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Mackfam
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| Posted: Oct 16 2010 at 1:32pm | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
| Ok, maybe I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that you only read aloud the amount your child can retain. For instance, in a longer passage you would read small chunks of it and wait for him to write, and then read some more, etc, until the passage is complete. |
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You're right. I may not have explained myself very clearly above.  But, what you've described is what I do. When my son is having more difficulty retaining what he's hearing, I read aloud less at a time.
lapazfarm wrote:
| If this is the case, then the length of the passage is not as significant than if you are asking them to write the entire passage from one reading. Then the length would be more significant. |
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UNLESS...you have a student for whom the act of writing is still challenging. This is where I am with one of my students. His writing and his abilities are improving slowly and steadily, and I'm also gently increasing the amount of his writing...which means longer dictation selections for him. What I think was happening is that since this particular child also has a very good memory, he was actually retaining (or memorizing) the very short dictation selections I was offering previously. Now that the selections are longer, he needs to build his ability to offer attention in this area rather than relying on his memory for the entire selection. Thus my explanation above.
lapazfarm wrote:
| I remember a previous discussion about the differences between the videos describing the WTM (Susan Wise Bauer) method of prepared dictation vs the SCM (Sonya Schaeffer) method. The WTM method seemed to emphasise memorization, while Scm did not. She breaks the passage into chunks as she reads, so that memorization of the passage is unnecessary and the child can focus on grammar, spelling and punctuation of the passage. |
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I was thinking of that thread as well.
lapazfarm wrote:
| My impression is that CM's intent was that dictation is not supposed to be memory work, but grammar, spelling, punctuation work, as SCM preesents it. |
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This is the general idea I get as well, however, I did find one little mention of dictation skills being employed as the WTM method describes.
From the Fall 1921 PNEU Programme of study in CM's schools:
Emphasis mine...
Quote:
Dictation (A New Handwriting to be used)
Two or three pages or a passage to be prepared first from a newspaper; or, from the prose and poetry set for reading; a paragraph to be then dictated in III, in IV to be occasionally written from memory. |
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Form IV would be about 8th - 9th grade.
lapazfarm wrote:
It seems like a small thing, but really it is a clear dichotomy in the underlying purpose to the exercise, so it is a more profound difference than it seems at first glance.
What say you ladies??? |
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I agree. There is a difference in the purpose of the dictation exercises and the way it is employed. It would appear that at least in the upper grades, the PNEU students did work to write some selections from memory. Since I don't find that emphasized in any of CM's writings (at least not that I can find yet) it has left me wondering a bit. For now, we continue to use dictation as CM describes it - to build attention, and build the skills of spelling/grammar/mechanics as well as penmanship practice. I do not ask the child to memorize the selection. If an older child were memorizing dictation work, I'd want to be clear and offer new tools to build that skill.
I was reading at SCM the other day (in their language arts posts maybe??) and they mention what they call transcription...which seems to be a part of the studying of the dictation. (An aside...I thought of transcription as something different altogether...so I'm off on a rabbit trail to find out what CM means by the word.) As part of studying the dictation, SCM encourages the student to look at the word and write from memory rather than looking back and forth constantly. It struck me that it blends the two ideas a little.
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Oct 16 2010 at 1:39pm | IP Logged
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Ok, I get what you are saying. I have a child like that but I am holding off on dictation with her for now and focusing on copywork and memorization of short passages to narrate aloud.
Mackfam wrote:
I was reading at SCM the other day (in their language arts posts maybe??) and they mention what they call transcription...which seems to be a part of the studying of the dictation. (An aside...I thought of transcription as something different altogether...so I'm off on a rabbit trail to find out what CM means by the word.) As part of studying the dictation, SCM encourages the student to look at the word and write from memory rather than looking back and forth constantly. It struck me that it blends the two ideas a little. |
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Funny, I was reading at Ambleside Online yesterday and came across the same term--"transcription". Over there they said it is the term CM used for copywork.
Seems to be the more answers we get the more questions we end up with!LOL!
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Theresa
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Oct 16 2010 at 1:43pm | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
Funny, I was reading at Ambleside Online yesterday and came across the same term--"transcription". Over there they said it is the term CM used for copywork.
Seems to be the more answers we get the more questions we end up with!LOL! |
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I've seen it there too...and thought the same thing...so I was totally confused when SCM used it in a different way. Maybe I'll come back here and list all the different ways transcription is used in a CM context! 
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: Oct 16 2010 at 1:45pm | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
| I was reading at SCM the other day (in their language arts posts maybe??) and they mention what they call transcription...which seems to be a part of the studying of the dictation. (An aside...I thought of transcription as something different altogether...so I'm off on a rabbit trail to find out what CM means by the word.) As part of studying the dictation, SCM encourages the student to look at the word and write from memory rather than looking back and forth constantly. It struck me that it blends the two ideas a little. |
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Transcription ala CM:
Home Education pg. 238 CM wrote:
XI.––Transcription
Value of Transcription––The earliest practice in writing proper for children of seven or eight should be, not letter writing or dictation, but transcription, slow and beautiful work, for which the New Handwriting is to be preferred, though perhaps some of the more ornate characters may be omitted with advantage.
