I think that "just" reasons is a very reasonable way of looking at it. And it is a much broader criteria than "grave." I believe that spouses are given fairly wide latitude in discerning to what size family God is calling them.

Taken by itself the term "just" might seem pretty broad. But we aren't "Catechism Alone" Catholics. The Catechism has to be interpreted in light of the living tradition of the Church, which is why it is footnoted to various other documents. The living tradition of the Church is that periodic abstinence for the spacing of children is to be used for serious and grave reasons.

Quote:
I don't think it's watering down the truth to present the truth in a way that actually seems achievable to people.

As long as it's presented fully it's not watering it down but if it's not we are decieving people. No matter what the intention the end doesn't justify the means. I know you know that and I don't mean to imply otherwise, just making a point here.

Quote:
Many people have been brought to a place where they are completely open to life by having NFP presented to them first.

Sure, because God can bring good out of everything. But how much MORE success would we see if people were given the whole truth from the beginning?

God bless!


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Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:19pm | IP Logged Quote Martha

Lisbet wrote:

So this leads me to the questions of why, since all the scientific information about NFP became available, do so many couples all of a sudden have to limit their family size to be 'responsible parents'. Why are we all of a sudden so much weaker than those married couples before that had no knowledge of child spacing? Why are our breaking points so much more fragile?


I second that question!

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:27pm | IP Logged Quote Martha

jenngm67 wrote:
Thanks for chastising me, Martha.


Noooo! I'm very sorry! My post was not intended as a chastisement of anyone. Rather an effort to illuminate on the an issue that many shy away from addressing when it comes to talking about the value of children. I feel strongly that it should be addressed aggressively because these are the very arguements anti-family/children advocates use to support their agendas. Yet, these are also the best examples of families and children that need all the encouragement we have to offer.

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:35pm | IP Logged Quote kingvozzo

jenngm67 wrote:
That's not the whole presentation. I think it's presented as "Are you on birth control? That's forbidden by the Church. Here is NFP, the safe and effective alternative."

I know that's not universal, but that's the initial approach I see. As Catholics, we are counter-cultural, so presenting to these engaged couples we are almost apologetic in explaining that NFP is for extreme reasons, if that is even mentioned. I didn't hear that once. I heard more of "If you're Catholic, you live an NFP lifestyle. It's good for your marriage."

But, NFP isn't just for extreme reasons. The Catechism gives "just" reasons as the parameters. I'm wracking my brain right now to remember some of the other resource I have clarifying these teachings...
I'm really not trying to be contrary, just trying to understand the other perspective.
Why is it bad for NFP to be the default? Can it be understood to be 'baby steps' toward a fuller understanding? Many people approaching the Church for marriage have never heard ANY teaching of Her's, particularly our very counter-cultural ones about marriage and family.



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Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:35pm | IP Logged Quote Elizabeth

Martha wrote:
Lisbet wrote:

So this leads me to the questions of why, since all the scientific information about NFP became available, do so many couples all of a sudden have to limit their family size to be 'responsible parents'. Why are we all of a sudden so much weaker than those married couples before that had no knowledge of child spacing? Why are our breaking points so much more fragile?


I second that question!


Perhaps it is because large families are not supported by society the way they once were. Or more importantly, perhaps it's because--with a few exceptions-- they are not supported and encouraged by the Church in America. It's rare to hear a homily encouraging openness to life and assurance of God's provision. It's rare to be congratulated by a beaming pastor when announcing a new baby on the way (I will NEVER forget the twinkle in my pastor's eye and the absolute delight on his face when he became the third person to know after me and my dh). YOung families who are growing rapidly have few role models in their parishes; they have limited resources for mentoring. We can begin to effect change in the way that large families are perceived. It begins quietly in places like this and it grows as our confidence grows, as our sense of community grows, so that we can reach out to other young women. Perhaps if we do that, they won't be nearly so fragile. At the very least, we can do that for each other .



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Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:48pm | IP Logged Quote Elizabeth

kingvozzo wrote:
But, NFP isn't just for extreme reasons. The Catechism gives "just" reasons as the parameters.
I'm really not trying to be contrary, just trying to understand the other perspective.
Why is it bad for NFP to be the default? Can it be understood to be 'baby steps' toward a fuller understanding? Many people approaching the Church for marriage have never heard ANY teaching of Her's, particularly our very counter-cultural ones about marriage and family.



I think we need to give some credit and our complete confidence to the wisdom of the Church. It might just be that those very teachings which we think people cannot accept readily are the truths for which they are hungering. The whole truth will win them and it will liberate them. If NFP is the default mode, aren't we denying them the fullness of married love? For those of us who understand NFP to be a privation and who recognize the abundance of graces showered on our families--particularly on our marriages--when we embrace a more traditional Catholic view of married s*xuality, there is an earnest desire to share the treasure, to shout it to the world. It's a natural outgrowth of the joy of knowing truth. Sure, it's tempered with the recognition of the true challenges that come with living life this way; that's why there are so many practical threads on this particular board. And yes, there is likely to be more heartbreak. It's rare to find a mother of many who has not suffered the sorrow of miscarriage or the challenge of a special needs child. But still there is this joy that comes from the children themselves and from the intensity of the love that was there at their creation. It's the joy that compels us to want more for our brothers and sisters than the NFP default.

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Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:49pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

Martha wrote:
Lisbet wrote:

So this leads me to the questions of why, since all the scientific information about NFP became available, do so many couples all of a sudden have to limit their family size to be 'responsible parents'. Why are we all of a sudden so much weaker than those married couples before that had no knowledge of child spacing? Why are our breaking points so much more fragile?


I second that question!


I hope Michele can post all of Chapter 4 from Covenanted Happiness. This answers so many of these ponderings! My scanner doesn't work well, otherwise I'd volunteer. But in brief, I'll quote him because I see him answering this so clearly:
Children and the standard of life

Since about 1960, the choice of many couples to limit their family to two or three children has corresponded less and less to any exceptional difficulty offered by the prospect of a large family, and more and more to the simple desire to avoid the normal difficulties that such a family involves. All of this has tended to bring about a radical change in the way that marriage and the family are understood. Values have become less human and more materialistic.

People sacrifice themselves for the things they think worthwhile. The point is that fewer and fewer couples seem to feel that children--beyond one or two at the most--are worthwhile. Motor cars, country cottages, overseas holidays--these are all now part of one's standard of life and considered worth working for. The more one can have of these, the better off one is. Children are not part of one's standard of life: a family is not "better off" if it has more children. The materialistic, non-Christian standard operating here should be evident.

Until a generation ago, most Catholics would have had little difficulty in grasping the deep human truth behind the words that Pope John Paul II addressed to parents in Washington, D.C., in October 1979: "It is certainly less serious to deny their children certain comforts of material advantages than to deprive them of the presence of brothers and sisters, who could help them to grow in human ity and to realize the beauty of life at all its ages and in all its variety." Married couples today seem to find it harder to recognize that children are values of a totally unique order, that to deprive their presnet children, or themselves, of further members within the family marks a serious limitation or reducation in one's standard of living, and that one only devalues human effort and sacrifice if one works for comfort, prestige, or possessions rather than for one's children.

A family over-geared to material comfort is certainly not the best seedbed for a religious vocation. Youth always retains a natural idealism; but a soft atmosphere in the upbringing of children does not favor the serious flowering of ideals. It is almost impossible for a teenager to acquire a spirit of sacrifice unless he or she comes from a family where it has been present. And it will not be present in a family unless it has been lived first by the parents, who then inculcate it in their children.

The consumer mentality, with its emphasis on possessions and money and calculation, does not favor vocations to religious life. Where the blessing of poverty of spirit is less present, people's hearts are less drawn to the service of the Kingdom of God.


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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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