Transcription should be an introduction to spelling. Children should be encouraged to look at the word, see a picture of it with their eyes shut, and then write from memory.
Children should Transcribe favourite Passages.––A certain sense of possession and delight may be added to this exercise if children are allowed to choose for transcription their favourite verse in one poem and another. This is better than to write a favourite poem, an exercise which stales on the little people before it is finished. But a book of their own, made up of their own chosen verses, should give them pleasure.
Small Text-Hand––Double-ruled Lines––Double ruled lines, small text-hand, should be used at first, as children are eager to write very minute 'small hand,' and once they have fallen into this habit it is not easy to get good writing. A sense of beauty in their writing and in the lines they copy should carry them over this stage of their work with pleasure. Not more than ten minutes or a quarter of an hour should be given to the early writing-lessons. If they are longer the children get tired and slovenly. |
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Oct 16 2010 at 1:51pm | IP Logged
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Ok. That sounds a lot like copywork to me.
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Oct 16 2010 at 1:58pm | IP Logged
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As far as the memorization bit goes, I just wanted to add a bit from recent experience with dd (age 9, but with dyslexia, so writing at about 1st grade level)
I had written a passage for her copywork: "There are two types of eagles in North America: the bald eagle and the golden eagle. The bald eagle eats mainly fish while the golden eagle eats all kinds of meat."
As she was copying it, toward the end she got very excited and said "Mommy! I just wrote the word "eagle" without looking!" She was pretty excited about it.
So, I think that this skill of developing memory while copying comes as part of a natural progression for most. It is nice to know it is yet another benefit of copywork.
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Oct 16 2010 at 2:01pm | IP Logged
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Found the article in which Simply Charlotte Mason mentions transcription. I wanted to link it - Copywork, Transcription, Dictation.
The part on transcription:
Quote:
Transcription
Level: Grades 2–3
Focus: Preparation for spelling
Description: Once the student has mastered the mechanics of handwriting, he can start making the transition to concentrating on the spelling of the passages he is copying. Of course, he has been looking at the correct spelling all along, but in this stage he tries his hand at looking at/studying the word in the passage, then writing it from memory, and double checking his spelling right away. Rather than copying letter for letter, he begins to write whole words from memory, one or two at a time, as he works his way through the passage. Passages can be selected from good living books, poetry, and Scripture.
Other Benefits: More handwriting practice; reinforces correct punctuation and capitalization; cultivates the habit of looking at how words are spelled as you read; increases vocabulary through context; reinforces correct sentence structure; reinforces the habits of observation and attention |
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In re-reading, I see where I got confused, but I don't think SCM meant for transcription to mean anything other than copywork. They broke it out as something separate from what they were calling "copywork" already...which confused me and I probably read it hastily as well.  Since the focus states: preparation for spelling, I think I picked up on that key-word and thought did they mean ?dictation????? or do they mean ?copywork???? I think they were just trying to illustrate how to build from one skill to the next...but breaking them out that way confused me since I'd seen transcription as a term used before at Ambleside referring to copywork.
Glad Michele linked CM's use of the word and that I've figured that one out for the day!!! Now we can all sleep!
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Oct 16 2010 at 2:06pm | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
I think they were just trying to illustrate how to build from one skill to the next...but breaking them out that way confused me since I'd seen transcription as a term used before at Ambleside referring to copywork.
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That's what it sounds like to me, too.
Mackfam wrote:
Glad Michele linked CM's use of the word and that I've figured that one out for the day!!! Now we can all sleep! |
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Yay! 
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: Oct 16 2010 at 5:41pm | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
Mackfam wrote:
Glad Michele linked CM's use of the word and that I've figured that one out for the day!!! Now we can all sleep! |
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Yay! |
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Happy to oblige. 
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Michele Quigley
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Erin
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| Posted: Oct 17 2010 at 11:49pm | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
I do have some ideas for you that I employ with my 10 yo boy. ....
Here are some tools I'm using with this child to help him:
** Shorten the selection I read aloud significantly. I dropped back to 5 - 6 words only. I'll add more words once he's feeling more comfortable. |
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Had to laugh at this, he is only doing 3 words at a time!! He really needs to develop the habit of attention. Part of this is my fault as I have 'spoon-fed' too much.
Mackfam wrote:
** Spend an extra day studying the dictation. |
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My dc, particularly the boys can't see why they can't study and do the dictation immediately after, I'm telling them no, because they are meant to imprint on mind etc. Love your thoughts on studying and immediately doing dictation.
Mackfam wrote:
| Not sure if any of this would be applicable for your situation/son, Erin, but I thought I'd share because I can commiserate with this situation. |
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All three are totally applicable. Thank you 
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Jenifleur
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| Posted: Oct 18 2010 at 5:10pm | IP Logged
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Hi - could you direct me to the post that this post was inspired by? I am new here Thanks!
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Erin
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| Posted: Oct 19 2010 at 12:05am | IP Logged
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Jen's Language Arts Posts
You are in for a treat, and welcome
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Jenifleur
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| Posted: Oct 20 2010 at 10:26pm | IP Logged
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Thanks! I will check it out!
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Jen's Language Arts Posts
